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DrDraxium posted:Sounds like that sweet spectacle you can get from Warcry, but with a bit more granularity and crunch, which is fine by me. Pretty much, but remember that you can also play a 2d version of necromunda which needs less terrain and is still fun.
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Sep 24, 2020 16:31
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Doesn't 2D ZM play require an entire board of terrain though? It doesn't have to be 3D terrain but I thought you needed the entire board to be marked-out corridors, walkways, chambers, and such, usually using cardboard tiles.
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Sep 24, 2020 16:35
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Torquemada posted:If your friends are chill, it’s excellent: corollary, one rules lawyer/power gaming rear end in a top hat will land you in jail for murder. I've never understood this argument. People use it all the time, and it never makes a lick of sense. "Chess is great, unless your opponent is a dick and constantly uses his queen." "CS:GO is amazing, as long as you're not some try hard using automatic weapons" "Poker is balanced, as long as your opponents aren't rear end in a top hat who raise before they make a hand". Any game system that can be broken within minutes by a lone individual trying to understand it, and then using his experience to try and make optimal choices is trash. Maybe its really fun as long as people don't do that. Tic-Tac-Toe can be fun if neither person has any idea what they are doing. However, because you can completely break it with the simplest of strategies is proof-positive that the tic-tac-toe ruleset is not good. The same logic should apply to any game. Hold the designers to some higher standards.
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Sep 24, 2020 16:47
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You can play games with personal goals other than to win the most times possible. I agree that a game that instantly falls to pieces as soon as you try-hard isn't good, but Necromunda is an endlessly-complicated narrative game that is an adjunct to a collecting and modeling hobby. It isn't like tic-tac-toe except in the sense that it apparently isn't very well-balanced.
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Sep 24, 2020 16:50
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If I understand what's being said, Necromunda sounds more like an RPG than a competitive wargame. (But is better balanced than Inquisitor.)
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Sep 24, 2020 17:11
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moths posted:If I understand what's being said, Necromunda sounds more like an RPG than a competitive wargame. (But is better balanced than Inquisitor.) Agreed. (Agreed.)
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Sep 24, 2020 17:23
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DrDraxium posted:Sounds like that sweet spectacle you can get from Warcry, but with a bit more granularity and crunch, which is fine by me. Necromunda is Blood Bowl + Kill Team and its cool and good. All you really need is a gang which you can get a starter gang for $35 which is pretty affordable. You're gonna need lots of terrain though to make things fun, but it doesn't need to be expensive as heck GW plastic terrain. Get creative and just take some trash or recyclables and paint them and blammo there's your starter terrain. Glue some popsicle sticks to some coffee cans and then spraypaint it. As mentioned the only book you have to have is the rulebook, and... you know... these things are online. Only buy the book if you really want to have a fancy physical copy. Not to mention that if you build your list in battlescribe, you can have it print out basically everything for you. So you just need to be aware of the core rules, unless you wanna run some fancy campaign and then buy that book.
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Sep 24, 2020 17:49
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How do the contemporary Necromunda rules compare to the ones from the 90s?
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Sep 24, 2020 20:19
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PeterWeller posted:How do the contemporary Necromunda rules compare to the ones from the 90s? I haven't played yet with the new rules, but from reading them... still a bit random, but not nearly as random? I mean, I remember watching a game of old Necromunda where both players got to field just two random gang members, for a shootout on an empty table. One gang turned up with their heavy, the other one "chose" two brawlers with close combat weapons. You can guess how that turned out, and how fun it was. Especially in a proper campaign. I think the very worst random gameplay like that is filed down a bit. The miniatures are great, and that's basically why I'm painting up some for post-covid gaming.
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Sep 24, 2020 20:29
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Mugaaz posted:I've never understood this argument. People use it all the time, and it never makes a lick of sense. I understand your point, but your analogies are terrible.
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Sep 24, 2020 20:38
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Ya'll ever play kind of team and think "I sure do wanna die" lmao
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Sep 24, 2020 22:35
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lilljonas posted:I haven't played yet with the new rules, but from reading them... still a bit random, but not nearly as random? I mean, I remember watching a game of old Necromunda where both players got to field just two random gang members, for a shootout on an empty table. One gang turned up with their heavy, the other one "chose" two brawlers with close combat weapons. You can guess how that turned out, and how fun it was. Especially in a proper campaign. Oh man, it's so random, but I kinda love the shootout from old Necromunda. It could be brutal, but most of your gang was safe back at home. The quickdraw mini-game was fun. The actual shootout was over really quickly. It often led to hilarious results. And when you were done, you got to go make money and shop for more gear.
