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RocknRollaAyatollah posted:There's also a running theme in VtM where things were good once and are becoming increasingly worse, bastardized as they get closer to Gehenna. The Salubri, the healers and balanced in terms of humanity and power, is devoured by the Tremere, vampires obsessed with power and domination to the point that they gave up real power for fast temporal power. The Cappadocians, philosopher necromancers who wanted to ultimately dethrone God, are replaced by incestuous gangster necromancers. This is a really interesting way to frame the VTM setting and now I wann read up more on the Cappadocians. What is the best stuff for them? Their Clanbook and Player's Guide to the High Clans, I imagine? I'm worried about buying their Clanbook. See, I do like to support OPP but I also buy stuff from DTRPG because their scans are the best you can get and that means they work with TTS. My eyes suck so Kindle text-to-speech helps a lot. But there have been at least 2 or 3 books I bought that didn't work with TTS and it is annoying. And the review of Clanbook Cappadocian on DTRPG specifically says the scanjob is bad so I dunno. Also my continuing interest in Saulot has carried me on to he's potentially the founder of the Baali. Everybody should be happy Tremere at that guy. Although the Baali have like 5 different origins so.... I wonder how much of this is intentional "the truth is lost to time" and how much is just inconsistent writing or writers having different perspectives.
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Sep 30, 2020 01:20
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I remember there was that baffling situation where a ton of old scans were tremendously upgraded when ParaWW tried to get a little market fragmentation going with their own content platform. And I seem to remember that some of those updates eventually made their way to DTRPG? I know Rand was keeping an eye on that. Dunno if they upgraded everything, nor if Cappadocians was on that list even if they did.
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Sep 30, 2020 01:33
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It was updated; all of Dark Ages is OEF now.
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Sep 30, 2020 02:45
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Rand Brittain posted:It was updated; all of Dark Ages is OEF now. Oh hell yeah
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Sep 30, 2020 02:45
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Rand Brittain posted:It was updated; all of Dark Ages is OEF now. OEF? Anyway, thanks for the info. I'll look into this when I get paid Friday. I got a little list of books to buy and I'll add the Cappadocian Clanbook to it.
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Sep 30, 2020 02:51
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NikkolasKing posted:OEF? "Original Electronic File", basically a made-to-be-PDF, not a scan.
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Sep 30, 2020 03:07
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The Cappadocians' clan book was pretty good from what I recall. It and the High Clans book are what one would need to get into their backstory pretty well (there's also an adventure series called The Last Supper which is... nah, I wouldn't). They detail how Cappadocious did want to attack and dethrone (also eat) God but did stuff like organize the Feast of Folly to set himself on that path, which was essentially a ruthless pogrom of his own clan.
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Sep 30, 2020 03:46
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This has all just made me want to play Dark Ages Inquisitors again.
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Sep 30, 2020 04:48
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NikkolasKing posted:Also my continuing interest in Saulot has carried me on to he's potentially the founder of the Baali. Everybody should be happy Tremere at that guy. Although the Baali have like 5 different origins so.... A little of both. White Wolf were never good about consistency in the first place, and a lot of Vampire was deliberately written such that the origins of the clans and bloodlines were shrouded in mystery. As the line went on there were further attempts to narrow everything down to a canonical 13 clans descended from 13 Antediluvians descended from Caine in line with Noddist lore, and a lot of independent bloodlines would turn out to "actually" just be one of the 13 clans. With Vampire, eventually, you just kinda have to pick and choose what you like and go with that. Are Baali a Salubri bloodline? Descended from Ba'al-Zebub the 14th Antediluvian? Created by the Second Kiss by [Baali]? Not even Noddist at all? Who knows.
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Sep 30, 2020 09:02
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LatwPIAT posted:A little of both. White Wolf were never good about consistency in the first place, and a lot of Vampire was deliberately written such that the origins of the clans and bloodlines were shrouded in mystery. As the line went on there were further attempts to narrow everything down to a canonical 13 clans descended from 13 Antediluvians descended from Caine in line with Noddist lore, and a lot of independent bloodlines would turn out to "actually" just be one of the 13 clans. Fair enough. I guess it's a bit like the Second Generation that way. ClanbookToredor said the first Embraced vampires were a pair of lovers who killed themselves when they realized they couldn't have a child together and a heartbroken Caine forbid their names ever be spoken. I'm told this idea is only from the Toreador and other Clans have their own Second Gen myth. Anyway, The Dark Ages is great for a Tremere and especially a Goratrix fan like myself. He embodies everything I love about the Tremere.  The Antitribu get basically nothing so the most he gets is TDA stuff. But there is a lot of it. This is from Ashen Cults discussing Goratrix's, well, cult in House Goratrix. Meanwhile I don't think V5 has done anything except give HG collectively about 5 sentences across 3 books.
