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Gabriel S. posted:I don't know if I would use the words happy. I would say that I am happy that victims of police brutality are finally getting justice. That's been specifically enabled by the thing you're complaining about. quote:Yes, that is true and I agree. I don't even understand where you're going with this. Can you reword this so it makes sense? Gabriel S. posted:According to conservatives, every major city is a hell hole of crime and constantly on fire. Because they're gullible racists who are scared of where minorities live and also need to believe that Democratic-run jurisdictions are failures to reinforce their politics? quote:To be absolutely clear, So now that you've walked literally your entire post back, I don't even know what you're about here.
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Sep 23, 2020 01:57
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Gabriel S. posted:What two things? I don't mean to be dense. I genuinely enjoyed your earlier explanations of policing or what a world would look like without police. The RNC and an entirely decentralized trend of people documenting actual police brutality in response to protests about police murders because nothing is being done to stop either of those things and because the administration and a significant portion of the population are actively encouraging them. Those are entirely equivalent things you have made a comparison between.
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Sep 23, 2020 02:01
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Jaxyon posted:That's been specifically enabled by the thing you're complaining about. Yes there are aspects of social media that are legitimately good such as sharing video police brutality. Aspects that are bad are things like the "social media bubble". Jaxyon posted:Because they're gullible racists who are scared of where minorities live and also need to believe that Democratic-run jurisdictions are failures to reinforce their politics? I have no doubt in my mind this is absolutely true. I also suspect many of them aren't necessarily naïve but if you are bombarded by videos, pictures, etc. of violence in cities. Who is to say otherwise? What I am saying is perception is reality.
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Sep 23, 2020 02:13
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Do you perhaps see why people might take issue with the idea that police murders in the US are, factually, staggeringly high compared to most other countries on the planet, and heavily racialized, and that there is an attempt by people to document the horrific reality of their conduct with an aim to preventing it, and then you turn up and go "well statistically you see it's not that bad and documenting police conduct is actually heavily emotive and not proper rational reasoning and people really should be happier that the police are less violent than they used to be" Do you see why that might actually not be at all a helpful contribution? Do you see what sort of person people might think you are when you do that?
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Sep 23, 2020 02:19
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The Oldest Man posted:From the OP Then what is thread for? Great - we all agree that police should be abolished, or at the least, undergo massive reforms. Now what?
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Sep 23, 2020 02:38
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OwlFancier posted:Do you perhaps see why people might take issue with the idea that police murders in the US are, factually, staggeringly high compared to most other countries on the planet, and heavily racialized, and that there is an attempt by people to document the horrific reality of their conduct with an aim to preventing it. Yes, I absolutely do. So much that I spent years studying this sort of stuff in university. OwlFancier posted:and then you turn up and go "well statistically you see it's not that bad and documenting police conduct is actually heavily emotive and not proper rational reasoning and people really should be happier that the police are less violent than they used to be" That wouldn't be just unhelpful it's incorrect. If that's your interpretation of my comment then I am little perplexed? To me, if we're going to solve anything it's important to know where we are today. In the present because you don't know where you are then how will you know if you've made in progress? It is true that violence, crime, etc. have gone down significantly in the United States especially since the 1980s which was well known for conflict. Policing standards have increased as well, they're not uniform across the Country but they have gone up overall. It is also true that police brutality along with systemic racism is in our institutions despite the abolition of slavery to the civil rights movement and a real problem today, right now in 2020. We see that on social media all the way to actual real world data. I don't see how either of things can't be simultaneously true nor do they contradict each other.
