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NikkolasKing posted:So I got a couple interconnected questions. You could nearly always play the 'bad' splat. The Sabbat became one of the most interesting aspects of Revised as they were given a very thorough treatment on what it means to play an anti-hero or just that the protagonist in a story doesn't necessarily mean 'good.' The Sabbat just do what other vampires do, only with more blood, fire and chainsaws which means they're mostly a standard PC already. Even before then you had books for playing them. Ethan Skemp is on record as never wanting a Black Spiral Player's Guide explicitly because of their rape culture although they made one in W20 anyway. Phil "Forsooth and Hey Nonny Nonny" Brucato thinks Magic is Real and doesn't want you to play Nephandi because he thinks an evil wizard will come and live in your brain. One of these reasons is much better than the other. Playing the evil versions of Wraiths and Changelings (Specters and Shadow Court/Thallain, respectively) had books for such around for ages. The only one of those groups I've played a game in was the Sabbat. I don't have a desire to play any of the rest, especially a BSD for the stated reason.
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Oct 2, 2020 18:06
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The best part about that M20 warning is that there's two halves, a completely normal "Playing this deals with dark and uncomfortable subject matter so discuss and establish boundaries beforehand", and a second paragraph talking about "Shadow Play" and other poo poo. It's pretty clear someone who doesn't need a cell padded or otherwise wrote the sane part and Brucato inserted the rest, because he wouldn't be comfortable unless he warned people about potentially summoning goetic daemons or disfiguring their souls.
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Oct 2, 2020 18:12
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NikkolasKing posted:So I got a couple interconnected questions. It was mostly Mage I think that went overboard with the "do not touch" stuff, and most of the time I think it had more to do with throwing out WoD's already tenuous relationship with balance than any psychological harm from playing Professor Blight. Oh, and some judginess about how such characters should be beneath real dramatic table thespians. None of this has ever stopped them from taking your money in exchange for full-fledged rules for playing these characters. Partly because it's unthinkable to many developers and players to not use All The Rules even when you absolutely don't need to. The worst is definitely the M20 nephandi book, but the combination of the 90's and a dozen cooks per dish means this dumb bullshit has always been there and always been inconsistent. quote:Secondly, in spite of these rules, I've definitely come across people who played Nephandi or Black Spiral Dancers. Have any of you ever played a character you're not supposed to or been part of a game taht did that? My main group about 20 years ago did blender/potpourri games all the time. Once, my friend wanted to run a game that was just all whatever evil splats any player wanted to try out. The overarching plot was all our evil masters/factions scrambling to recover artifacts to unlock some demiurgic power. I started with a Baali who was going to use a web of Presence to crash the European economy as a sacrifice of strife to trigger the level 9 Daimonion power. He got mulched by a sudden werewolf early on. I played a BSD priest but wasn't feeling it, so then I switched to a Klaashaa (sp?) Nephadus. I was the only one in the group that planned ahead at all, so when we got to the final conflict I ripped everyone else's souls to shreds, laid claim to the Ultimate Evil Artifact, and when faced with the armies of Heaven I said "evil doesn't want to fight anymore, all you forces of good go home, lock the gates behind you and never come back to save the world again." My character was salty after coming to the realization that the Outer Darkness BBEGs he served were just petty dumb assholes like everyone else, so he wanted to screw literally the entire WoD, dooming it to lonely, inevitable entropy. It was some dumb, campy fun, and being me and my friends two decades ago I'm sure we were all very, very edgy too. That Old Tree fucked around with this message at 18:49 on Oct 2, 2020 |
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Oct 2, 2020 18:44
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NikkolasKing posted:In that Path of Screams book the author lists Merits and Flaws for various damned characters even though you're not supposed to play them, they are explicitly just ST characters or I guess "NPCs" to use video game terms. I've also heard you're not supposed to play Nephandi. Yet I 've got this book on playing Fomori who are super hosed up and evil and gross things. So why are some characters supposed to be playable and others not? It can't be because they do bad things. Don't expect consistency from the World of Darkness. There were a lot of writers and developers and they didn't agree with each other. It's because the person who wrote the thing about Nephandi being unsuitable for player characters thought characters specifically geared around doing the worst things were unplayable, and the people who wrote other pitch-black playable villains didn't.