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Sep 30, 2020 14:11
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NikkolasKing posted:The Antitribu get basically nothing so the most he gets is TDA stuff. But there is a lot of it. This is from Ashen Cults discussing Goratrix's, well, cult in House Goratrix. Meanwhile I don't think V5 has done anything except give HG collectively about 5 sentences across 3 books. Isn't this because they've basically junked the Sabbat in favor of making an Anarchs vs. Camarilla setting?
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Sep 30, 2020 14:19
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Kavak posted:Isn't this because they've basically junked the Sabbat in favor of making an Anarchs vs. Camarilla setting? Pretty much yeah. The Sabbat so far in V5 are "Over there doing stuff just off camera, we swear"
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Sep 30, 2020 14:43
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It wouldn't feel as forced if they didn't decide that every single independent is now joining one side or the other, including the Necromancy Smoothie clan.
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Sep 30, 2020 14:51
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The idea of the Anarchs as a united side is more than a little funny, as someone who is looking into this from the outside.
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Sep 30, 2020 14:59
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Mors Rattus posted:The idea of the Anarchs as a united side is more than a little funny, as someone who is looking into this from the outside. Yeah. They're very much not. It's kind of a "disunited opposition" type situation.
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Sep 30, 2020 15:07
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Mors Rattus posted:The idea of the Anarchs as a united side is more than a little funny, as someone who is looking into this from the outside. The Gangrel joined them. I don't know why or how the clan has enough structure to join anything/.
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Sep 30, 2020 15:07
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NikkolasKing posted:This is a really interesting way to frame the VTM setting and now I wann read up more on the Cappadocians. I could be wrong but I think the clanbook purchase goes to White Wolf/Paradox/Modiphius or whomever because it was made under White Wolf and they own the license. Only the V20 Dark Ages stuff goes to OPP to knowledge. The clanbook and the Player's Guide to the High Clans are your best bets and I remember them actually being pretty good as far as White Wolf stuff goes. I've also always felt the Dark Ages stuff was better written but that might just be personal preference. Dawgstar posted:The Cappadocians' clan book was pretty good from what I recall. It and the High Clans book are what one would need to get into their backstory pretty well (there's also an adventure series called The Last Supper which is... nah, I wouldn't). They detail how Cappadocious did want to attack and dethrone (also eat) God but did stuff like organize the Feast of Folly to set himself on that path, which was essentially a ruthless pogrom of his own clan. I feel like the Feast of Folly, narratively, was kind of setting Cappadocious up for getting killed, which was part of his plan in that ridiculous "All according to my plan!" sense. He was also experimenting with who would be the right candidates to help him unlock his ultimate goal and the Feast of Folly was him cleaning house of all the Cappadocians he thought were failures or dead ends. It's also where the Harbingers of the Skull came from because a bunch of the attendees got sealed away instead of slaughtered. Cappadocious' whole thing with experimenting was finding the right kind of necromancy to achieve his goal of diablerizing God and his own was inadequate. The Mortis Path of Necromancy is focused on the physical remains of the dead so it wasn't really up to the task. The Giovanni specialized in wraiths and the Shadowlands in their paths so he found them very promising. They were also a departure from his usual focuses, who were usually religious orders or adherents because he himself subscribed to his own version of Christianity. They weren't restricted to Christianity from what I remember, just that type of common scholar for the time. EDIT: I still think the Hecata being a single clan is dumb, and I understand why they chose to do it, but it should be a new "independent" faction. A grab bag of all the necromancy clans and bloodlines doesn't really make sense under VtM but it's V5 so uh guess they just shrug and go, "It's simpler now." OPP is obviously doing a better job about things, not hard, but that whole thing just seemed dumb. RocknRollaAyatollah fucked around with this message at 15:15 on Sep 30, 2020 |
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Sep 30, 2020 15:10
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joylessdivision posted:Pretty much yeah. The Sabbat so far in V5 are "Over there doing stuff just off camera, we swear" And also one of their two founding clans joined the Camarilla. Now I really enjoy the Shadows of New York and Julia is pretty rad, but it still feels like they didn't give much thought what to do with the Sabbat in V5's origin.
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Sep 30, 2020 15:11
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Kavak posted:The Gangrel joined them. I don't know why or how the clan has enough structure to join anything/. Last time they were all hanging out with the werewolves, they decided.
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Sep 30, 2020 15:25
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Dawgstar posted:And also one of their two founding clans joined the Camarilla. Now I really enjoy the Shadows of New York and Julia is pretty rad, but it still feels like they didn't give much thought what to do with the Sabbat in V5's origin. Barring favoritism or ideas about making a more "black and white" central conflict, I don't think they could figure out anything interesting to do with them without Gehenna being imminent, though someone would have to interview Ken Hite or one of the other writers to figure things out.
