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OwlFancier posted:Vote left wing get the iraq war. Well thanks, but neither of those are really compelling strategies that win people over to left leaning political thinking. What I'm taking aim at, badly, is a modern analogue of that "cap in hand to the IMF" line. It's got a weird cultural resonance of shame and guilt and failure and it comes out every drat time you have "Labour" and "economics" on the same page. It popped up in a beeb article someone recently shared here. Shoehorned in, despite being a complete non sequitur. If you had the time you could go into detail about how it's bollocks, the figures were inflated, nobody was holding a cap and everyone involved is now dead anyway, but that's useless because most people who use the line wouldn't even be able to tell you who held the cap in the first place. They aren't arguing with deliberate insincerity, it's just in our cultural bootloader now that [Labour economics] = [cap in hand to the IMF] The same will happen with Corbynism except the code will be [left wing grassroots uprising] = [brexit, coronavirus, boris, trump] and that'll be the angle of attack against every future left wing insurgency. If we want to another left wing uprising to flourish we need to permanently associate this last one with good things it did achieve. loving page snipe again... BR-116 is a 4,000km long network of highways in Brazil. Endjinneer fucked around with this message at 23:35 on Sep 22, 2020 |
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Sep 22, 2020 23:33
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What I am saying is that I don't think people who trot that out are interested or receptive to being convinced otherwise, they are saying it because it is somthing to say so they don't have to think, and can simply engage their pre-existing bias against anything left wing for whatever reason. I don't care what their reason is and I don't care to listen to them talk either, and your time is wasted on people like that. So make them hurt as best you can and make them go away. Hence the latter option. Like I don't think left wing politics is won on slogans or lost because someone said something stupid and short, it's won or lost on whole tides of information exposure in society, you saying or not saying something to some idiot who regurgitates whatever they heard on the news they drown themselves in every waking minute is not going to make a difference. So you might as well take your fun where you can get it and go to bed knowing you might have made that person's life a little bit more unpleasant today. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 23:41 on Sep 22, 2020 |
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Sep 22, 2020 23:36
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Vitamin P posted:
Having a second referendum as a compromise alternative to holding an election made some sense; it’s not going to lead to socialism now, but it might have limited the damage the next Left wing government would need to repair before it could make much of a start on that. The policy the election was run and lost on was the one Momemtum explicitly forced through conference, supported by pretty much no one else. This involved first an election, _then_ a second referendum with no agreed plan as to which way to campaign. So every interviewer was going to be focused on asking questions that couldn’t be honestly answered. And quite correctly, as it turned out, ignoring announcements of policies that weren’t going to happen; a party that can only say ‘I dunno’ to the biggest political question of the last 50 years was obviously not going to be coming a close second. Remember when everyone here thought the poll numbers would recover when the election laws kicked in? Turns out that only works if you have a message that people like when they get to hear it That was an obvious and entirely avoidable tactical blunder. Maybe consider acknowledging that, and commit to avoid doing anything similarly stupid in future , before giving up on the whole parliamentary socialism thing.
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Sep 22, 2020 23:39
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It's me, the person credulous enough to believe that journalists are actually brilliant geniuses that were only concerned with the best interests of the nation in their questioning.
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Sep 22, 2020 23:42
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radmonger posted:That was an obvious and entirely avoidable tactical blunder. Maybe consider acknowledging that, and commit to avoid doing anything similarly stupid in future , before giving up on the whole parliamentary socialism thing. When kier said that labour deserved to lose the last election did he specify why?