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Sep 23, 2020 02:46
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CelestialScribe posted:Then what is thread for? Great - we all agree that police should be abolished, or at the least, undergo massive reforms. Nothing, because we've not gotten to step 1. Like everything else in the way of progress, we don't even take the necessary first step and by the time everyone realizes it's as bad as we think its probably too late to do things in the normal incremental way that keeps people from clutching their pearls. We have examples of doing actual abolishing and semi abolishing across the Country and hopefully some of the local police abolish votes go well and we can see more examples to glean data from. If you want, you can answer your own question and let us know what you think post police world is gonna look like at all levels. Feel free to take your time to make an effort-post and we can have a discussion about it! That's what the thread is for! Gabriel S. posted:Yes, I absolutely do. So much that I spent years studying this sort of stuff in university. I'm going to say that your point about violence and crime is not corollary to any sort of action on the behalf of the police, or that policing standards have "increased" - you would have to quantify by what you mean by that. If anything police committing violence has become easier over the ears and the courts including the supreme courts have weakened civil liberties and grossly extended the latitude that police have and have made it harder to keep police accountable. Also, I'm going to say that 80's, 90's and early 2000's tough on crime policing LOOKS like it made a difference on crime but all it did was widen the net on how many people got thrown in jail. It looks like we had reduced crime and violence but in truth what we did is throw a LOT of low level non violent offenders in jail. Those who suffer from mental illness, have a substance abuse disorder, or lots of black people that were simply existing were thrown in jail. All we did is become more punitive, not become safer or less violent as a people because of any police efforts, I'd say our ability to serve our citizens through other institutions got vastly better and that is more connected than any policing links. Yuzenn fucked around with this message at 03:44 on Sep 23, 2020 |
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Sep 23, 2020 03:35
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Yuzenn posted:Nothing, because we've not gotten to step 1. I did.
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Sep 23, 2020 03:38
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CelestialScribe posted:I did. I went back and reviewed it, it seems that you did. My bad. The question I have is all these suggestions you have, this is to be done WITHOUT abolishing the current police? I'm going to go out on a limb here and say it's impossible to do all of those "reforms" the way our institutions are engrained in society, at least currently. If you think that abolishing first and then putting all those changes into action is the way to go then I think we agree.
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Sep 23, 2020 03:52
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Yuzenn posted:I went back and reviewed it, it seems that you did. My bad. Abolish and rebuild / reform current structure = I don't care which as long as it gets to the same outcome.
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Sep 23, 2020 03:56
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The abolish language is important because if you send the same men to the same building to check in then out into the same streets with the same guns they are going to keep doing the same things. It has to be a total tear down and creation of something new that might have some specific elements in common with what came before but is not just a fresh coat of paint over the bloodstains
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Sep 23, 2020 04:12
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Harold Fjord posted:The abolish language is important because if you send the same men to the same building to check in then out into the same streets with the same guns they are going to keep doing the same things. I think you can accomplish the second goal without the word "abolish", and without using something lukewarm like "reform".
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Sep 23, 2020 04:30
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CelestialScribe posted:I think you can accomplish the second goal without the word "abolish", and without using something lukewarm like "reform". How can anyone believe that this slug is engaging in anything resembling good faith? Why are there 75 posts responding to this sludge of a person?
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Sep 23, 2020 05:08
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litany of gulps posted:How can anyone believe that this slug is engaging in anything resembling good faith? Why are there 75 posts responding to this sludge of a person? Almost all your posts in this thread are zero effort grudgy nonsense. If you post any more you're threadbanned.
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Sep 23, 2020 05:22
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Gabriel S. posted:It is true that violence, crime, etc. have gone down significantly in the United States especially since the 1980s which was well known for conflict. Policing standards have increased as well, they're not uniform across the Country but they have gone up overall. This is the part you keep saying without any support. And since you studied it at the university level I'd assume you have that support. Meanwhile, Breonna Taylors murderers got away with it.
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Sep 23, 2020 19:18
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Jaxyon posted:Meanwhile, Breonna Taylors murderers got away with it. A just public safety system cannot be made from the one we have now. It can only be built on the ground where it once stood.
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Sep 23, 2020 20:31
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The Oldest Man posted:A just public safety system cannot be made from the one we have now. It can only be built on the ground where it once stood. Hey mods, can I change my thread title to ACAB and Abolish the Police and Courts? I feel like even having reform in the title is making it seem like there's some hope for this system. The walls in Breonna Taylor's dwelling got justice before she did.