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Oct 2, 2020 19:39
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NikkolasKing posted:So I got a couple interconnected questions. It's a failing of both WoD games and CofD games that NPCs are built with the same rules as PCs which means it's not always simple to tell without reading side-bars denoting authorial intent what content is meant for PCs and what is meant for NPCs.
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Oct 2, 2020 21:05
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And also it's a role-playing game, and rules really are just suggestions for where to begin. If you want to play a projector from Wraith that ends up in Yomi and comes back to their body as a sort of living Wan Kuei or some poo poo? Just do it. As long as everyone at the table is fine with it who cares?
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Oct 2, 2020 22:00
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I've heard all kinds of praise for the clan books, but what about the covenant books for Requiem? I hardly hear anything about them at all.
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Oct 3, 2020 00:04
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That Old Tree posted:I've heard all kinds of praise for the clan books, but what about the covenant books for Requiem? I hardly hear anything about them at all. The 1E books are a mixed bag. I don't remember much about the Invictus book save that it came off very dry. I'm not sure I read any of the others save for the Carthians, which I did enjoy for the little things like a giant list of favors a Carthian might want of a Carthian PC (which I believe is Greg Stolze's doing).
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Oct 3, 2020 00:09
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That Old Tree posted:I've heard all kinds of praise for the clan books, but what about the covenant books for Requiem? I hardly hear anything about them at all. Secrets of the Covenants is a fantastic book. One of the very best of the Requiem books imo.
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Oct 3, 2020 05:26
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Octavo posted:Secrets of the Covenants is a fantastic book. One of the very best of the Requiem books imo. One of my friends wrote for it, in the Ordo section with the research on vampire evolution. She does great work.
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Oct 3, 2020 06:08
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Not to derail current talk but I just wanted to add something to my earlier comment about accusations of the Old World of Darkness being "too Judao-Christian' which I'll just change to 'too Christian" since a lot of the replies in here were fair enough. Got my few books this month: Clanbook Cappadocian, Player's Guide to the Low Clans (wanted more Trenere goodness), Sins of the Blood (what do even Cainites think is too much?) and Devil's Due for more infernalism stuff. First chapter: quote:But while God did not act directly against the demons and their cults, He did do so indirectly, by inspiring and aiding humans who took up arms to resist the demons. He sent angels to guide and protect a Semitic tribe, the Hebrews, and to teach them of His holy truth. Armed with this wisdom, the Hebrews began to prosper and grow, and to pose a threat to the power of the demons. When the archduke Abaddon became aware of them, he attempted to destroy them, using the power of the Egyptian empire that worshipped him in the guise of their gods. To defend the Hebrews, God imparted further wisdom and teaching to Moses, who learned to use the divine spark within himself to work miracles. It was Moses who struck down the demon lord ling Baal, whose reliquary was a statue of a golden calf; and it was Moses, drawing on God's teachings, who warned his people against the power of demons, forbidding them to worship the graven idols that were the reliquaries of the unholy monsters. I realize for a lot of folks this will be pretty far down the list of dumb things WW did back then but it touches a nerve for me to say all the ancient gods were just soul-stealing and crazy demons in disguise. You'd think the people who gave us Mage and all its Neopaganism would have a bit more sense than that. It's one thing I always really liked about both World and Chronicles of Darkness. (speaking of Mage - I found the Infernalism: Path of Screams book way more interesting than this) I guess everybody has a list of things in canon they just quietly shove out of sight and ignore. I've never really considered what's on my list but this is definitely on it now. Also it just kinda sucks to buy a book and then it's not really....good or interesting. Oh well. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 08:14 on Oct 3, 2020 |
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Oct 3, 2020 08:11
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NikkolasKing posted:I realize for a lot of folks this will be pretty far down the list of dumb things WW did back then but it touches a nerve for me to say all the ancient gods were just soul-stealing and crazy demons in disguise. You'd think the people who gave us Mage and all its Neopaganism would have a bit more sense than that. On literally the next page there's a sidebar describing how pagan gods do exist. The most important paragraph reads: quote:It’s important to remember, though, that demons aren’t gods, and that gods aren’t “really” demons. Demonic claims of divine status are lies. Most people who worship the pagan gods actually do worship their gods directly; it’s only individual cults, corrupted by demons, that mistakenly revere a Hell-born monster.