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Sep 22, 2020 23:43
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It appears they might actually have a puppet of sir Keith: https://twitter.com/MarcusWells_/status/1307939862851526657?s=19 (Ironically, on the left of the picture) 
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Sep 22, 2020 23:45
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NotJustANumber99 posted:When kier said that labour deserved to lose the last election did he specify why? Don't think so, think he just said "if you lose an election you deserve it" or similar. e: “Let’s be brutally honest with ourselves. When you lose an election in a democracy, you deserve to. You don’t look at the electorate and ask them: ‘What were you thinking?’ You look at yourself and ask: ‘What were we doing?’ vvvv my constituency is always pretty close, and was Tory for 7 years until we got rid of him in 2017. I would have felt bad about voting against the Labour MP but his response to the internal report has been pathetic. Lungboy fucked around with this message at 23:59 on Sep 22, 2020 |
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Sep 22, 2020 23:52
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On the subject of whether or not to vote Labour, how many seats are there where it will realistically make a difference anyway? I live in the toriest place imaginable, and I'm actually weirdly comforted by the fact it doesn't make a blind bit of difference whether I vote Labour or not, because my town is the deepest possible shade of blue anyway.
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Sep 22, 2020 23:53
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Bobby Deluxe posted:It appears they might actually have a puppet of sir Keith: This is truly gearing up to be the worst thing in television history. Even worse than the HIGNFY episodes they did on Zoom.
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Sep 23, 2020 00:04
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stev posted:This is truly gearing up to be the worst thing in television history. Going by the puppet of Greta it's just going to be lowest common denominator, punching down on whoever they can pick on. vvvv I fear it's going to be an awful lot worse than a wet fart. Zuckerberg, not exactly known for having a huge hooked nose, has a huge hooked nose. Lungboy fucked around with this message at 00:17 on Sep 23, 2020 |
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Sep 23, 2020 00:12
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stev posted:This is truly gearing up to be the worst thing in television history.
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Sep 23, 2020 00:14
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I'm sure the centrist dad brigade will love it.
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Sep 23, 2020 00:16
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OwlFancier posted:I'm sure the centrist dad brigade will love it. My late 60s centrist dad got very excited when he saw an advert for it and was then immediately deflated when he realised it was on BritBox. Kinda weird licencing choice really given the demos of streaming services vs 80s ITV shows.
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Sep 23, 2020 00:23
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My constituency (sheffield South East) is deep labour, entirely in love with Kier and before him was on the Owen Jones train. My mp is 70, voted for Iraq and honestly I never hear from him as the CLP and some other people do all the correspondence. I assume that's normal for ancient fossil blairite parachutes incase they open their mouths and a racism falls out in public. I joined momentum, but my labour membership expires next month and I cancelled my dd when Kier won. I doubt I'll resub and I honestly don't know if I'd vote Labour again. Green doesn't even run here anymore. They got destroyed in 2017. Plus they're kinda poo poo as well. It's just so... Despair inducing. I'll keep up with momentum and try to engage and signal boost left wing candidates but that's about all I can do. I don't know if there even is an answer to this evenings debate on the merits of holding your nose or saying gently caress you and the horse you rode in on. gently caress you feels better for now though. If my wife survives the inevitable insulin shortage in a few years we'll see where we are. Otherwise I think I'll just go for a long walk.
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Sep 23, 2020 00:38
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Seriously? The new Spitting Image is only on Britbox? That is hilarious. Well, at least we don’t have to worry about anyone watching it!
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Sep 23, 2020 00:44
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OwlFancier posted:What I am saying is that I don't think people who trot that out are interested or receptive to being convinced otherwise, they are saying it because it is somthing to say so they don't have to think, and can simply engage their pre-existing bias against anything left wing for whatever reason. OK, but everyone resorts to "rule of thumb" judgements and cognitive biases like that one because they don't have the time or energy to fully interpret all the facts all the time. Arguably our society is driving people to resort to their biases more and more by overloading them with information and allowing them less time for reflection. Everyone's an "idiot" sometimes, so "hurting all the idiots" leads to a pretty lonely utopia. If you understand and control biases in this environment it makes people pliable. From that angle, the "idiots" are victims of manipulation which our opponents certainly are not afraid to indulge in. Given that we don't own any newspapers or TV channels, we can't afford to surrender any other angles. That includes talking to "idiots" and beastly slogans. What you say person to person can sometimes cut through.
