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Given the Quest is essentially a decently spec'd android phone with a headstrap (even more so with the Quest 2 moving to one screen) it's remarkable to me that after initially launching daydream Google never really iterated or built a standalone device to try and compete. Like Google are evil too, but if it's a choice between having to use a Google account and a Facebook account i'd much rather Google.
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Sep 26, 2020 20:01
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iron buns posted:Here's my hot take: Facebook will own the VR market in the next 12-18 months. FB will own the market for now, by virtue of being the only ones in the real market (of course the pc market will be dwarfed by a standalone solution, most people don't own a gaming pc). There will be a chance of them stopping to own it when someone powerful enough (Apple, Google, Samsung, Sony, MS) enters into the Arena making a Quest competitor, and it's good enough of course. The PC VR market will be another thing, my guess is 40% Oculus and 60% others.
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Sep 26, 2020 20:06
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Unlike PC vs consoles/mobile, the PCVR market is not large enough to sustain the development of big titles by itself. It is enough to sustain the indies (just barely), but those big titles are the system sellers. Also, there was a time when most new PC games were console ports. I mean, we're still kinda there. It's not quite as bad as it used to be, but many games are still designed around the console limitations. If PCVR is going to survive, we need an affordable alternative to Quest 2. I don't see anyone making one.
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Sep 26, 2020 20:11
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Valve revives Steam Machines for the Index 2
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Sep 26, 2020 20:12
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The Quest 2 is also a PCVR headset, which makes it different enough from the more separate mobile/console pardadigm that I don't think the same rules apply. My dream VR headset is something running x64 hardware, maybe some kind of low power Zen+RDNA2 SoC. May not be able to run everything on high detail, but it would have the advantage of being able to do stuff like run desktop apps and other productivity software without having to stream it from a host as well as having a massive library of legacy titles available. SCheeseman fucked around with this message at 20:40 on Sep 26, 2020 |
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Sep 26, 2020 20:16
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We need to get Apple’s ARM chips in a headset already.
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Sep 26, 2020 20:39
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only apple can fight facebook when it comes to locking people in a walled garden
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Sep 26, 2020 20:44
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Turin Turambar posted:It would be interesting if 'armswinger' would start being implemented into more games. It's slightly more immersive? Nah gently caress armswinger, armswinger is basically waggle as far as I'm concerned. I mean rip out the legs and walk on your arms: https://i.imgur.com/KymuDga.mp4
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Sep 26, 2020 20:53
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Lemming posted:Nah gently caress armswinger, armswinger is basically waggle as far as I'm concerned. I mean rip out the legs and walk on your arms: That was the prototype you were doing right? In truth the 'grab with hand and pull to move' is indeed the best method I tried (Lone Echo).
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Sep 26, 2020 21:00
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Lemming posted:Nah gently caress armswinger, armswinger is basically waggle as far as I'm concerned. I mean rip out the legs and walk on your arms: We really need to talk if you're going to keep working on this game. Lots of reasons. Gentleman Baller posted:My only real problem with this thread is that you guys got me onto the modified H3 armswinger control scheme. Now when first person games dedicate an entire analogue stick just for less fun/good movement I get sad. Stand Out did a good job of armswing. Miss it tons and really wish everyone would just steal it and use theres. Lemming posted:With the way the current tech is, I don't think there's a good solution for using your legs to walk. But who needs legs when you have hands? Echo proved to me that moving with your arms can feel great and fun moment to moment, instead of just serviceable like stick locomotion. To be honest, I think more games should just straight up have you walk on your hands. Just rip out the legs in game. Walking around is fine with current tech. Room scale location based experiences rule. It just sucks at home when you have no space to walk around. Armswing rocks for that though.
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Sep 26, 2020 21:03
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Turin Turambar posted:That was the prototype you were doing right? In truth the 'grab with hand and pull to move' is indeed the best method I tried (Lone Echo). I completely agree with this. I actually first got used to it in Google Earth and it feels so natural.
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Sep 26, 2020 21:04
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Lemming posted:Nah gently caress armswinger, armswinger is basically waggle as far as I'm concerned. I mean rip out the legs and walk on your arms: 1. Awesome demo if you made that 2. Something has just occurred to me: We.... we don't actually need a full treadmill. Arm swinging to move works because your arms are floating in the air, and moving them does not move you IRL. Moving by walking around a room is ideal because then you still feel the full motion forces, but if you were walking on a treadmill you would not be moving around anyways, you'd be fixed in position as the treadmill would make up for moving your legs. But that'd be fine? Not actually moving isn't the biggest problem. So going even further, we don't really need a treadmill. Gentlemen, I present to you the future of VR control:  I tried to find a picture of one of those child bouncy seats but couldn't find a good one It'd be cheap as hell! Just run a cable across your room, and suspend yourself from it.  But seriously, with a proper suspension setup you could feasibly move your legs just as easily as your arms while in VR. It'd just require installing a BDSM sex dungeon in one of your rooms. (provided you don't already have one)
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Sep 26, 2020 21:12
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Get me IP68 goggles and all we need is a salt bath for actual sensory deprivation and freedom of movement.
