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Kavak posted:Has any of the recently released nWoD stuff been good? I stopped following any of it after Beast. I'm not sure of the time line but I think most of it outside of Beast is okay to great. Changeling 2e is pretty good, Geist 2e is mostly great with one glaring organizational flaw. Dark Eras 2 I haven't read through completely but seems largely good just like the last one. Signs of Sorcery, Nameless & Accursed, Shunned by the Moon are good. I haven't heard much one way or another about and haven't yet read Spilled Blood. When did Thousand Years of Night come out? That was pretty okay.
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Sep 26, 2020 05:10
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What was the problem with Geist 2nd?
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Sep 26, 2020 05:18
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Kavak posted:What was the problem with Geist 2nd? Every power creates a Condition and all the Conditions are at the back of the book, so the powers section doesn’t tell you what the powers actually do.
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Sep 26, 2020 05:22
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Rand Brittain posted:Every power creates a Condition and all the Conditions are at the back of the book, so the powers section doesn’t tell you what the powers actually do.
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Sep 26, 2020 05:43
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Anyone up to F&F the Contagion Chronicles?
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Sep 26, 2020 05:45
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psudonym55 posted:It's basically only useful if you want to play a crossover game involving the God-Machine. Every scenario in the book is just the God-Machine has broken/stopped working in some way Yeah, the Contagion Chronicle was marketed as "the crossover book" and it in no way is. It's "the book for playing games against this specific new type of antagonist," and it just so happens that you layer its character type onto some other gameline's character type. If you don't specifically want to be mobilizing against the Contagion the book has nothing for you, and even if you do want to specifically be mobilizing against the Contagion, it fails to communicate any concrete sense of what the Contagion is or what ties outbreaks together. If I line up a set of abyssal intrusions from Mage you can see the throughline: they're maddeningly abstract anomalies. God-Machine projects: they're faceless works of occult industry that grind individuals underfoot. Contagion outbreaks... well, most (but not all) of them have some side effect that spreads contagiously and... that's it mostly. Things just go bad-weird. Sometimes this means summoning a mummy-lord from another dimension. Sometimes this means a Promethean eats an angel and becomes a baby parasitic God-Machine. Sometimes this means a historical king rises from torpor as a vampire with an aura that makes people around him xenophobic and insular. These are all manifestations of the same ill-defined phenomenon, somehow.
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Sep 26, 2020 07:00
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Kavak posted:Has any of the recently released nWoD stuff been good? I stopped following any of it after Beast. So beast was March 30th, 2016. Promethean2 was August of that year and is the best WOD I've interacted with, Mage2 was May of that year and is the Mage edition I have the highest tolerance for, and Changeling2 came out in 2019 and rules pretty hard. I think DTD is the only nwod thing I really like that precedes Beast.
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Sep 26, 2020 14:31
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Man I really stopped paying attention. I'll admit that part of the reason I checked out was because I looked at the Tilt and Condition subsystems and bounced off them, and another part was my overall taste in games and settings changing and leading me back to Masquerade.
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Sep 26, 2020 14:45
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Kavak posted:Has any of the recently released nWoD stuff been good? I stopped following any of it after Beast. All the Mage: the Awakening 2E books (Mage 2 core, Signs of Sorcery, Nameless and Accursed) have been awesome. Top tier stuff, imo. Secrets of the Covenant for Vampire: the Requiem was one of the best books in the line, but I haven't enjoyed any of the Requiem releases without Rose Bailey's involvement that followed. Dark Eras was hit and miss, but some of my favorite ones were Mage eras: To the Strongest, the Sundered World, The Devil and the Deep Blue Sea. For the core line, Chronicles of Darkness: The Hurt Locker was really really good. Geist 2e was really well written, but the layout with conditions made the powers hard to follow.
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Sep 26, 2020 15:33
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I've enjoyed most of the recent Night Horrors books I've read. You get some great antagonists in there (and some less so, but overall they're worth it).