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Sep 25, 2020 00:58
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PeterWeller posted:How do the contemporary Necromunda rules compare to the ones from the 90s? My group was very active playing the Community Edition of old munda right up until the release of Necro17. Almost all of us love the new game. The main differences: - gangs now have very different starting stats, fighter options, and gear, instead of the same start/skewed development model of before - players alternate activating fighters. Each fighter takes two actions and you can use Leaders and the Heavy equivalent to group activate more at once to take coordinated actions - XP is now spent on chosen advances instead of getting random advances at pre defined intervals For me, Necro17 is a great tactical game, but the campaign experience is really damaged by the changes. We used to play campaigns that would last months and involve dozens of battles played by each gang. In Necro17, a gang is pretty close to optimised from the very outset, and it takes a bit of cash and a couple of advancements to make your dudes all into stone cold killers, meaning that games rapidly become heavily skewed into “which vicious champion build gets to do its thing first” and cause the other gang to flee out of self preservation. In my opinion the notion of Necro being about chump gangers slowly becoming competent has been entirely lost. Juves and Gangers are now pretty much just warm bodies and the entire game revolves around Champions. The game has really poor underdog balancing mechanisms compared to Old munda, so it’s much harder for a new gang to win against a developed one. That said the game has hundreds of funky weapons and wargear items, the rules are characterful and exciting, and as I said - the tactical experience of the game is really excellent.
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Sep 25, 2020 09:37
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PeterWeller posted:How do the contemporary Necromunda rules compare to the ones from the 90s? To expand on what ineptmule wrote, when NM17 released, a buddy and I signed up to play at Adepticon. We didn't have time to read the rules prior to the event, so we were going to drop. The organizer wasn't too worried about us slowiung things down for other players so we stayed in, and it turns out, we barely noticed a difference between the OG NM and NM17. There are some minor stat changes, and the gangs themselves have slightly different structures now, but if you've played the original, you'll be familiar enough with the new. The one thing that really needs to be stated though is that NM17 can be infuriatingly poorly written and organized. Be prepared to be bouncing around between books and finding contradictory and/or extremely vague rules that will cause extreme consternation.
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Sep 25, 2020 12:41
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Zaphod42 posted:Necromunda is Blood Bowl + Kill Team and its cool and good. Cool thanks for that and thanks others for contributing to the discussion re: starting up. I have a bunch of terrain from Kill Team and some decent organic stuff to throw in so that shouldn't be an issue. Space cops seem like my jam so I'll see if I can pick em up somewhere and get the book too. Cheers!
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Sep 25, 2020 13:08
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Indolent Bastard posted:Or use the Necromunda Community Edition Rulebook and Outlanders Community Edition for free on Yaktribe and skip the eternal purchasing of new books from GW. Please don't steal as your first impulse.
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Sep 25, 2020 14:11
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PeterWeller posted:How do the contemporary Necromunda rules compare to the ones from the 90s? Old Necromunda gangs develop in three phases: 1: A bunch of complete scrubs who flail around with bad weapons and equipment and getting exceptionally random results 2: A competent team who know what they are doing and have some areas of expertise and some good tech 3: A bunch of utter badasses, with one or two gangs having run away with things and most of the gang members being able to take on Space Marines at 1:1 odds. Newcromunda starts off with different stats for each gang and in doing so almost completely skips step 1 of the game. The two obvious cases are that Goliath gangers and above get Strength and Toughness 4, and that Van Saar Juves are old BS 3, Gangers are BS 4, and Champions (replacing heavies) are BS 5 but only WS 3 (using classic stats). But by restricting ganger skills it keeps out of phase 3. The thing is that Phase 2 is probably the most fun and least frustrating for both sides which is why they did it - but most of the best stories come from phase 1's incompetence with some of the rest come from phase 3's utter badassery. So you have better games and worse campaigns.
