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Also he was a pretty bad DM
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Sep 28, 2020 04:48
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rodbeard posted:It's weird seeing people give Gygax the benefit of the doubt in this day and age. He's specifically quoting a man whose act of genocide was so barbaric even other outspoken racists of his time criticized him for it and saying that the sentiment is correct. You don't spend your whole life studying history and warfare and then accidentally quote an outspoken white supremacist defending himself after killing an entire village of natives and then carving up their bodies as trophies. Fair point.
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Sep 28, 2020 04:54
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Oh yeah he was very likely racist against Indigenous people and a bit too fond of colonist war criminals; I was more interested in who else's hands were on the wheel when that particular decision was made, since TSR did not spring forth fully-formed from his bearded gob in a single movement. Also, "phylactery" appears to be an exonym with no real purpose, since "tefillin" is unambiguous to Jews and Gentiles alike, and is perfectly pronounceable in an otherwise-English sentence even if its declension doesn't follow English rules. I declare it to be a silly word. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7HaQGnJnsE
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Sep 28, 2020 05:36
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I can only speak from an Orthodox perspective, but we never used the word "synagogue" either.
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Sep 28, 2020 07:08
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mostlygray posted:I never understand how to define cultural appropriation. My father's first language was Croatian. His side of the family is ethnic German. My other side is Norwegian and a mix of Polish and Yankee British. There's some Dutch in there too. I like to sing in Rom. Specifically Hungarian style which is also in my family. I grew up around Finns, Ojibwe, and Slovak ethnic groups. That's because the entire idea of cultural appropriation being problematic is bullshit that promotes an essentialist view of 'race' and ethnicity. The way some people throw it around is itself unironically problematic. Yes, I have seen examples of 'cultural appropriation' that are actually hosed, but they're not appropriation. They're actually the opposite of that. If you dress up as a hurtful stereotype of a specific group of people for a costume party, you're doing it for laughs, implicitly mocking them. The entire point is how much it deviates from what you consider to be normal, and it only lasts for a day. You haven't appropriated anything, you haven't made it your own, you've in fact just reaffirmed their Otherness. On the other hand, if you incorporate something into your daily life, because it's useful, because it appeals to your sensibilities in some way, or yes, even if you just think it looks cool, that is cultural appropriation, and it's what human beings have been doing since the dawn of time. Cultural and technological innovations have always spread in this way. Just imagine how bleak our societies would be if we started putting up hermetically sealed cultural barriers based on what our current group identities happen to be, and how the legacy of so many colonized cultures would be destroyed because they have no 'pure' representatives left who are 'allowed' to engage with those cultural practices. The people who push this idea that normal human behavior is cultural appropriation generally receive only tepid criticism because they use the language of social justice. I don't agree with that. You have to push back against this whenever you see it, as racial/ethnic essentialism is legitimately a dangerous idea, whether it's white supremacists or tumblrites promoting it. Atticus_1354 posted:Are you profiting of another's culture while not including the members of that culture? Youre probably fine singing songs because you like them. To be clear, I do agree with this, I would include cynical marketing ploys in my first paragraph (although not as bad as my example). However, if you wag your finger at me for wearing dreads and moccasins, I will kindly tell you to gently caress off (I would accept being mocked for looking like a dumbass stoner). Just imagine how quickly we would end up with a Western monoculture across the globe if people actually took that seriously. Phlegmish has a new favorite as of 14:26 on Sep 28, 2020 |
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Sep 28, 2020 14:20
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The social justice worries/reactions are stemming from a worry that we are taking the culture that is convenient for us and ignoring or regressing in treatment of the peoples from who the concept is coming. It's convenient to wear their shoes and style our hair like them while also being convenient to continue marginalizing them. Cultural advancement through exchange of ideas verse cultural advancement through conquest or subjugation. It's hard to tell because it's intent based and then further gets muddied because it starts melting into the intent of our society and not just ourself so even if in your heart of hearts you're wearing shoes as equals you can still be jeered because your peers are not.
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Sep 28, 2020 15:24
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"All members of this race have X trait" is honestly a thing in D&D that is kind of gross when you look at it too closely, and it makes for less interesting storytelling. I like my own regular group where the party befriended a gnoll barbarian npc we found trying to sell rusted weapons in a swamp, the DM casually pointed out after the fact that all gnolls are evil according to official lore, and we had a brief discussion about this and decided this was idiotic and we were all going to ignore this. We dragged that gnoll halfway around the world because he agreed to come with us after we engaged his services as a guide through the swamp, and finally helped him achieve his dream of being a real merchant when we arranged a interview with an open-minded shopkeeper looking for an assistant. He is very happy now. Or we could've just killed him because all gnolls are evil. 