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Sep 26, 2020 15:58
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Kavak posted:Man I really stopped paying attention. I'll admit that part of the reason I checked out was because I looked at the Tilt and Condition subsystems and bounced off them, and another part was my overall taste in games and settings changing and leading me back to Masquerade. I mean, the tilt/condition subsystem sucks. I really, really like Promethean, but I think as a game it's really held back by some original sins dating back to the very beginning of WOD in the 80s. I sincerely think that if I could go back in time I'd tell my past self to, instead of GMing, take like 3-4 weeks to excise the entire base system and convert all the themes and promethean-specific mechanics into Blades in the Dark or Apocalypse World or something. Transit, which is designed for spaceship AIs, I think already provides a baseline for making refinements better.
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Sep 26, 2020 16:06
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Yeah, Night Horrors are good, seconding that Changeling 2e is excellent (even if it has the same "figure out what your actual abilities are based on one-off lines at the ends of sections about other mechanics" problem that plagues like, Werewolf or Demon), the Changeling supplement Oak, Ash, and Thorn is also great. Also it's not "WoD" per se but it's WW/OP, but Scion 2e rules insanely hard, just nothing but absolute S-tier content for every book so far.
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Sep 26, 2020 16:08
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Tulip posted:I really, really like Promethean, but I think as a game it's really held back by some original sins dating back to the very beginning of WOD in the 80s. Like what?
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Sep 26, 2020 16:23
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I have enjoyed several of the night horrors books.Kavak posted:Like what? There's several hundred dice pools that cover less than what modern RPGs do with 4 or 5, there's significant imbalances between the value of different stats if a GM isn't really putting their thumb on the scale to make things come up, combat is both a slog and rocket tag, progression is a drag, and I think I'm out of things that are 'the core mechanics.'
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Sep 26, 2020 16:39
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Tulip posted:I have enjoyed several of the night horrors books. So the problem's less with Promethean specifically and more with CofD/nWoD as a whole. That's fair. Gonna second everything for Mage 2e being strong, Changeling 2e being real good overall with a couple subsystems being wonky (oneiromancy/hedge-sculpting, pledges are a lot less interesting), and Dark Eras being a mixed bag but with some really high highs. Also going to agree that most of the supplements that have come out for Vampire 2e since the corebook have not been great, and Hunter 2e was a big letdown after Hunter 1e was so strong and vivid and versatile. And of course there was Deviant: the Renegades, the new gameline that launched after Beast, which due to the plodding development schedule still isn't available to non-backers or in post-layout non-manuscript form. Deviant is the real inheritor to the spirit of Hunter 1e, a lower-powered gameline that's bursting at the seams with different possibilities, that actively invites you to customize and populate it with crazy things and new ideas. It probably still won't come out to non-backers for at least a few months, but whenever it does, pick it up. It's good. And if the Condition system bothers you about CofD, Deviant doesn't remove it, it's still there, but here's the list of new Deviant-specific Conditions introduced by the corebook: 1. End Stage That's the whole list.
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Sep 26, 2020 17:42
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Oh yeah that's a good point, Deviant looks good as hell based on the backer manuscripts but it's operating on "Exalted Kickstarter" pacing right now. Once it exists, A+
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Sep 26, 2020 17:51
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Chernobyl Peace Prize posted:Oh yeah that's a good point, Deviant looks good as hell based on the backer manuscripts but it's operating on "Exalted Kickstarter" pacing right now. Once it exists, A+ Yeah, I just want the book. The mage game I’m running is at the end of the story, and I was hoping to run Deviant for something in between. I could still, but the manuscript form is the worst to run from. Geist is the most likely, but I’m going to have to print cheat sheets for all those conditions.
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Sep 26, 2020 18:46
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They hosed up Hunter 2e? 
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Sep 27, 2020 01:48
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Still reading House of Tremere, I don't understand this Saulot fellow. Apparently he and the demon Kupala are responsible for the Tremere becoming vampires. They manipulated them into it. So...he wanted to be eaten? Why? So he could come back and do stuff a thousand years later? Why did he need Tremere's body for this? The book says you can just make up whoever Root of All and Stars Above are for your game. I wanna make up somebody else just because this doesn't make any sense and according to the wiki there are a ton of retcons and nobody knows what the hell is going on with Saulot. When I got into WoD I was told everybody hates the Tremere because they ate the nice healer vampires. That seems to be one account of Saulot but it's just one of many that don't line up with this saintly image.
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Sep 27, 2020 04:19
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NikkolasKing posted:Still reading House of Tremere, I don't understand this Saulot fellow. Apparently he and the demon Kupala are responsible for the Tremere becoming vampires. They manipulated them into it. They do a big swerve on Saulot from "saintly healer" to "secretly evil" and back to "saintly healer" again over the course of the line.