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Sep 30, 2020 15:32
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RocknRollaAyatollah posted:I could be wrong but I think the clanbook purchase goes to White Wolf/Paradox/Modiphius or whomever because it was made under White Wolf and they own the license. Only the V20 Dark Ages stuff goes to OPP to knowledge. The clanbook and the Player's Guide to the High Clans are your best bets and I remember them actually being pretty good as far as White Wolf stuff goes. I've also always felt the Dark Ages stuff was better written but that might just be personal preference. Fair enough. I wasn't honestly sure what the money went to because I've had the current WoD situation explained to me multiple times and still find it very weird. Like, I just looked it up and Modiphius isn't even part of Paradox, they're a separate tabletop publisher. What does a tabletop publisher even do and why does fuckin' Paradox need them? When I think of publishers I think of video game publishers who are the big money people and Paradox doesn't need money or help in this. But yeah, hopefully somebody who needs my money and deserves it is getting it. I haven't actually bought that much in terms of new OPP stuff. Cults of the Blood Gods still says to preorder it on Kickstarter.... It's about the only recent thing I have an interest in. Are OPP doing Werewolf V5? I'll probably get that.
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Sep 30, 2020 15:37
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NikkolasKing posted:Like, I just looked it up and Modiphius isn't even part of Paradox, they're a separate tabletop publisher. What does a tabletop publisher even do and why does fuckin' Paradox need them? When I think of publishers I think of video game publishers who are the big money people and Paradox doesn't need money or help in this. They're licensing out development. As I understand it, Modiphus pays them to use the World of Darkness brand. They mostly likely made no money on the V5 books produced in house (Or the profit was dwarfed by a single DLC release for one of PDS' games)
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Sep 30, 2020 15:46
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Kavak posted:They're licensing out development. As I understand it, Modiphus pays them to use the World of Darkness brand. They mostly likely made no money on the V5 books produced in house (Or the profit was dwarfed by a single DLC release for one of PDS' games) Yeah, it's a licensing type deal so I imagine White Wolf/Paradox is getting a percentage of sales and probably a licensing fee. It was ultimately a way of them to come out of the whole debacle without a complete wash and not just sit on a brand like CCP did.
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Sep 30, 2020 15:57
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RocknRollaAyatollah posted:Yeah, it's a licensing type deal so I imagine White Wolf/Paradox is getting a percentage of sales and probably a licensing fee. It was ultimately a way of them to come out of the whole debacle without a complete wash and not just sit on a brand like CCP did. They did this because they finally realized the people they'd installed at White Wolf were wasting a valuable property and damaging both brands. CCP was different- they caught lightning in a bottle with EVE and could never quite manage anything else as a company. They couldn't even think of a gameplay loop for the MMO they bought them with the idea of making. I think the World of Darkness brand would have had a much better or at least more noticeable history this century if anyone else had bought them- as long as it wasn't someone truly wretched like EA or Gearbox.
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Sep 30, 2020 16:04
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At least with CCP it theoretically made sense for a massively successful MMO studio to make another MMO. I can just imagine what PFO-style dumpster fire we might have stinking up the place if WW had continued on its own and possibly tried to follow Paizo's lead when they made a million bucks by promising you paid gametime that ticked down during beta testing and $5000 destructible pubs.
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Sep 30, 2020 16:17
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That Old Tree posted:At least with CCP it theoretically made sense for a massively successful MMO studio to make another MMO. I can just imagine what PFO-style dumpster fire we might have stinking up the place if WW had continued on its own and possibly tried to follow Paizo's lead when they made a million bucks by promising you paid gametime that ticked down during beta testing and $5000 destructible pubs. You can pay to be Prince of the city on your server until somebody else pays the same amount to become Prince. Oh, no. That might actually be a gold mine.
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Sep 30, 2020 16:19
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Dawgstar posted:You can pay to be Prince of the city on your server until somebody else pays the same amount to become Prince. Please don't actually ask us to fulfill "Prince accession IOUs" because we don't know how to change that table in the database.
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Sep 30, 2020 16:22
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Dawgstar posted:You can pay to be Prince of the city on your server until somebody else pays the same amount to become Prince. Does being Prince give me a tiny crown
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Sep 30, 2020 16:22
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Mors Rattus posted:Does being Prince give me a tiny crown All of our modelers were let go. We can hire a new one if everyone subs to an extra two or three alt accounts.
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Sep 30, 2020 16:24
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That Old Tree posted:All of our modelers were let go. We can hire a new one if everyone subs to an extra two or three alt accounts. tiny crowns or we riot
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Sep 30, 2020 16:29
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Mors Rattus posted:tiny crowns or we riot We have no enforcement mechanisms to stop you but we will ask you to stop and accuse you of being a goonswarm trolling op.