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Sep 26, 2020 21:20
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ephori posted:Get me IP68 goggles and all we need is a salt Yeah but then your HMD needs to be waterproof  E: SCheeseman posted:That's what IP68 means!  Zaphod42 fucked around with this message at 21:31 on Sep 26, 2020 |
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Sep 26, 2020 21:25
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That's what IP68 means! HMDs could stand to be waterproof even today, with the number of that that have died as a result of being exposed to Gamer Sweat.
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Sep 26, 2020 21:28
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SCheeseman posted:The Quest 2 is also a PCVR headset, which makes it different enough from the more separate mobile/console pardadigm that I don't think the same rules apply. I'd say it's comparable to Steam vs other storefronts today. Installing yet another launcher isn't that hard, but it's an extra step, and that alone seems to be too much for many people. My guess is that most Quest 2 owners will use Link to play PC games that happen to have a VR mode, like NMS, MS Flight Sim or SW: Squadrons, and the occasional PCVR exclusive like HL: Alyx. In a sense, PCVR headsets would become accessories similar to flights sticks, not a platform by themselves.
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Sep 26, 2020 21:32
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That's how it was from the start on PC anyway. It's also how PC works as a platform; almost everything you get for a PC is an accessory, it's modular nature is by design and kind of the point.
SCheeseman fucked around with this message at 21:40 on Sep 26, 2020 |
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Sep 26, 2020 21:38
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Gentleman Baller posted:My only real problem with this thread is that you guys got me onto the modified H3 armswinger control scheme. Now when first person games dedicate an entire analogue stick just for less fun/good movement I get sad. This is the VR gamers catch 22: do you play the bad game with good movement or the good game with bad movement?
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Sep 26, 2020 22:02
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Turin Turambar posted:That was the prototype you were doing right? In truth the 'grab with hand and pull to move' is indeed the best method I tried (Lone Echo). Yep! It's pretty crazy to me how we haven't seen more people mess around with that kind of loco, after playing it I assumed a bunch of copycats would appear but it's been pretty sparse EbolaIvory posted:We really need to talk if you're going to keep working on this game. Lots of reasons. If you want I can send you the discord I made, to be honest I don't think it's going anywhere long term because I'm a complete novice to game dev and I don't think I'll be capable of adding any kind of polish to it, I've been working on it fairly consistently for months now and I think it's a lot better but it still looks like complete garbage. It has been fun working on it tho EbolaIvory posted:Walking around is fine with current tech. Room scale location based experiences rule. Yeah exactly. Being able to actually walk is best case scenario, since you get that entire input space, so if you don't have access to that, you need an alternative that allows for a similar level of input fidelity.
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Sep 26, 2020 22:19
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Lemming posted:Yep! It's pretty crazy to me how we haven't seen more people mess around with that kind of loco, after playing it I assumed a bunch of copycats would appear but it's been pretty sparse Yeah we're probably in some mutual discord somewhere, just dm me or ill find you or something. No rush just, idk, I have ideas, things happening, ndas, bla bla bla.
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Sep 26, 2020 23:44
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Walking in VR strikes me as problem that definitely has a solution, but I don't think we will see any good or affordable options until VR becomes a lot of bigger than it is now. Imo if VR hit the mainstream enough, I think it's something companies might start bothering to spend R&D on. My personal stupid idea is to make some sort of treadmill out of a bunch of rolling balls that can have resistance applied to them via a motor. Someones probably already tried that and I just don't know it though, and it probably sucks.
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Sep 26, 2020 23:54
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There’s a group that made a treadmill of treadmills. Used some extra trackers to do the statics and keep you centered and upright, like balancing a yardstick on your hand. It was pretty cool and gave you a pretty sizable pad to walk on in any direction, with totally unhindered movement within. Like, that’s the dream. It was also large and loud as hell, if I recall.
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Sep 26, 2020 23:56
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There was a thing a long time ago where they put you inside of a giant metal hamster ball and you could freely walk in any direction. But solutions like that are going to be very expensive. We'll solve the problem, but yeah, it requires it to become more mainstream for economies of scale to kick in and make affordable. Like I said, the endgame is a full on matrix brain port, which is inevitable but also a long ways' off.