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Sep 27, 2020 04:29
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Rand Brittain posted:They do a big swerve on Saulot from "saintly healer" to "secretly evil" and back to "saintly healer" again over the course of the line. Never trust a Tremere 
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Sep 27, 2020 05:59
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NikkolasKing posted:When I got into WoD I was told everybody hates the Tremere because they ate the nice healer vampires. That seems to be one account of Saulot but it's just one of many that don't line up with this saintly image. The Tremere are, in part, hated/distrusted not just because Mr Tremere himself ate the soul of the saintly Saulot (the fact he may or may not have been so saintly is largely irrelevant: everyone thought or chose to believe he was) , but because he then had this clan round up and kill every single Salubri they could find. That's the kind of brutal application of wide-scale violence that makes everyone a bit nervous about whether they might be next.
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Sep 27, 2020 06:29
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NikkolasKing posted:When I got into WoD I was told everybody hates the Tremere because they ate the nice healer vampires. That seems to be one account of Saulot but it's just one of many that don't line up with this saintly image. 
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Sep 27, 2020 08:49
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I love that there are at least two versions of this  They really are my favorite Clan. Some people thought they were p dumb for giving up magehood to be vampires but, hey, living forever is awesome and magic is doomed, anyway. Although the wiki and other people I've talked to say the Tremere House were Sorcerers, not true Awakened Mages. I'm not sure what that idea comes from since I've seen no sources for it. LatwPIAT posted:The Tremere are, in part, hated/distrusted not just because Mr Tremere himself ate the soul of the saintly Saulot (the fact he may or may not have been so saintly is largely irrelevant: everyone thought or chose to believe he was) , but because he then had this clan round up and kill every single Salubri they could find. That's the kind of brutal application of wide-scale violence that makes everyone a bit nervous about whether they might be next. I guess hat makes sense. The Cammies took their help, though. I haven't read much about the founding of the Camarilla and Anarchs, though. Maybe they were really desperate.
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Sep 27, 2020 15:54
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LatwPIAT posted:The Tremere are, in part, hated/distrusted not just because Mr Tremere himself ate the soul of the saintly Saulot (the fact he may or may not have been so saintly is largely irrelevant: everyone thought or chose to believe he was) , but because he then had this clan round up and kill every single Salubri they could find. That's the kind of brutal application of wide-scale violence that makes everyone a bit nervous about whether they might be next. Right. Saulot and Salubri's claimed moral leanings were simply propaganda masking the fact the rest of the Kindred were extremely nervous that there was suddenly this new group of vampires with a new form of blood magic that broke all the rules and proceeded to murder nearly an entire clan with it. This was weird and scary and because of their location they riled a clan that was known for being easy to provoke in the Tzimisce and the Tremere making Gargoyles to protect themselves being made out of Nosferatu and Gangrel didn't help matters any. You have a clan whose entire thing was being made out of other clans.
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Sep 27, 2020 16:08
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LatwPIAT posted:The Tremere are, in part, hated/distrusted not just because Mr Tremere himself ate the soul of the saintly Saulot (the fact he may or may not have been so saintly is largely irrelevant: everyone thought or chose to believe he was) , but because he then had this clan round up and kill every single Salubri they could find. That's the kind of brutal application of wide-scale violence that makes everyone a bit nervous about whether they might be next. There's also a running theme in VtM where things were good once and are becoming increasingly worse, bastardized as they get closer to Gehenna. The Salubri, the healers and balanced in terms of humanity and power, is devoured by the Tremere, vampires obsessed with power and domination to the point that they gave up real power for fast temporal power. The Cappadocians, philosopher necromancers who wanted to ultimately dethrone God, are replaced by incestuous gangster necromancers. There's a lot of stuff about Salubri being bad, the Baali, and selfish, Wu Zao Salubri, but the take originally and ultimately is that poo poo's getting worse. I think in terms of metaplot it ultimately comes down to Salubri is in it for Salubri and everything he does is one variant of him trying to find the cheat code that allows him to beat God and/or the wheel of ages. EDIT: I think a simpler way to frame it is that Saulot ultimately wants to ascend his condition and the Tremere gave up a chance at ascension for "immortality" and temporal power free of paradox. The Cappadocians ultimately wanted to ascend the bridge between mortality and death by subsuming God and the Giovanni just want to destroy the veil between life and death so they can rule as kings. It's very much the big concept vs. the lazier, quicker path to power. RocknRollaAyatollah fucked around with this message at 17:24 on Sep 27, 2020 |
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Sep 27, 2020 17:17
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Then again, the V20 take is that the Salubri think of themselves as very holy because they try to keep the mortal herd healthy before they consume it, so.