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Sep 23, 2020 20:57
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It's really great how apparently the ideal form of public safety is assured by creating a class of people who have the right to break into your house and shoot you because they believe you might take objection to them breaking into your house. Congratulations to the land of the free on re inventing shogunate era japan. quote:In any case, the samurai performing the act had to prove that his action was right. After striking down his victim, the user was required to notify it to a nearby government officer, give his version of the facts and provide at least one witness who corroborated it, and he was expected to spend the next 20 days at home as a proof of contrition. The last one applied even after favorable verdict, although it is unclear whether it applied to the physical author of the death or his superior in case the kill was performed by proxy. Moreover, the homicidal weapon could be confiscated if an investigation was necessary or as a warning for a kill whose justification was feeble, and it was only given back after the 20 days.[1] Except possibly with even less oversight lol.
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Sep 23, 2020 21:15
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The Oldest Man posted:A just public safety system cannot be made from the one we have now. It can only be built on the ground where it once stood. While this thread discusses broken arms with posters who don't live in the US, the actual existing PD in Kentucky is has found that the one bad thing their officers did, in the process of murdering an innocent woman in their sleep and trying to frame her BF for a non-existent murder to cover their mistake, was to accidentally allow some bullets to touch a White Apartment. Currently that same police department is violating the 1st amendment with impunity.
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Sep 23, 2020 23:42
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I feel this post about sums it up:Real Mean Queen posted:I’m just annoyed whenever anyone brings up cop training any more. Have you ever had a job before? Do you remember how you got very cursory training on your first day or week, and then all the other questions you had got answered by burned out pieces of poo poo who had been at it for years and told you that the real way to do things was the opposite of the way you were trained? This is that.
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Sep 24, 2020 09:42
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fool of sound posted:Almost all your posts in this thread are zero effort grudgy nonsense. If you post any more you're threadbanned. He's right tho. CS is doing the thing that usually is only this explicit when it's white characters in political cartoons. "Not like that. Or that. Or that." I'm sure one day we'll find the perfect word they can imagine no one else taking issue with.
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Sep 24, 2020 13:37
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Harold Fjord posted:He's right tho. CS is doing the thing that usually is only this explicit when it's white characters in political cartoons. "Not like that. Or that. Or that." I'm sure one day we'll find the perfect word they can imagine no one else taking issue with. What are you talking about? I literally said I was in favor of abolishing the police a few posts ago. My point was that the word “abolish” may have bad connotations and turn people off. Like I’m sorry if that’s too spicy a take for you or whatever. Please learn to read.
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Sep 24, 2020 13:49
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CelestialScribe posted:What are you talking about? I literally said I was in favor of abolishing the police a few posts ago. My point was that the word “abolish” may have bad connotations and turn people off. Like I’m sorry if that’s too spicy a take for you or whatever. I can read subtext too. Even if it is entirely in good faith, at best what you are doing is repeatedly coming up with theoretical arguments on behalf of others that aren't here. And since they aren't your opinion, just this theoretical idea for others, it's conveniently impossible to persuade those others. I don't read you suggesting a bunch of alternatives, just repeated declarations of 'not good enough' and demand for more work from everyone else. You are demanding to be persuaded that other people will agree with something you have decided they will disagree with, it's frankly not a possibility. Harold Fjord fucked around with this message at 14:38 on Sep 24, 2020 |
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Sep 24, 2020 14:12
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Harold Fjord posted:I can read subtext too. Even if it is entirely in good faith, at best what you are doing is repeatedly coming up with theoretical arguments on behalf of others that aren't here. And since they aren't your opinion, just this theoretical idea for others, it's conveniently impossible to persuade those others. I don't read you suggesting a bunch of alternatives, just repeated declarations of 'not good enough' and demand for more work from everyone else. Look closer.
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Sep 24, 2020 20:50
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I mean, CS is an existing real person and there will likely be a ton of people just like him who will be asking a poo poo-zillion questions about every facet of police reform/abolishment. Even with the intent to be frustrating as hell, without that you won't be as easily prepared for actual pushback and discussion when it's really implimented.