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Sep 28, 2020 15:59
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RoboRodent posted:"All members of this race have X trait" is honestly a thing in D&D that is kind of gross when you look at it too closely, and it makes for less interesting storytelling. Assumed you were talking about the forum up to this point and was nodding in agreement
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Sep 28, 2020 16:21
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RoboRodent posted:"All members of this race have X trait" is honestly a thing in D&D that is kind of gross when you look at it too closely, and it makes for less interesting storytelling. This very thing was why I stopped reading the Redwall books. "All mice, squirrels, otters, badgers rabbits are always good and never the bad guys." "All rats, stoats, foxes, weasels, ferrets" are always 100% evil and have no redeeming qualities." It got real old after awhile.
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Sep 28, 2020 16:50
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zedprime posted:The social justice worries/reactions are stemming from a worry that we are taking the culture that is convenient for us and ignoring or regressing in treatment of the peoples from who the concept is coming. It's convenient to wear their shoes and style our hair like them while also being convenient to continue marginalizing them. Cultural advancement through exchange of ideas verse cultural advancement through conquest or subjugation. Hmm. I can see that argument. This is not really the thread to have a discussion like this, but my take it on is that 'cultural appropriation' tends to get used as an umbrella term on the Internet for two (probably more) very different types of behavior (though always relating to objects/aesthetics since the people who love to use the term generally have a shallow, childlike understanding of human culture as a concept), and the key is to distinguish between the two. Say I want to be a Rastafarian for Halloween, I dress up in blackface and fake dreads, I go around talking in a 'funny' Jamaican accent, etc. Obviously that is hosed even without the historical context of the Transatlantic slave trade, which makes it worse still. But here's the thing, that's not really appropriation as such. I'm not making those customs my own. My whole performance, and that's what it is, fundamentally depends on how those things deviate from what is considered the default in my society. I'm emphasizing how different they are. The following day I'll get rid of those props. That is, yes, problematic, and it's good to call it out. Now say you have a Moldovan teenager who is really into reggae as a subculture, you know, listens to Toots and the Maytals or whatever, really likes the vibes and message. He genuinely admires it and wants to express that in some way, even if maybe he lacks the cultural context to fully understand it. He goes around wearing dreads in his daily life, despite many people (older ones especially) in his conservative country giving him poo poo for it. He feels that it's part of his identity. You have people basically saying he's not genetically allowed to do that, because he's considered part of 'the white race' in 2020, and that means there's a beep boop mismatch, we need to cancel him immediately. I can't accept that, even though I still might make fun of him for looking silly and talking about Jah in a Moldovan/Romanian accent. That's the music and the subculture that speak to him, that make him move, that stir him deep inside. As a human being, he fundamentally has the right to embrace that and make it part of his personal identity, he doesn't have to take a DNA test or get written permission from Andrew Holness. You go, hypothetical Moldovan kid, and if anyone tries to stop you, just take a drag and blow smoke into their stupid faces.
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Sep 28, 2020 16:52
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That question comes up a lot in discussions of who is "Indigenous" in the context of the First Nations in what is now Canada. One popular way of looking at it is to say it's not enough for you to claim a nation, but that the nation must also claim you. Implicit in that perspective is that it's not for someone who isn't in the nation to make the call one way or the other, so anyone lacking that cred is cordially invited to go mind his own business.Phlegmish posted:Hmm. I can see that argument. This is not really the thread to have a discussion like this, but my take it on is that 'cultural appropriation' tends to get used as an umbrella term on the Internet for two (probably more) very different types of behavior (though always relating to objects/aesthetics since the people who love to use the term generally have a shallow, childlike understanding of human culture as a concept), and the key is to distinguish between the two. Maybe this is semantic drift, but I always figured that first definition was just plain wrong.
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Sep 28, 2020 17:04
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Silver Falcon posted:This very thing was why I stopped reading the Redwall books. "All mice, squirrels, otters, badgers rabbits are always good and never the bad guys." "All rats, stoats, foxes, weasels, ferrets" are always 100% evil and have no redeeming qualities." Yeah, same. It makes for predictable fiction, and in Redwall who's evil and who's good gets real arbitrary.