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Sep 27, 2020 17:29
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And on the other other other hand, one version of their clan weakness is that they can't feed from unwilling blood.
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Sep 27, 2020 17:37
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All vampires are dicks to some degree, however the Tremere are top-tier assholes, although not as much as daddy Saulot himself.
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Sep 27, 2020 17:48
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There was definitely some pushback as the line went on where in early editions you'd see a bunch of vampires, even really old ones, have Humanity 10. Menele/Meneleus has it in Chicago if I remember right. (Chicago's Monitor Rebekah does too, but she starts dropping when she finds out how much fun she can have going back to her old ways.) I think the direction that the only vampires who could possibly want to struggle that much to have Humanity that high would be PCs.
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Sep 27, 2020 21:38
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Dawgstar posted:There was definitely some pushback as the line went on where in early editions you'd see a bunch of vampires, even really old ones, have Humanity 10. Menele/Meneleus has it in Chicago if I remember right. (Chicago's Monitor Rebekah does too, but she starts dropping when she finds out how much fun she can have going back to her old ways.) I think the direction that the only vampires who could possibly want to struggle that much to have Humanity that high would be PCs. Humanity 10 seems to be "you have an attack of scruples when you find out your iPhone has conflict minerals in it," I imagine humanity 8 is your practical long term maximum.
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Sep 27, 2020 21:51
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Nessus posted:Wasn't there that bloodline of Osiris vampires who were reasonably nice people? But I think they were drawing from the well of, "Well, I guess we're vampires now, but we didn't really plan to be." Yeah, they were very much 'our vampires are nicer' and pretty much wholly a 1E thing. I think the Mummy line turned them all humans after a long stretch of nobody even talking about them other than maybe the Setites thinking they'd wiped them out. Nessus posted:Humanity 10 seems to be "you have an attack of scruples when you find out your iPhone has conflict minerals in it," I imagine humanity 8 is your practical long term maximum. If you do RAW even Humanity 8 is kind of hard since it forbids injury in self-defense, but yeah, 10's sin is listed as 'selfish thoughts.'
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Sep 27, 2020 22:09
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Kavak posted:They hosed up Hunter 2e? It's not a Beast-scale wreck or even as bad as the Contagion Chronicle, but it conveys a different attitude from Hunter 1e as regards setting. Hunter 1e was constantly introducing new ideas in broad strokes and everything felt very versatile and flexible and do-it-yourself. It was thick with ideas but not thick with details. Hunter 2e is thick with details. It calls back to supplemental compacts from 1e just to mention that they have been in recent years absorbed into other compacts and conspiracies. It names a specific NPC who is an influential leader over the organization worldwide in each compact and conspiracy writeup. It talks more about how the compacts and conspiracies relate to one another. It talks more about the compacts and conspiracies, just in general. It makes some weird choices with Integrity. The Code is still there, the ability of hunters to trade immunity to a particular type of breaking point for the acquisition of a new breaking point for failing the Vigil. But even without any Code alterations, Hunter 2e declares that hunters do not use the Integrity system other human beings use, and while it's still called Integrity, it might as well be called something else entirely for how different it is. It resembles Vampire 2e's Humanity or Mage 2e's Wisdom more than anything else, with a predefined list of breaking points at specific levels of Integrity, and deleterious Conditions suffered on a breaking point even when you successfully resist it. Committing murder at Integrity 0 turns you into a slasher and you are declared no longer suitable as a player character. There are a few miscellaneous clumsy or tone-deaf moves. The new compact of indigenous activists contains a subfaction that works with outside populations called Lugh's Fist because it was founded in Ireland and a subfaction of chauvinist militants under the acronym TIPI. VASCU, the FBI's Vanguard Serial Crimes Unit who arrest and prosecute paranormal murderers, is presented as having been privatized of all things, which completely wrecks their archetypal flavor. A section listing sample antagonists from folklore and myth around the world starts with literally, called-by-name Slender Man. While Hunter 1e defined Castigation as treating any extradimensional invader as a targetable "demon," Hunter 2e defines "demons" as all horrors with the Infernal Dread Power, whose primary effects are "you are immune to fire and can bring an area up into flames." There are a few saving graces. One useful chapter is just composed of a long exploration of supernatural objects and locations, including "nests" that particular monsters treat as home bases or needed places of power, and how to "fumigate" them. The sample antagonist list is mostly interesting and varied. It's not enough to make up for the rest of the book, in my opinion.