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Sep 24, 2020 21:37
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ButterSkeleton posted:I mean, CS is an existing real person and there will likely be a ton of people just like him who will be asking a poo poo-zillion questions about every facet of police reform/abolishment. Even with the intent to be frustrating as hell, without that you won't be as easily prepared for actual pushback and discussion when it's really implimented. There are plenty of real Ben Shapiros too. Treating their arguments in good faith is counterproductive. Anyone who comes in saying "don't use the word 'abolish'" should be treated with that level of skepticism because it's pure concern trolling. I'm not going to engage with that; I'm going to engage with why they want to talk about edge-cases when the cops are murdering Black people every day and want to twist the discussion away from abolition of that murderous system. Why don't you want to use the word "abolish?" Optics? Or because you want a police force available to do violence to people on your behalf and abolition would end that? Confront your own need to have a murder force before you confront others' need not to be murdered.
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Sep 24, 2020 21:47
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I mean, this sounds funny, but do you think people will just accept what you say is true even with facts and statistics on your side? No matter what people will ask insanely specific and detailed scenarios and come to an abolitionist about it, and if you -really- believe in the reform, you must be ready to tackle those difficulties every day in and out. Or do you want people to abolish the police for you?
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Sep 24, 2020 21:48
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I think that if society cannot change until every last person is on board with it then nothing will ever change. At some point you just have to run roughshod over the holdouts. They won't change, they aren't interested in changing, they can only ever be an obstruction, a hindrance, societal dead weight.
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Sep 24, 2020 21:50
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People have been saying for decades that they support fixing the police. Saying you support things doesn't actually change them. Everyone on this board will say they oppose racism and will fight racists. Yet racism still exists.
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Sep 24, 2020 21:55
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ButterSkeleton posted:I mean, this sounds funny, but do you think people will just accept what you say is true even with facts and statistics on your side? No matter what people will ask insanely specific and detailed scenarios and come to an abolitionist about it, and if you -really- believe in the reform, you must be ready to tackle those difficulties every day in and out. So you're for police abolition but you're also an expert on the thinking of white supremacist reactionaries who will conjure up detailed hypotheticals to argue against it? It sounds like you should be the one making the argument to them then, not me.
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Sep 24, 2020 22:28
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The Oldest Man posted:I'm going to engage with why they want to talk about edge-cases when the cops are murdering Black people every day and want to twist the discussion away from abolition of that murderous system. If you aren't interested in talking about edge cases, you will never see police abolished. Period. Once again, even though I've said this a hundred times, I'm for abolishing police, and edge cases shouldn't stop that from happening, but in a thread that's focused on what happens after police are abolished, it makes sense to talk about those edge cases. Otherwise all we're doing in this thread is saying, "police should be abolished, yay!" What other discussion is there left to have?
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Sep 25, 2020 00:47
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CelestialScribe posted:If you aren't interested in talking about edge cases, you will never see police abolished. Period. Completely untrue. Plenty of things are enacted without clear answers for all cases. Nor do you have to figure all the edge cases out before they occur. They are not a substantial block to police aboltion. Also, people have addressed your edge cases. The reason why people don't treat you as a serious supporter is precisely because you, based on nothing, claim that these are the things which are roadblocks. quote:Once again, even though I've said this a hundred times, I'm for abolishing police, and edge cases shouldn't stop that from happening, but in a thread that's focused on what happens after police are abolished, it makes sense to talk about those edge cases. - How to actually enact police abolition. Because just saying on the internet "yeah I support reforms" is what white people in white countries have been doing for a hundred years. - Techniques for deescalation - How to ensure social work doesn't reinforce inequities through less violent means - Examples of good implementation, and opportunities for improvement. There's tons of discussion to have, but there's only one discussion you seem to want to have. Jaxyon fucked around with this message at 01:08 on Sep 25, 2020 |
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Sep 25, 2020 01:01
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By the way this is a good example of white supremacy, in the form of White Perfectionism. "This isn't the right time" "This isn't the right rhetoric" "We can't move forward until literally all the iterations and edge cases are figured out" Meanwhile, black people are being murdered.