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Oct 3, 2020 08:58
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LatwPIAT posted:On literally the next page there's a sidebar describing how pagan gods do exist. The most important paragraph reads: Well that is my bad. TTS doesn't read the sidebars in this book. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't and I missed that. Sorry again.
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Oct 3, 2020 09:12
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LatwPIAT posted:On literally the next page there's a sidebar describing how pagan gods do exist. The most important paragraph reads: So despite myself I have to ask: does this mean there are nominally Christian cults funneling power to demons presenting themselves as the demon lord Jesus? Or does this only happen to non-Christian?
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Oct 3, 2020 15:06
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It might also behoove somebody reading a Vampire book to not worry about how it fits into Mage because past a certain point as the lines went on the writers didn’t care aside from a random sidebar now and then. The cosmology of the book you’re reading always takes precedent.
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Oct 3, 2020 15:11
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Dawgstar posted:It might also behoove somebody reading a Vampire book to not worry about how it fits into Mage because past a certain point as the lines went on the writers didn’t care aside from a random sidebar now and then. The cosmology of the book you’re reading always takes precedent. This is the most important thing about World of Darkness in my opinion. Especially for Hunter where monsters should work however you want, and keeps people's out of game knowledge from making the Werewolf encounter survivable. Really, unless you are actively playing Mage, don't even think about that line. My scheming vampire doesn't need all that nonsense.
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Oct 3, 2020 15:39
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Joe Slowboat posted:So despite myself I have to ask: does this mean there are nominally Christian cults funneling power to demons presenting themselves as the demon lord Jesus? Or does this only happen to non-Christian? The viewpoint character for Demon: the Fallen intro fiction literally sets up a Christianity-themed cult to give him power.
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Oct 3, 2020 19:01
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Joe Slowboat posted:So despite myself I have to ask: does this mean there are nominally Christian cults funneling power to demons presenting themselves as the demon lord Jesus? Or does this only happen to non-Christian? I don't think the demons have ever pulled the 'I'm Jesus' trick, maybe because they know he could come gently caress them up for it, but they've definitely misrepresented themselves as angels before, because it's half-true, and they also do the regular old 'weird sect of Christianity' trick.
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Oct 3, 2020 22:17
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NikkolasKing posted:Not to derail current talk but I just wanted to add something to my earlier comment about accusations of the Old World of Darkness being "too Judao-Christian' which I'll just change to 'too Christian" since a lot of the replies in here were fair enough.
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Oct 3, 2020 22:41
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Joe Slowboat posted:So despite myself I have to ask: does this mean there are nominally Christian cults funneling power to demons presenting themselves as the demon lord Jesus? Or does this only happen to non-Christian? Yup. There are also Christian cults that funnel power to vampires, mages, and werewolves.
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Oct 3, 2020 23:11
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Zereth posted:"Judeo-Christian" isn't really a thing. The actual religions are too different. I've never heard "Judeo-Christian" used to imply that they're the same religion. It's pretty much always used as a term to describe the historical-political dialectic between Judaism & Christianity in Europe, although at least as often it means "Christians who have a particularly odd focus on the Old Testament." It's still worth being very critical of because the real payload of the term is that Christianity/Europe has meaningful dialogue with Judaism, to the exclusion of Islam (and other religions but especially Islam) as being part of the European cultural and historical tradition. Has as much to do with Christians thinking that having read the Old Testament means they understand Judaism as it does with the political project to excise Islamic philosophy and history from the Western canon. Dawgstar posted:It might also behoove somebody reading a Vampire book to not worry about how it fits into Mage because past a certain point as the lines went on the writers didn’t care aside from a random sidebar now and then. The cosmology of the book you’re reading always takes precedent. It's definitely the approach I prefer. A couple of the books get a little more in depth about (the Silver Refinement in Promethean requires that other supernaturals at least somewhat exist), but really the cosmologies of the different sets pull in so many directions that it's mostly 'interesting suggestions that collapse under any significant amount of pressure.'