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Sep 28, 2020 17:16
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flakeloaf posted:That question comes up a lot in discussions of who is "Indigenous" in the context of the First Nations in what is now Canada. One popular way of looking at it is to say it's not enough for you to claim a nation, but that the nation must also claim you. Implicit in that perspective is that it's not for someone who isn't in the nation to make the call one way or the other, so anyone lacking that cred is cordially invited to go mind his own business. Perhaps that's a third interpretation beyond simply adopting things you like, actually claiming to be something you're not. I do agree that that's not acceptable, despite your intentions and the way you bring it into practice. Obviously if the Moldovan guy went on to claim that he is Jamaican, people should call him out for that. This behavior seems to be becoming more common in North America, I assume due to the legacy of the one drop rule + the Culture War going full swing, so you have left-leaning people going around claiming to be this or that, due to a desire to be 'exotic' and get some free oppression points (which they don't have to deal with in daily life, unlike actual members of minority groups).
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Sep 28, 2020 17:17
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Invoking the First Nations is something I probably shouldn't have done without a preamble, because the spectre of genocidal colonialism (which i guess is just called colonialism) colours today's interactions between "them" and "us". There's probably no good way for the genocider to emulate their victims, even if there's an admirable trait or practise that really speaks to you and inspires you to emulate them. It's a special case with a whole bunch of special cases inside, and is distinct from, let's say, a guy deciding to parade around in a hanbok and insist people call him Brayden-nim because he heard a bangin k-pop album and once had a whole mouthful of kimchi without coughing. And if that leads to the question about whether the descendents of colonizers "may" emulate other cultures who've been the victim of their imperialism in the past, the safest place to wait until someone from that group's had a say is "well not really, nah".
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Sep 28, 2020 17:51
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flakeloaf posted:There's probably no good way for the genocider to emulate their victims, even if there's an admirable trait or practise that really speaks to you and inspires you to emulate them. And this is why people are quick to paint cultural appropriation with a wide brush, because there's almost no culture that white people haven't genocided at some point.
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Sep 28, 2020 17:56
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Yeah, this is why I keep waving off people who tell me I should sell my homemade kimchi at the farmer's market! No, I'm so white I burn through SPF 50, I'm not going to present myself as a kimchi expert in public. That's embarrassing to even think of. That, and selling it seems like a lot of time and effort I don't have. I just like kimchi!
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Sep 28, 2020 18:09
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rodbeard posted:It's weird seeing people give Gygax the benefit of the doubt in this day and age. He's specifically quoting a man whose act of genocide was so barbaric even other outspoken racists of his time criticized him for it and saying that the sentiment is correct. You don't spend your whole life studying history and warfare and then accidentally quote an outspoken white supremacist defending himself after killing an entire village of natives and then carving up their bodies as trophies. Can I get more details on this?
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Sep 28, 2020 18:12
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you should do whatever you want
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Sep 28, 2020 18:12
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RoboRodent posted:Yeah, this is why I keep waving off people who tell me I should sell my homemade kimchi at the farmer's market! No, I'm so white I burn through SPF 50, I'm not going to present myself as a kimchi expert in public. That's embarrassing to even think of. I guess, though if anyone gives you poo poo over that, they're being kind of an rear end in a top hat. Unless it really is just garbage? I'll have to have a taste for myself before I decide whether or not to #cancel you
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Sep 28, 2020 18:13
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RoboRodent posted:Yeah, this is why I keep waving off people who tell me I should sell my homemade kimchi at the farmer's market! No, I'm so white I burn through SPF 50, I'm not going to present myself as a kimchi expert in public. That's embarrassing to even think of. Just brand it as WE COOK Kimchi and you'll be good to go. (The Korean word for 'foreigner' is oe-geuk-ig, and because westerners are bad at pronouncing Korean consonants, our tendency to say "oe-keuk" inspires a running joke at our expense)
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Sep 28, 2020 18:14
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bulletsponge13 posted:Can I get more details on this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sand_Creek_massacre
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Sep 28, 2020 18:17
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Phlegmish posted:I guess, though if anyone gives you poo poo over that, they're being kind of an rear end in a top hat. Unless it really is just garbage? I'll have to have a taste for myself before I decide whether or not to #cancel you I mean, I'd definitely provide samples if required. flakeloaf posted:Just brand it as WE COOK Kimchi and you'll be good to go. Oh, I love a good multilingual pun 
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Sep 28, 2020 18:24
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So here's a thing. I'm low class english - proper scum. And I grew up (from the age of gently caress all at all) listening to Ska and Reggae. My household was literally owned by a Caribbean woman and all I heard was good music. My friends were black guys, from Jamaican backgrounds. I lived in a culture that is not of my own - whatever that means. But it is my background. My culture of experience. It is what I grew up in and adore. When the two-tone poo poo happened I was in heaven. I have never claimed to be black, and am a Honkey (cos it's funny). But it's what I listened to all my life and am baffled that I can't like it, 'cos some gatekeeper fuckwit says I have no claim. Never had ownership, but it is the sound of my history and gently caress all y'all telling me I can't have that. I will skank forever (my wedding dance song was by Laurel Aitken (Rudy got married) and I met him more than once) so excuse me for being me. Am not discounting the black history at all, but human history has more facets.