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Sep 27, 2020 22:57
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Dawgstar posted:Yeah, they were very much 'our vampires are nicer' and pretty much wholly a 1E thing. I think the Mummy line turned them all humans after a long stretch of nobody even talking about them other than maybe the Setites thinking they'd wiped them out. Osiris got a massive power-up in the transition to Mummy: The Actual Bookening, and his reward for the Children that kept the faith was to make them human, like how his reward for his mummy servants was to get upgraded to the new hotness. Basically the game has had alternating periods on how hard it goes on Golconda and associated redemptive concepts, and the Children were phased out as that poo poo got murkier. Their basic place is fine, like the entire point of the Salubri is that Saulot went east and learned some magic and philosophical techniques from Asian undead. Chi'iu Muh is just Obeah. Golconda as he envisioned it is just the Wan Kuei Dharmas. The thing is that the Wan Kuei are just jumped up Risen, whereas the Kindred are quite literally cursed by God. So he could somewhat adapt the magic, but the Dharmas weren't a 1 to 1 fit. Mostly because vast swaths of them involve continuing to be an inhuman monster, and the entirety of Kindred existence is God screaming at the top of his lungs STOP KILLING EACH OTHER ASSHOLES. So all the redemptive poo poo has a place in a setting where no, really, God is real and you are the subject of a quite literal Biblical curse. What do you do with that knowledge? Some get introspective and decide to be better people, and some decide to storm the throne of heaven and eat God. It doesn't really tend to end well for either group, so make your play I guess.
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Sep 27, 2020 23:41
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Never forget folks that Golconda is actually a plot by an Earthbound to enslave vampire servants and every time you see a Golcondic vampire with inexplicable gifts they are in fact a servant of that Earthbound.
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Sep 28, 2020 08:59
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Mulva posted:Basically the game has had alternating periods on how hard it goes on Golconda and associated redemptive concepts, and the Children were phased out as that poo poo got murkier. Their basic place is fine, like the entire point of the Salubri is that Saulot went east and learned some magic and philosophical techniques from Asian undead. Chi'iu Muh is just Obeah. Golconda as he envisioned it is just the Wan Kuei Dharmas. The thing is that the Wan Kuei are just jumped up Risen, whereas the Kindred are quite literally cursed by God. So he could somewhat adapt the magic, but the Dharmas weren't a 1 to 1 fit. Mostly because vast swaths of them involve continuing to be an inhuman monster, and the entirety of Kindred existence is God screaming at the top of his lungs STOP KILLING EACH OTHER ASSHOLES. So all the redemptive poo poo has a place in a setting where no, really, God is real and you are the subject of a quite literal Biblical curse. What do you do with that knowledge? This does remind me one of the more reductive insults Kue-Jin liked to throw at Kindred was 'oh you're a descendant of a homicidal farmer?' using that Willy Wonka .jpeg that the obvious retort is 'so? So you're a zombie in a kimono.'
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Sep 28, 2020 13:08
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Chernobyl Peace Prize posted:Also it's not "WoD" per se but it's WW/OP, but Scion 2e rules insanely hard, just nothing but absolute S-tier content for every book so far. Yeah, I'd call it the best product I've read from OPP. My one complaint is it is not tactically balanced (but it is not really intended to be) and that it still suffers from the WW/OPP issue of prose obfuscating mechanics in the power descriptions.