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Sep 30, 2020 16:32
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You might be able to get the tiny crown. How much did the EVE monocle cost?
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Sep 30, 2020 16:51
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Dawgstar posted:You might be able to get the tiny crown. How much did the EVE monocle cost? North of $60 US depending on exchange rate at the time.
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Sep 30, 2020 17:03
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I'll be honest, there was a fair stretch of time I could've been suckered into shelling out dozens of dollars to get my vampire dressed just right.
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Sep 30, 2020 17:07
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That Old Tree posted:I'll be honest, there was a fair stretch of time I could've been suckered into shelling out dozens of dollars to get my vampire dressed just right. Oh absolutely. I've spent a lot more (in game) currency to make sure my MMO characters look their very best both in FFXIV and The Secret World when I still played the latter. That's how I know it's boffo box office. Man, CCP could have partnered with actual apparel designers and made all the money. What self-respecting Brujah would be caught (un)dead without a fresh pair of Chuck Taylors?
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Sep 30, 2020 17:59
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Dawgstar posted:And also one of their two founding clans joined the Camarilla. Now I really enjoy the Shadows of New York and Julia is pretty rad, but it still feels like they didn't give much thought what to do with the Sabbat in V5's origin. I think they officially made their return in Chicago by Night but I haven't read through it to find out why. Also just picked up Shadows of New York on switch, excited to jump into it.
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Sep 30, 2020 18:24
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I still remember the whole thing about how what your character wears says something about you and if you can't afford the fifty dollar jeans then why should anyone even bother talking to you.
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Sep 30, 2020 18:24
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Kavak posted:They did this because they finally realized the people they'd installed at White Wolf were wasting a valuable property and damaging both brands. CCP was different- they caught lightning in a bottle with EVE and could never quite manage anything else as a company. They couldn't even think of a gameplay loop for the MMO they bought them with the idea of making. I think the World of Darkness brand would have had a much better or at least more noticeable history this century if anyone else had bought them- as long as it wasn't someone truly wretched like EA or Gearbox. Yeah, that's true and I always forget that's where we got Onyx Path Publishing from. From talking with people at CCP at that time, the consensus seemed to be that once they had the MMO, then they'd start doing stuff. It was very much, "This is the first step in our media franchise!" Paradox has had more of a shotgun strategy for better or worse.
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Sep 30, 2020 18:42
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So ever since I played Bloodlines I've been really interested in the idea of True Faith and how it works in oWoD. Reading Infernalism: The Path of Screams and came across this intriguing info: quote:Supposedly, devils cannot inspire True Faith — such power is thought to belong to God (or the gods) alone. But as any Infernalist can vouch, that idea is fairly naíve; although some people claim there cannot be an “anti-faith,” diabolists with strong ties to malignant gods can (and do) manifest frightening abilities. Pulsating with greenish-black light, these damned souls revel in their perversity. Perhaps some connection to the Qlippoth, the decaying shells of old worlds, fuels this sinister devotion; or maybe the forces of Light and Darkness are far more evenly matched than the “good guys” would like to admit. Although some folk would like to deny that such Faith is possible, it infests a small but powerful elite. With it, Black Monks and Queens of Hell defile holy places, menace angels and drive the children of God from their sight. I guess nobody ever told me in so many words that TF is limited to Godly folks, even evil Godly folks, but I just kinda always assumed given all the times I've seen it or read about it. Granted, maybe this idea was retconned or changed. I noticed there's two books about infernalism in the Dark Age, this one and the much later Devil's Due. I wondered why these two books existed, why TDA needed two books dedicated to just demon worship and pacts, but then I realized the Devil's Due came after DTF and I guess was trying to explain how it all fits together while Path of Screams seems to just be operating with "yeah there's demons and Hell and stuff." I know some people I've talked to on here or maybe elsewhere kinda criticize oWoD for ultimately being very "Judao-Christian." There are gods and the Triat and all the rest of it but at its heart, they think the World of Darkness adheres to the metaphysics or worldview of the "People of teh Book." Apparently New World of Darkness escapes this and some prefer that. But I personally don't mind. It's like how in the first Book of Madness each Tradition offers their perspective on what demons are. The Akashic Brotherhood views demons as just figments of the mind, the evil of man projected outward And the rest all had their own theories, too. Ultimately, only one view is right but that doesn't bother me.
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Sep 30, 2020 19:03
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Lucita's sire, Cardinal Moncada, had True Faith 3 in himself because he was on Path of Power and the Inner Voice but that just might be a weird fluke.
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Sep 30, 2020 19:15
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