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Sep 25, 2020 14:13
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Better games and worse campaigns is a very good short summary. In terms of the bigger picture, Necromunda has received so much support in the form of minis and rules, it completely eclipses the first edition. It’s very much a positive thing for the Necromunda game and community. House rule the stuff that annoys you and you’ll have a good time.
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Sep 25, 2020 14:58
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I have played so many short or abandoned Specialist Games campaigns over the years that starting with a fun and flavorful gang is so much better than never getting there.
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Sep 25, 2020 15:20
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Thanks for all the responses! What makes the tactical experience better? Is it the more competent gangers, or the bigger variety of gear, or both? Also, neonchamelion, my experience was that phase 3 was more about a handful of complete bad-asses who managed to survive all the culling in phase 1 and 2, surrounded by whatever scrubs players could afford out of their dwindling cash supplies.
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Sep 25, 2020 15:57
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PeterWeller posted:Thanks for all the responses! For me it’s the change to alternating activations. (And tactics cards, but they have some problems of their own.)
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Sep 25, 2020 16:18
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Lord_Hambrose posted:Please don't steal as your first impulse. I believe indolent bastard is referring to the original NCR and Outlanders which were a great resource for the long OOP NM, though I could be wrong.
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Sep 25, 2020 16:39
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berzerkmonkey posted:I believe indolent bastard is referring to the original NCR and Outlanders which were a great resource for the long OOP NM, though I could be wrong. Don't buy this list of books and use the illegal one instead is pretty clear. Edit: My mistake, the new illegal community book uses the same acronym as the original NCR and I was confused. Still, I think the intention was pretty clear.
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Sep 25, 2020 20:11
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Lord_Hambrose posted:Please don't steal as your first impulse. The intention was to avoid the new books. I dislike the habit of GW selling you a game and then bleeding you with loads of additional books. Do you HAVE to buy them? No. Are we gaming nerd completionists? Yes. 😕 Indolent Bastard fucked around with this message at 00:51 on Sep 26, 2020 |
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Sep 26, 2020 00:45
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I was a completionist right up until they obviated all my Gang Wars and the Core book. With literally the next releases after it. Fortunately that happened comparatively early in the game's cycle.
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Sep 26, 2020 00:50
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Even if you are a completionist, they keep making it completely unfeasible to play with all these separate books. Doesn't matter what game system it is, I'm not lugging around more than a core book + my faction book. I'm fine with adding more rules than that, but then there needs to be a single location for digitally having access to all the rules in a concise way. You can sell me infinite books with good fluff alone. You don't need to hide rules in there. Feel free to print rules in the book as well, some people love paper rules; but make them accessible digitally so I can access it via phone when actually playing.
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Sep 26, 2020 03:46
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I feel like GW and Forgeworld turn a semi-blind eye to the  edition because on some level they recognize that it boosts sales. Blood Bowl was kept afloat for decades as a fan project before it was reabsorbed into mainline GW - hopefully they learned something about symbiotic relationships from that.
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Sep 26, 2020 04:19
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Don't ever dare to mention on their FB groups that third parties and rules compendium kept their abandoned lines afloat after they were abandoned. I got one of the developers from AT on my rear end for saying GW was ungrateful and that they always meant to relaunch the range it just happened after a half-dozen companies launched 6mm lines and proved that the market was still profitable.
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Sep 26, 2020 13:34
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Oh, they are definitely very helpful. I personally use the NCR for looking things up, but I also own all the books. I don't think it is necessary that everyone in every play group needs them all by any means, but you can at least get the corebook and the book with your gang. Talking about them on official places is rude as hell. Letting the designers know you don't respect their work and would rather them lose their jobs is loving rough.