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Sep 28, 2020 22:07
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if "cultural appropriation" is supposed to mean that you cant enjoy or practice things from another culture then its clearly an idiotic idea that can get hosed but thats also probably just the media/internet caricature of whatever the term was originally intended to mean. then again most ideas that come from the united states are extremely stupid
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Sep 28, 2020 22:16
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:
So you're a... horny lich? So my thing I just figured out is that if you eat chili with sour cream and cheese using tortilla chips, it magically becomes nachos! That never get soggy because you're only introducing the chip at bite time! I don't know why that was such a loving revelation, but I've been eat a lot of chili with chips over the past two weeks. Edit: Yes I know it's stupid, but I seriously considered chili and nachos with chili to be two totally separate food groups.
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Sep 28, 2020 22:50
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vdarknight posted:So here's a thing. I'm low class english - proper scum. And I grew up (from the age of gently caress all at all) listening to Ska and Reggae. My household was literally owned by a Caribbean woman and all I heard was good music. My friends were black guys, from Jamaican backgrounds. I lived in a culture that is not of my own - whatever that means. But it is my background. My culture of experience. It is what I grew up in and adore. When the two-tone poo poo happened I was in heaven. I have never claimed to be black, and am a Honkey (cos it's funny). But it's what I listened to all my life and am baffled that I can't like it, 'cos some gatekeeper fuckwit says I have no claim. Never had ownership, but it is the sound of my history and gently caress all y'all telling me I can't have that. Oh yeah, Laurel Aitken (RIP). I mentioned him some yesterday in the GBS goth thread (of all threads). At the bottom of the post: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3939732&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=9#post508409772 Yeah, that's the sort of 'cultural appropriation' that's not only fine, it's actually good, and just the way human culture works. Anyone giving you poo poo over that can gently caress off. If they had their way, two-tone and practially every other genre of popular music wouldn't even exist.
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Sep 28, 2020 23:01
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vdarknight posted:But it's what I listened to all my life and am baffled that I can't like it, 'cos some gatekeeper fuckwit says I have no claim. Never had ownership, but it is the sound of my history and gently caress all y'all telling me I can't have that. Nobody here is saying that and nobody out there who says it is worth listening to.
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Sep 28, 2020 23:02
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Yup. I think that was more of a mid-2010's thing, when people went a little overboard. Goons are pretty chill now.
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Sep 28, 2020 23:06
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Whenever I think of the appropriation conversation I can’t help but think of that kimono exhibit where a bunch of American with Japanese ancestry took issue with it while conversely a number of people from Japan thought it was fine and while I’m sure that grossly oversimplifies what happened I do think it’s funny and shows we have no idea how to have this conversation yet because I do agree that it is a thing when minority groups have their culture pilfered and sanitized but there’s a line that we haven’t defined very clearly
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Sep 28, 2020 23:10
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christmas boots posted:Whenever I think of the appropriation conversation I can’t help but think of that kimono exhibit where a bunch of American with Japanese ancestry took issue with it while conversely a number of people from Japan thought it was fine and while I’m sure that grossly oversimplifies what happened I do think it’s funny and shows we have no idea how to have this conversation yet because I do agree that it is a thing when minority groups have their culture pilfered and sanitized but there’s a line that we haven’t defined very clearly Remember the time a white girl in Utah wore a Chinese dress to prom and it got to a point the BBC covered it? https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-43947959 Len has a new favorite as of 23:15 on Sep 28, 2020 |
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Sep 28, 2020 23:12
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christmas boots posted:Whenever I think of the appropriation conversation I can’t help but think of that kimono exhibit where a bunch of American with Japanese ancestry took issue with it while conversely a number of people from Japan thought it was fine and while I’m sure that grossly oversimplifies what happened I do think it’s funny and shows we have no idea how to have this conversation yet because I do agree that it is a thing when minority groups have their culture pilfered and sanitized but there’s a line that we haven’t defined very clearly i think it's a lot simpler in that: doing something can be ok in some circumstances if you're in one country but not ok in another country something like that dress example: if you were there and someone from there said "hey put this on" or asked everyone came in traditional dress, or that's just the way it's done and you'd stand out way more not having one? no problem. but just doing that in your own country, no invitation and no prior context, it comes off bad
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Sep 28, 2020 23:42
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Mister Olympus posted:i think it's a lot simpler in that: doing something can be ok in some circumstances if you're in one country but not ok in another country TBH I think it's a bit more complicated when you've have competing statements from country of the culture itself vs immigrants or children of immigrants of that culture living in your own country. To me most of the clear-cut examples of appropriation as described involve First Nations. Look at white people using "native jewelry" as a label to shill tourist-trap garbage and I think that's obvious to everyone what's happening there.