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Sep 23, 2020 00:53
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I mean I'm not going to tell you you can't do that but I really would not advise expending your effort on that, because I don't think you can cut through with slogans. I think your time is almost certainly worth more doing virtually anything else. Like as you said initially it might be possible if you have someone willing to sit down and listen but I have never known someone who just trots out cliches to be receptive to basically anything. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 01:17 on Sep 23, 2020 |
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Sep 23, 2020 00:56
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Comrade Fakename posted:Twisto’s encyclopaedic knowledge of London’s streets is just a cover for his planning for machine gun nest locations. Funny you should say that... I've always been of the opinion that certain estates and buildings are specifically set up for that. In particular there's one design of late-60s tower block - here it is in Canning Town:  and again in Stratford:  Other examples can be found in Edmonton, Lewisham and Peckham, and oads more were demolished in the mid-90s, particularly around west London. I've also heard the same basic thing can also be found in Birmingham and Manchester. They vary slightly in dimensions and shape but all share a couple of design peculiarities - no external balconies, windows that cover the entire width of two opposite sides, with steel composite panels under the windows, an *extremely* wide slipcast core (actually covering almost the entire width of the building instead of just the lift shafts and stairwells), with a complete steel frame supporting the floors and connected to external concrete columns, and very large cisterns on the roofs. They're *way* over-engineered for social housing, but intriguingly the same basic design - minus the large cistern but still with the heavy concrete pad for it on the roof - was also commonly used for municipal offices as well as housing (Lewisham Town Centre and the now-demolished Southwark Council buildings at Elephant and Castle, for example). Okay, so a semi-standard, pretty dull, sixties design happens to turn up all over London, big whoop right? Except the type *always* - and *only* - turn up next to, or in the middle of, major road and rail junctions. Sometimes, like at Lewisham, it's integrated into a town centre-y kind of deal with a shopping centre nearby, but often, like at Canning Town, it's just plonked down completely separate from any estate or other development. Now I'm not saying these are specifically set up as buildings that would make great observation points which could also be semi-fortified to protect London against advancing troops, but they definitely are that even if it weren't deliberate. (Also anyone who's travelled by road or foot into Canary Wharf and *not* noted how perfectly set up it is as an ambush location frankly lacks magic in their soul) goddamnedtwisto fucked around with this message at 01:21 on Sep 23, 2020 |
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Sep 23, 2020 01:18
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Seen on Facebook
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Sep 23, 2020 01:18
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https://twitter.com/TheMichaelMoran/status/1307622000156987393?s=19
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Sep 23, 2020 01:21
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.nm I kinda missed the plot on that one. Jaeluni Asjil fucked around with this message at 01:35 on Sep 23, 2020 |
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Sep 23, 2020 01:27
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I think it's the part where it's the seller's dead sister's knickers that Jose finds grim
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Sep 23, 2020 01:31
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Dabir posted:I think it's the part where it's the seller's dead sister's knickers that Jose finds grim Ah I didn't really notice that.
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Sep 23, 2020 01:33
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Strictly speaking they may not necessarily be the seller's sister's knickers, they may be selling their own knickers because their sister has died.
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Sep 23, 2020 01:35
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This looks like one of the fuckin Kennedys - with zero context I'd have no loving clue who it was meant to be lol
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Sep 23, 2020 02:08
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Pilchenstein posted:This looks like one of the fuckin Kennedys - with zero context I'd have no loving clue who it was meant to be lol E: Or a poo poo Clinton. Either way it's terrible. Bobby Deluxe fucked around with this message at 02:43 on Sep 23, 2020 |
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Sep 23, 2020 02:41
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I suddenly remembered this existed and now I have to show it to you lot so I don't die in seven days. Enjoy! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzcprRXkdpg
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Sep 23, 2020 02:58
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Dabir posted:I think it's the part where it's the seller's dead sister's knickers that Jose finds grim Specifically that they're unwashed
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Sep 23, 2020 03:03
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Pilchenstein posted:I suddenly remembered this existed and now I have to show it to you lot so I don't die in seven days. Enjoy! On that note, enjoy the replies to this: https://twitter.com/nparticipacion/status/1308532546322477061?s=21
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Sep 23, 2020 03:04
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Lol at the New statesman writer hoping to score reef points and getting owned https://twitter.com/CherylMorgan/status/1308495224923197441?s=19
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Sep 23, 2020 03:23
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I keep getting judith butler and julie bindel confused and it's very annoying because they seem like basically polar opposites.