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Sep 26, 2020 14:13
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Lord_Hambrose posted:Talking about them on official places is rude as hell. Letting the designers know you don't respect their work and would rather them lose their jobs is loving rough. GW is posting record profits, isn't it? It seems to me like the cost of the books is unreasonable. If they really wanted to charge a fee for the rules for every player, they should put out cheap black and white softback copies. Having the only available rules be a series of 10 $40 hardback books just to get the rules for a game that already requires you to buy paints and miniatures is frankly untenable. Having $40 books as like the fancy "collector's edition" rules that are hardback and full color and look great, that's fine, but having that as the ONLY rules product they sell is bad. And now they have digital but its massively overpriced. If digital was half what it cost (costs them zero to produce, only R&D) then I'd say everything was fair. Literally EVERY person I know who has gotten into the hobby borrowed / copied / downloaded the rules at some point to get into the hobby. Telling someone it costs $400 to play means nobody new will ever play. GW makes way more money when more people play. In lieu of them offering a free rules pdf, I don't think its hoping that the game makers will lose their jobs to recognize you can't afford all the rules. There's a reason 40k and D&D are now offering free core rules. https://www.warhammerdigital.com/all-products/necromunda-rulebook-epub-2018.html This is highway robbery for a digital rulebook, I'm sorry but that's just completely unreasonable. $40 loving dollars for a digital pdf. Should be $20 max. Really the core rules should be free if they want people to join the hobby. You can still sell a $40 hardcover version for people with money to blow. E: And its not like those 10 $40 books last you for life, in just 3 years they'll all be made entirely obsolete and then you can't even re-sell them to other gamers. Zaphod42 fucked around with this message at 17:37 on Sep 26, 2020 |
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Sep 26, 2020 17:31
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NC Wyeth Death Cult posted:...a half-dozen companies launched 6mm lines and proved that the market was still profitable. Let me correct you there. 6mm sci-fi poo poo is horribly unprofitable unless you're hitching your line to the Epic bandwagon in some way. And even then you won't be making a killing unless you have a fully developed line. The only non-Epic adjacent line to have any degree of success in recent years has been Dropzone Commander and they went into it big.
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Sep 26, 2020 19:03
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Zaphod42 posted:GW is posting record profits, isn't it? GW is posting record profits despite you claiming they're doing everything wrong. Have you considered that what they're doing works and you might be the idiot?
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Sep 26, 2020 22:24
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Booley posted:GW is posting record profits despite you claiming they're doing everything wrong. Have you considered that what they're doing works and you might be the idiot? He's complaining that GW is maximizing profits at the cost of making it lovely to try and play their games. You don't have to defend the poor wittle corporation from mean ol' criticism, they pay PR and CM to do that.
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Sep 26, 2020 22:40
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Cease to Hope posted:He's complaining that GW is maximizing profits at the cost of making it lovely to try and play their games. You don't have to defend the poor wittle corporation from mean ol' criticism, they pay PR and CM to do that. I'm not, it is lovely. What I read him as saying is that their business model doesn't work, when it clearly does.
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Sep 26, 2020 22:49
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Booley posted:I'm not, it is lovely. What I read him as saying is that their business model doesn't work, when it clearly does. He didn’t say that either.
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Sep 26, 2020 22:52
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Booley posted:I'm not, it is lovely. What I read him as saying is that their business model doesn't work, when it clearly does. What I'm saying is that clearly people copying the rules from other people is not putting the people making the games out of a job  I definitely didn't say anything about the business model not working, lmao. How are people so bad at context? I literally quoted a post saying that it was rude to designers to imply you wanted them out of a job.
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Sep 26, 2020 22:55
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GW pay for rules model is one thing they never gave up, even after they otherwise stopped acting like it was 1990. I wonder why they kept that weird throwback attitude.
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Sep 26, 2020 23:00
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Crackbone posted:GW pay for rules model is one thing they never gave up, even after they otherwise stopped acting like it was 1990. I wonder why they kept that weird throwback attitude. Selling books gives money, not selling books risks the money. It seems risky? 
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Sep 26, 2020 23:04
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Schadenboner posted:Selling books gives money, not selling books risks the money. It seems risky? Sure, but my point is ~5 years ago when they were still run by that moron Kirb, they refused to change at all. Once he left they changed course on pretty much everything, except that. I dunno, maybe the book numbers are phenomenal, but I'd be shocked if it was a profit center for them.
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Sep 26, 2020 23:16
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But again, you can still sell $40 books as a premium product while offering options. Free black and white rules pdf or even a reasonably priced ebook doesn't mean nobody will buy the hardcover. Just as the existence of piracy all throughout GW's run hasn't stopped them from selling books. Unless they're making gangbusters sales on those ebooks it doesn't make sense to me as is. Most of their income is plastic, no? Zaphod42 fucked around with this message at 05:34 on Sep 27, 2020 |
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Sep 26, 2020 23:38
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