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Sep 27, 2020 00:12
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Zaphod42 posted:Like I said, the endgame is a full on matrix brain port, which is inevitable but also a long ways' off. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKe53bcyBQY
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Sep 27, 2020 00:38
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On the list of “people I would never accept a brain chip from”, Elon Musk is definitely in the top three.
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Sep 27, 2020 00:49
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Hi VR thread! I've been working on getting my system set up so it can run this HTC Vive I bought on Craigslist. Setup was as huge ordeal mostly because while I had everything apart I felt a need to deep clean everything, and my cats kept trying to jump inside my case while the door was open. The actual setup portion of the Vive was also a major pain but I made it through. I can see why the Oculus headsets that don't require a real good computer to run are going to end up being a huge market; I know how to work and build computers and even I thought that setup was a pain. I'm not sure how non-tech savvy people would manage that at all. I've spent about 5 minutes in VR until I heard a huge crash as my cat knocked all the poo poo I took off my desk onto the floor, so back to doing chores before I get to enjoy this. 
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Sep 27, 2020 01:41
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Honestly I think we probably already have the only solutions to 'walking around' in vr for home use that we're ever going to have: use a thumbstick, or some people maybe like swinging arms instead. done. I think every single rig or engineering solution for some kind of walking in place thing will never amount to anything for home use. They're all gigantic boondoggles of complex and expensive engineering that takes up a lot of space, and unlike refining some software, theres always going to be a hard limit on the forces and energy needed to control human movement safely through mechanical means. Theres only so cheap you can make that level of strength. Every single time I see some new device to "solve" this issue its laughable. They're either gigantic, hugely expensive, rinky dink weird, or most of the time all 3 in one. This is not to say I can't see a future where arcade locations (and the rare super rich gently caress) have working omidirectional treadmills that can track and anticipate movement enough to work safely, but for average home use? Absolutely not. The one possible thing I could see happening though i'll admit, is full body tracking becoming standard and using some kind of 'marching in place' motion to control movement. Getting body tracking down from a single camera fast is getting pretty good, and I could see a scenario of having a camera sitting on your desk for body tracking being standard.  I'm not bullish on this either though because I can't see any way you'd get it to work for stand alone devices (possibly a wireless battery powered camera with build in stand you can set down and links wireless to the headset?), and if its already fractured like that, well... yeah maybe it would be a standard option on PC, but games will still be built around just using a thumbstick. I think its also the case you'd find a lot (maybe it ends up a majority?) of people don't want to sit there picking up their feet marching in place when they can just move their thumb. People really like defaulting to the laziest solution when presented with different options most of the time. If you're looking at the metrics, and 95% of your audience only ever use a thumbstick and not whatever marching or gizmo method, your not really going to focus on those people. We already see those movement devices always have about 0 support. Heck, most games today feature no colourblind support or other basic accessibility features as it is for a much wider audience. There will always be unique scenarios like the lone echo games that work beautifully (and frankly i wish more games would flat out rip off those controls shamelessly. When mario cracked the code for platformers or 3d platformers, they were shameless ripped off and rightfully so. what works, works. ), but I think for the most part we've already seen our future of walking in VR, and its probably the one we'll see for most of our lives unless brain interfaces can ever even be done.
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Sep 27, 2020 01:43
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The only way to get a true walking experience in VR is a Quest and a gigantic open field
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Sep 27, 2020 01:56
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Or a moderately big open field with redirected walking.
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Sep 27, 2020 01:58
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Tom Guycot posted:
It's actually better on standalone devices because they have several cameras with your body in view from different angles. Also, with VR devices you already have the exact positions and rotations of the hands and head, and you know where the floor is, which really simplifies things. Compare that to hand tracking on Quest, where they're tracking 54 joints with none of their positions or rotations known. Oculus has already been working on it, and in Carmack's talk he discussed how once they're tracking the entire body you'll never lose controller tracking because they'll be able to infer the controller's position based on your limb positions.
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Sep 27, 2020 02:18
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Lacrosse posted:Hi VR thread! I've been working on getting my system set up so it can run this HTC Vive I bought on Craigslist. Setup was as huge ordeal mostly because while I had everything apart I felt a need to deep clean everything, and my cats kept trying to jump inside my case while the door was open. The actual setup portion of the Vive was also a major pain but I made it through. I can see why the Oculus headsets that don't require a real good computer to run are going to end up being a huge market; I know how to work and build computers and even I thought that setup was a pain. I'm not sure how non-tech savvy people would manage that at all. Welcome! We advise moving anything fragile/valuable into a different room until you get a handle on things.