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Sep 23, 2020 03:31
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Jose posted:Lol at the New statesman writer hoping to score reef points and getting owned Fair play letting someone repeatedly call you a dumb poo poo get printed. That's chutzpah. Good arguments in there too, especially glad to see her point out that TERF is a description and not a slur.
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Sep 23, 2020 04:40
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Same as many people posting in here: feel super-dispirited about politics right now. Torn between sticking with Labour and hoping some good could possibly come from that and feeling like I'm being played for a mug by a bunch of careerist shits who are implacably opposed to everything that I care about. Perhaps Biden eating poo poo in the November election will wake people up a bit? I'm more and more in agreement that we need a left-wing version of Ukip: for all their lack of electoral success, they've actually been the most effective political force of the 21st century in the Uk. They leveraged their influence to push a niche issue (leaving the EU) to the heart of Uk politics and forced an outcome in their favour, something that would have seemed impossible just 5-6 years ago.
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Sep 23, 2020 04:49
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You can't do a left wing UKIP though, UKIP only ever got anywhere because their aims aligned with the billionaires who own our media.
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Sep 23, 2020 05:30
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For that you’d need some actual left wing politicians and not just a bunch of Torys in cosplay desperate to relive the Elysium Age of New Labour.
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Sep 23, 2020 05:30
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I'm gonna remain a Labour member if only so I can claim moral superiority when the party inevitably fails yet again by thinking that there's some sort of desire for a "less cunty Conservatives" among the general population.
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Sep 23, 2020 06:27
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Pilchenstein posted:You can't do a left wing UKIP though, UKIP only ever got anywhere because their aims aligned with the billionaires who own our media. could still try though also media getting maybe less relevant in the age of twitter and poo poo
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Sep 23, 2020 07:11
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Pilchenstein posted:You can't do a left wing UKIP though, UKIP only ever got anywhere because their aims aligned with the billionaires who own our media. There's basically no solution to our current capitalist-run parliamentary system beyond burning it down and starting again, and I don't see that getting far on the most reactionary island around.
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Sep 23, 2020 07:36
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Jose posted:Lol at the New statesman writer hoping to score reef points and getting owned
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Sep 23, 2020 07:54
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Not So Fast posted:There's basically no solution to our current capitalist-run parliamentary system beyond burning it down and starting again, and I don't see that getting far on the most reactionary island around. Unless it’s changed since I was there last year, Japan still holds that title (although we’re making great strides to catch up). I’m normally more optimistic than most people ITT, but that’s just about done now. People on the left and centre aren’t remotely ready for any kind of major civil disturbance, and if there was one it would be crushed fast by the right, with the support of the armed forces, all of whom are absolutely ready for a major civil disturbance because it’s what they have wet dreams about. It’s correct I think that the Parliamentary route isn’t going to deliver socialism as things stand. So it’s a choice between waiting for things to get bad enough that enough people are driven to extremes for radical change or making our peace with the lovely system we have and trying to make the best of it. I’ve got my money on the former, given the number of potential candidates right now (Brexit, Climate Change and US/China tension going hot being the main ones). But things change fast and there’s always the possibility some new issue will come up that captures the public imagination and reconfigures the culture war along different battle lines.
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Sep 23, 2020 08:00
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