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Sep 29, 2020 04:02
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i've been reading Jenna Moran's Glitch and thinking a lot about a kind of property or method of RPG rules that is closely related to crunch but not identical, sort of the extent to which rules are "soft" -- open to interpretation, guided by things like convenience, narrative, or mood -- vs. "hard", with closed systems that run on clearly defined resources, positions, and game state a game that goes 100% "hard" is no longer an RPG and a game that goes 100% "soft" is no longer really a game; moreover, it's not just a single overall measure from 0% to 100% but more like a nested hierarchy of hard subsystems, one or more soft base layers that underlie and occasionally interrupt those subsystems, and how the two relate to each other JM's games are noteworthy because there are incredibly meticulous about detailing how the soft and hard elements relate to each other; by comparison one of the persistent failings of traditional RPGs is that they either treat this distinction as if it doesn't exist or at least fail to handle the two elements separately when discussing powers or actions that have rules in both contexts "prose obfuscating mechanics in power descriptions" seems to me to usually be the consequence of the game saying "when narrative situation A arises and the player wants to take action B, refer to hard mechanics C to determine the outcome, and then use lens D to interpret what that means when you return to the narrative"; that's a lot more moving pieces than games often depict it as, which is usually more like "if in situation A player wants to do B, here's how" it's particularly frustrating in the context of the Chronicles of Darkness because I think there's an underserved niche of games that have robust "hard" systems but are still oriented more towards narrative than mechanical challenge; something would be lost if you tried to cram them into either of the major paradigms in modern RPG design, but i can't think of any games like this that really master this problem on their own terms, either
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Sep 29, 2020 07:38
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From the way people talk about Scion 2e, I'm convinced I live in a separate reality. There's just something about this book that doesn't make sense in my head. When we get to Combat, I have no idea what to do with Fields. I cannot for the life of me understand what Hero is trying to say regarding Feats of Scale (except in combat, which has a specific section in Origin). The Piercing weapon tag, "Reduces a target's Hard Armor value by 1 or Soft Armor value by 2." Hard Armor has a value of either 1 (for one additional health box) or 3 (for two), so does that...get rid of a health box? Soft Armor increases the difficulty of the 'Inflict Damage' stunt by one, but as far as I know tags can't stack, which means the Soft Armor value will only ever be 1. What does Piercing do in that case? Then the powers have these little things that are always tripping up my players and I. It's just all very confusing for a game I very much want to enjoy.
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Sep 29, 2020 22:16
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Spector29 posted:From the way people talk about Scion 2e, I'm convinced I live in a separate reality. There's just something about this book that doesn't make sense in my head. When we get to Combat, I have no idea what to do with Fields. I cannot for the life of me understand what Hero is trying to say regarding Feats of Scale (except in combat, which has a specific section in Origin). The Piercing weapon tag, "Reduces a target's Hard Armor value by 1 or Soft Armor value by 2." Hard Armor has a value of either 1 (for one additional health box) or 3 (for two), so does that...get rid of a health box? Soft Armor increases the difficulty of the 'Inflict Damage' stunt by one, but as far as I know tags can't stack, which means the Soft Armor value will only ever be 1. What does Piercing do in that case? I find the book to be pretty poorly organized, and since it went through a lot of rounds of revision, has some artifact terminology still floating around, to muddy the waters. But to answer your questions: Fields don't usually do anything unless there's stuff going on in the area, and on those cases are usually sources of Conditions or Complications. Like its raining, which applies a 1 point Complication on all physical actions in the Field which, if you don't buy it off, you slip and fall prone. Feats of Scale are explained in general on of 187 of Hero. That is, if you take an action in line with one of your Legendary Titles (of which you have one per Legend dot), you can spend 1 Legend to gain half your Legend rating, rounded up, in Scale on that action. So if you've got a Title of the Ultimate Liar and you're Legend 3, you could use a Feat of Scale to grant yourself Scale +2 on an attempt to lie your way out of something. Piercing is a bit weird, especially since antagonists tend not to differentiate normal health from hard armor, or soft armor from Defense. What I go with is that it bypasses the hard armor health box, leaving it there and jumping over it, either to the second hard armor box or directly to an injury. Not terribly useful if you've got friends without Piercing, since they'll stuff have to deal with it. But as for soft armor, only mundane armor doesn't go past 1. There are many ways to get a lot more, like the Skin like Stone Boon that gets you 3 points of it, or Adamant Body that gets you +1 soft armor, or the Tempered Warrior Knack. And antagonist qualities and flairs can give them more soft armor too.
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Sep 29, 2020 23:19
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