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Oct 3, 2020 23:11
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The Chronicles' cosmology fits together without a hitch and that's a good thing. e: like seriously it is nothing but upsides unless you're the poor writer/editor tasked with keeping track of it all having a unified framework doesn't preclude variations in theme crossover play is both fun and something the ChroD explicitly markets itself on re: a bunch of supplements (balance is an issue but frankly within-splat balance isn't actually that much better to begin with) and having a bunch of supernatural splats that are interrelated through shared history, cosmology, and metaphysics but each have different struggles and motivations is just really cool in itself. prometheans constructing their understanding of humanity in contrast to vampires, woof antagonists being larval forms of demon's primary antagonist, mages getting stranded in the Hedge because of how its properties interact with mana, that poo poo owns and i don't know why anyone would be in a rush to sweep it away the oWoD can't really do this sort of thing because it's stuck with sloppily constructed legacy canon that players are too attached to to abandon (even though a ton of it straight-up sucks for reasons ranging from "this is thematically incoherent" to "this is actually offensive in real life") but there's no reason that model should be deliberately replicated when you have the option of going with a more intentional design from the start Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 23:31 on Oct 3, 2020 |
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Oct 3, 2020 23:14
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Oh hey, I've been spelling Judeo-Christian wrong all this time. My bad. Anyway, in a history of American religion course I listened to, they said the term was first created in I think the 70s to form a conservative religious alliance against things like abortion and feminism.
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Oct 3, 2020 23:31
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Tulip posted:I've never heard "Judeo-Christian" used to imply that they're the same religion. It's pretty much always used as a term to describe the historical-political dialectic between Judaism & Christianity in Europe, although at least as often it means "Christians who have a particularly odd focus on the Old Testament." NikkolasKing posted:Anyway, in a history of American religion course I listened to, they said the term was first created in I think the 70s to form a conservative religious alliance against things like abortion and feminism.
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Oct 3, 2020 23:42
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If nothing else, Christianity cares a lot more about having some central authority than Judaism. With the former you had a lot of church doctrine banged out at the Council of Nicaea in the 300s, and even if the Protestants ignore the pope they still have their own governing bodies or whatever that decide policy. It was just this year, in fact, that the United Methodist Church as a whole considered a schism over LGBT issues. (Thankfully my mother's church supports LGBT rights.) Judaism in contrast hasn't had that kind of central and active governance since the diaspora, IIRC. (Full disclosure: I was raised Christian but became agnostic in my teens.)
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Oct 4, 2020 00:59
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NikkolasKing posted:Oh hey, I've been spelling Judeo-Christian wrong all this time. My bad. Except that Jewish law is perfectly fine with abortion, it is actually the woman's legal right. It's a nonsense term invented by Christians who want to pat themselves on the back and pretend like they're inclusive and give even half a gently caress about anyone following any faith beyond their own
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Oct 4, 2020 19:25
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MollyMetroid posted:Except that Jewish law is perfectly fine with abortion, it is actually the woman's legal right. It's a nonsense term invented by Christians who want to pat themselves on the back and pretend like they're inclusive and give even half a gently caress about anyone following any faith beyond their own Christianity has a historical "ok with abortion" tradition as well. The Catholic term "quickening" refers to when fetal movement is first perceived, and for a long time abortion pre-quickening was fine. The turn against abortion really only kicked in in 1857, and that was the doctors first. Basically, a lot of claims that get made today about unbroken ancient origins are bullshit and frequently younger than your grandparents. Turns out history is a series of events not a single continuous line.
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Oct 4, 2020 21:27
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This British series Ghosts is moderately decent rubbish but also gives me big Wraith vibes in terms of how some of the Wraith games I've actually played have gone. The first episode has a scene where they're trying to dole out their memories and recollections to stave off the long miseries of eternal undeath by having something, anything, to do and it's very Wraith.
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Oct 5, 2020 00:13
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Has anybody else been playing the Choice of Games' Vampire: The Masquerade: Night Road? Dropped on Steam not long ago and it's pretty good. Like a lot of COG stuff you get to determine your character a decent amount, and you start off doing courier work where things, ah, progress from there.