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Sep 27, 2020 03:11
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Zaphod42 posted:
The is middle point between Ghost In the Shell and our current technologies. Stimulation of the inner ear with some external device (headphones-like?). If they could make you feel like moving when you hold a thumbstick, it would improve the experience clearly. https://www.hackster.io/news/mit-s-moveu-makes-you-feel-virtual-reality-movement-by-stimulating-your-inner-ear-d6e45f58e969 Turin Turambar fucked around with this message at 08:46 on Sep 27, 2020 |
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Sep 27, 2020 08:44
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WirelessPillow posted:I feel like you could just buy a powerful laptop with a good battery and strap it in a baby carrier for cheaper. If PCVR does continue to be a thing and doesnt just stall at the G2 and Index, laptops for VR are going to be the next stumbling block. The gulf between desktop GPU performance and laptop GPU performance was bad enough with the RTX2xxx series and only looks to be even worse with the 3000 series. Gaming Laptops are typically running around 200-250w total system power, and thats with many struggling with thermal management as it is. When a desktop 3080 consumes about 330w on its own, there just no way the laptop versions arent going to be massively nerfed. I think those purpose-designed backpacks like that HP are probably a good solution if they free up portable form factors from the limitations of laptop design
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Sep 27, 2020 09:19
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ROFLBOT posted:If PCVR does continue to be a thing and doesnt just stall at the G2 and Index, laptops for VR are going to be the next stumbling block. The gulf between desktop GPU performance and laptop GPU performance was bad enough with the RTX2xxx series and only looks to be even worse with the 3000 series. PCVR is very much a thing, I think the problem is we're kinda in a lull between development cycles right this instant. Samsung's thing is probably still cooking (and almost certainly delayed by COVID as everything else has been), Sony's thing is at least a year out even if it's just PSVR2, and the Reverb G2 suggests there might be a new WMR HDK floating around but who knows when it went out and how long whoever might have it has had time to play with it.
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Sep 27, 2020 10:06
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ROFLBOT posted:If PCVR does continue to be a thing and doesnt just stall at the G2 and Index, laptops for VR are going to be the next stumbling block. The gulf between desktop GPU performance and laptop GPU performance was bad enough with the RTX2xxx series and only looks to be even worse with the 3000 series. 99% of PCVR stuff runs on a gtx 1060 equivalent tho?? you definitely don't need a 300w card, i'm still on an olde 980ti and the only things i play that don't run well are things where vr was tacked on after the fact
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Sep 27, 2020 10:23
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Neddy Seagoon posted:PCVR is very much a thing, I think the problem is we're kinda in a lull between development cycles right this instant. Samsung's thing is probably still cooking (and almost certainly delayed by COVID as everything else has been), Sony's thing is at least a year out even if it's just PSVR2, and the Reverb G2 suggests there might be a new WMR HDK floating around but who knows when it went out and how long whoever might have it has had time to play with it. I think so too, that comment was more in the context of the discussion above about the scenario of FB controlling the VR market. I havent had a desktop PC for years and with the Rift S proving inside-out tracking VR can be pretty drat decent i see no reason to change that, save for laptop performance hitting a power and thermal management brick wall. Truga posted:99% of PCVR stuff runs on a gtx 1060 equivalent tho?? you definitely don't need a 300w card, i'm still on an olde 980ti and the only things i play that don't run well are things where vr was tacked on after the fact You might be able to get away with a 1060 with the first gen headsets or the Rift S but trying to push 2160 x 2160 per eye on a G2 is going to take considerably more GPU grunt. ROFLBOT fucked around with this message at 11:18 on Sep 27, 2020 |
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Sep 27, 2020 11:10
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Sooner or later there will be a bump in pc vr requirements, graphics will improve, and then as Roflbot says, the modern headset resolutions are higher than the og Rift/Vive.
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Sep 27, 2020 11:14
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Arm locomotion chat just makes me think Spider-Man be would kick rear end. Also a Donkey Kong: King of Swing sequel. God I can’t wait for nintendo to make real vr games.
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Sep 27, 2020 11:17
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Turin Turambar posted:Sooner or later there will be a bump in pc vr requirements, graphics will improve, and then as Roflbot says, the modern headset resolutions are higher than the og Rift/Vive. I think hardware-wise PCVR will reach maturity once the 2/30X0 nVidia cards are the average rather than the hot new high-end model. There's been a lot of competing overlap between new VR headset resolutions and graphics cards playing catch-up with eachother since the Rift first appeared, and it's only now the graphics cards are getting ahead of the requirements for VR hardware.
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Sep 27, 2020 11:45
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I ran my rift CV1 perfectly fine on a gtx 970, if you want to turn up all the dials and play DCS you might need a powerhouse card but entry level cards work fine for 90% of games. I think the only game that actually stuttered back in the day was Onward. If I had to ballpark it, I'd guess you need a card that's 1/4-1/3rd the cost of the headset you want to buy.
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