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Sep 29, 2020 00:00
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I figure it's good to share cultural things. Food, dress, music, various other practices. It helps us connect to each other. It helps us see each other as people. Potlucks for world peace etc. But there's a very obvious and distinct difference between being invited to share a thing and taking a thing because you think it's cool and/or declaring yourself an expert in it, and if you're on the outside of that culture, you don't get to decide which one it is.
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Sep 29, 2020 00:01
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christmas boots posted:TBH I think it's a bit more complicated when you've have competing statements from country of the culture itself vs immigrants or children of immigrants of that culture living in your own country. I was just talking about the competing statements in the post you quoted. The people in the country think it's fine because they haven't dealt with being stereotyped, they're reacting to someone not from-there interested in what they consider "default" culture, so it's cool. The people not from the country think it's not fine because they've lived their lives with that culture not being "default," and things like that dress being used to make fun of them, so it's not cool. That seems pretty conclusive to me. If it happened in the country in question, or by invitation of a native, it's cool. If it was the person's own decision with no implication of being invited, it's not cool.
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Sep 29, 2020 00:25
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Mister Olympus posted:I was just talking about the competing statements in the post you quoted. Yeah pretty much. Japanese people aren't a minority in Japan. Chinese people aren't a minority in China.
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Sep 29, 2020 01:57
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Shibawanko posted:if "cultural appropriation" is supposed to mean that you cant enjoy or practice things from another culture then its clearly an idiotic idea that can get hosed but thats also probably just the media/internet caricature of whatever the term was originally intended to mean. then again most ideas that come from the united states are extremely stupid Maybe it was not in this thread but I’m pretty sure this has been asked and answered while you continue to wax angstily about cultural appropriation or whatever, but no. Enjoying/doing other culture stuff is not appropriation. Naming your football team the Redskins after murdering your way across stolen land, and not listening to Native Americans who asked you to stop is appropriation. Starting a Chinese restaurant in NYC as a white lady, and billing it as ‘authentic Chinese food but with a clean restaurant!’ Is racist and appropriative. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2019/04/12/nyc-chinese-restaurant-blasted-racist-promotion-clean-food/3445548002/ Making kimchi and eating (or tbh even selling it) is not appropriation. That’s just making and enjoying good food, especially if you don’t grossly orientalize your marketing or edge out a Korean family via your social contacts or whatever if you decide to sell it.
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Sep 29, 2020 05:00
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Right the problem with cultural appropriation happens when something (food/clothes/dance/whatever) is maligned/ignored until white people suddenly decide it's cool and start making money off it. There's just a ton of grey area there and it causes misunderstandings over what the problem is or whether there is a problem or not with any given specific example.
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Sep 29, 2020 05:18
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Joe Rogan has culturally appropriated the sauna, a core building block of Finnish culture. He also does it completely wrong, doesn't even throw löyly, or drink beer while in there.
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Sep 29, 2020 07:44
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doverhog posted:Joe Rogan has culturally appropriated the sauna, a core building block of Finnish culture. He also does it completely wrong, doesn't even throw löyly, or drink beer while in there. I care deeply about this Nazi's bathing habits. e: Here's something on-topic: Il nome della rosa was Eco's first novel. For some reason I'd always assumed he was an established novelist by the 80s but: I was wrong. 3D Megadoodoo has a new favorite as of 08:02 on Sep 29, 2020 |
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Sep 29, 2020 08:00
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3D Megadoodoo posted:I care deeply about this Nazi's bathing habits. Try to stop doing that.
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Sep 29, 2020 08:06
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