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Oct 5, 2020 15:21
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gently caress, drop whatever you're browsing and watch Bones (2001). It's Wraith: The Oblivion: The Film and it rules. There's even a harrowing, seriously it's a movie I never knew I needed to see.
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Oct 5, 2020 23:50
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Dawgstar posted:Ethan Skemp is on record as never wanting a Black Spiral Player's Guide explicitly because of their rape culture although they made one in W20 anyway. Oh right, that was the book with the hilarious update on Black Dog Game Factory. Man, those books had really divergent tones. "(One incident involved Coriander tracking a fan down at a convention and stabbing him with a pen full of Wyrm toxin because the fan questioned his use of the semicolon on a Revenant forum.)"
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Oct 6, 2020 00:10
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Ethan said he didn't want to do a Tribebook: Black Spiral Dancers, because tribebooks are necessarily written from the perspective of the subjects, and he didn't want a book written IC by Black Spirals who've bought into the Black Spiral culture. That's not the same thing as not wanting to give them a chapter in a Book of the Wyrm, which have always been written as antagonist books written from a largely out-of-character perspective.
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Oct 6, 2020 01:11
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moths posted:gently caress, drop whatever you're browsing and watch Bones (2001). It's Wraith: The Oblivion: The Film and it rules. oh my god Pam Grier's in it now I have no choice
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Oct 6, 2020 01:35
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Stephenls posted:Ethan said he didn't want to do a Tribebook: Black Spiral Dancers, because tribebooks are necessarily written from the perspective of the subjects, and he didn't want a book written IC by Black Spirals who've bought into the Black Spiral culture. That's not the same thing as not wanting to give them a chapter in a Book of the Wyrm, which have always been written as antagonist books written from a largely out-of-character perspective. Plus, weren't there character creation rules for BSDs in at least WtA core revised/3rd, if not earlier?
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Oct 6, 2020 01:44
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That Old Tree posted:Plus, weren't there character creation rules for BSDs in at least WtA core revised/3rd, if not earlier? Revised gave their starting Willpower and enough Gifts that you could make one as a starting character, yeah.
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Oct 6, 2020 03:32
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https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/339646881/ghost-hunters-for-world-of-darkness-20th-anniversary?ref=DriveThruRPG New Kickstarter for WoD 20th In the World of Darkness, a mortal’s first brush with the supernatural may be real — or it may be a trick of the mind. While many may not believe creatures like vampires or werewolves exist, most are willing to entertain the idea that ghosts do. Whether someone is convinced their lover is haunting them from beyond the grave, or they’re certain tragic, if not violent, deaths cause ghosts to appear, mortals assume there is an afterlife and spirits are real. Mortals are so determined to prove ghosts are real they often go to great lengths to investigate the supernatural, whether they believe in it or not. World of Darkness: Ghost Hunters presents paranormal investigation from a mortal’s perspective. Chapters cover skeptical ghost hunters, well-organized groups, natural mediums, and their families and the equipment they use to uncover the “truth” that ghosts are real. In the World of Darkness, however, paranormal investigators may unwittingly stumble across any one of its other denizens, putting themselves (and the creatures they encounter) at risk. Whether they’re the protagonists of a chronicle or the antagonists pursuing a wraith or one of the Kindred, ghost hunters introduce a new way to tell compelling stories using the 20th Anniversary World of Darkness games. Ghost hunters explore the supernatural and investigate the darkest, often oldest corners of the world, even when other mortals are too scared to linger in the shadows. A paranormal investigator doesn’t have to be skilled or an expert in the occult to hunt, nor do they have to believe the things that go bump in the night are real. As protagonists, mortals are often totally unaware of what they’re getting themselves into. What starts out as a spooky evening at a haunted house quickly turns to dread when a skeptic cannot deny the things they’ve seen and believed. Even paranormal investigators who do believe in the supernatural will not know the full extent of their ignorance until they encounter a wraith who’s eager to toy with them. World of Darkness: Ghost HuntersWorld of Darkness: Ghost Hunters covers a variety of paranormal investigators in the World of Darkness who are eager to unlock