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Sep 25, 2020 01:05
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When you cut the grass you don't worry about how it will grow back. Similarly I do not think you need to worry overly about how society might reconstruct a justice system because it is very difficult to imagine how it could be worse than the existing one, and the building blocks for how society actually functions without police are already there, in the day to day, in every action that does not involve the police. And soceties naturally construct methods of doing things which need doing. If you abolish a very bad system you create room for new, better ones to grow, you don't need to know the precise outcome in advance, you never have, that's not how societal change has ever worked. The reason people want to keep the police is either because 1. they understand what the police do and want them to keep doing it, or 2. they do not understand what the police do, and think they do important things that they do not do. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 01:39 on Sep 25, 2020 |
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Sep 25, 2020 01:08
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CelestialScribe posted:If you aren't interested in talking about edge cases, you will never see police abolished. Period. "If you don't solve all problems brought about by abolition to my satisfaction, it can't happen," is, literally, an argument that slave-owners and their advocates used to defend chattel slavery regarding both the problem of post-slavery unemployment for Blacks amid what was imagined to be a newly-devastated agrarian economy and the problem of reshaping an entire mercantile legal system that had twisted itself into thousands of knots to make slavery defensible in the context of an otherwise basically libertarian legal framework. Given that chattel slavery was abolished without satisfying their concerns, I don't think your position holds.
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Sep 25, 2020 01:34
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https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/local/2020/09/23/tennessee-state-trooper-ripping-mask-protester-refuted-video-evidence/3502692001/ ”A former Tennessee state trooper’s insistence that he never yanked the mask off a protester near the state Capitol has been refuted by surveillance footage and an eyewitness account from a fellow law enforcement officer, state records show.
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Sep 25, 2020 01:53
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Jaxyon posted:By the way this is a good example of white supremacy, in the form of White Perfectionism. Literally never said any of these things. The Oldest Man posted:"If you don't solve all problems brought about by abolition to my satisfaction, it can't happen," is, literally, an argument that slave-owners and their advocates used to defend chattel slavery regarding both the problem of post-slavery unemployment for Blacks amid what was imagined to be a newly-devastated agrarian economy and the problem of reshaping an entire mercantile legal system that had twisted itself into thousands of knots to make slavery defensible in the context of an otherwise basically libertarian legal framework. Literally never said any of these things. These things I'm mentioning aren't roadblocks. They're not reasons to stop police abolition. They're just, "here's what needs to happen at the same time". If you're going to completely abolish the police, people are going to ask about these things. Again, I think this falls into the category of discussing the mechanics of abolition like the OP suggests. Let me ask again: what is this thread for? If we agree that abolishing the police is a goal, but we're not talking about how that goal is implemented, what's left to discuss? Is this thread for sharing stories of police violence? If so, fine, but change the OP.
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Sep 25, 2020 01:56
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Jaxyon posted:- How to actually enact police abolition. Because just saying on the internet "yeah I support reforms" is what white people in white countries have been doing for a hundred years. These are the questions mentioned in the OP: quote:What does actual police reform look like? Do we actually need police? How do you go about enforcing laws with or without them?
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Sep 25, 2020 01:57
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CelestialScribe posted:Literally never said any of these things. Correct, you did not say exactly those things. I'm paraphrasing. That doesn't change what you're doing, which is classic White Perfectionism. CelestialScribe posted:These are the questions mentioned in the OP: See this poo poo? You asked what else there was to talk about. I told you, and now you are saying that can't be talked about. You're interested in having one narrow discussion, which will never be satisfied. Jaxyon fucked around with this message at 01:59 on Sep 25, 2020 |
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Sep 25, 2020 01:57
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Jaxyon posted:Correct, you did not say literally those things. I'm paraphrasing. If that's the case, then so is the OP: quote:What does actual police reform look like? Do we actually need police? How do you go about enforcing laws with or without them?
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Sep 25, 2020 01:58
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