the secrets of the supernatural. The final book will contain the following chapters: Chapter One: Origins of the Hunt shows modern ghost hunting in the World of Darkness through a series of in-character journal entries, e-mails, and news articles detailing its history and rise in popularity. This chapter reveals how the explosion of paranormal investigators has been both a blessing and a curse to “serious” ghost hunters. Chapter Two: Tools, Tactics, and Troubles covers the methodology and common practices of paranormal investigators. This chapter then talks about how ghost hunters find cases, how they recruit new members, and how they set up shop when investigating a possible haunting or other sighting. Chapter Three: Ghost-Hunting Organizations introduces a variety of organizations that hunt ghosts, search for haunted artifacts, and are obsessed with lore. Groups like the Orphic Circle and the Chamber of Corvi reveal their modus operandi, how they recruit or hire outside investigators, and whether those organizations are fronts for something much darker. Chapter Four: Mediums highlights the existence of mediums, both real and fake, while covering how they intersect with ghost hunting. This chapter introduces types of mediums within different occult traditions, and families who’ve inherited such abilities over generations. Chapter Five: Character Creation details how to create mortal player characters to investigate the paranormal. It introduces new Merits & Flaws, new Backgrounds, Numina, and equipment that’ll help them discover and deal with ghosts. Chapter Six: Case Files comprises a series of in-character journal entries by one ghost hunter, documenting police reports, newspaper clippings, and e-mails detailing possible haunted houses, monster sightings, and unexplained murders and/or disappearances. Chapter Seven: Storytelling ties the book together by showing how paranormal investigators can be introduced as player characters or as antagonists in a 20th Anniversary World of Darkness chronicle. Storytellers will find this chapter loaded with advice on how to introduce this aspect into an existing game or launch a new chronicle. Appendix: Ghosts and the Undead provides a set of generalized rules for ghosts that can be used in place of Storyteller rules found in 20th Anniversary game lines such as Wraith: The Oblivion or Vampire: The Masquerade. Kickstarter Reward Descriptions ACCESS TO MANUSCRIPT PREVIEW UPDATES – During the course of the campaign, we will be posting the ENTIRE manuscript for World of Darkness: Ghost Hunters. These previews will be shared via Backer-Only updates. You must be a backer of this project to receive these updates. WORLD OF DARKNESS: GHOST HUNTERS PDF VERSION - The digital version of Ghost Hunters, fulfilled by our partners at DriveThruRPG.com. Kickstarter backers will receive a redemption link for an early version, before it goes on sale to the public. This initial "Backer Version" will be used to get feedback from the fans to make the final version the best that it can be. When it has been updated to the final version, it will be automatically added to your DriveThruRPG library and available for download at your convenience. OF DARKNESS: GHOST HUNTERS DELUXE HARDCOVER VERSION- The main goal of this campaign is to fund the creation, production, and print run of a beautiful deluxe edition of the game. Note that all Reward Tiers that include the Hardcover version also include the PDF version as a bonus. Additional shipping charges are automatically added to your pledge by Kickstarter, based on your delivery location. OPTIONAL "AT COST" PoD VERSION – For World of Darkness: Ghost Hunters, you will have the option of using DriveThruRPG.com’s Print-On-Demand service to purchase a physical, printed copy directly from their PoD partners at as close as we can get to the cost of printing and shipping (this cost is not included in your pledge, and you do not need to increase the cost of your pledge to use this option). When the PoD versions are available to order (which will be some time after the book has gone to print), you will receive links to purchase these versions of the book from DriveThruRPG.com. You DO NOT need to take advantage of this PoD offer as it does not affect in any way your pledge rewards. The Kickstarter for the Deluxe edition of Ghost Hunters for World of Darkness 20th Anniversary Edition has just launched! Don't miss out, support this project at Kickstarter.com!
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Oct 6, 2020 19:53
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Trying to understand what "Ghost Hunters" is about. So is this a new "game line", but it uses the 20th Anniversary rules and you need another of the core books? Or is it a reboot of some obscure book that existed in the 90s? I might pledge, I miss old Hunter so much and I guess this is the closest we'll ever be to a 20th Anniversary revamp of it 
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Oct 6, 2020 23:38
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It's a new book for the 20th Anniversary line that's kind of a minor character splat and doesn't contain the core ruleset on its own, kind of like how you need Dark Ages Vampire to play Dark Ages Inquisitor or Dark Ages Fae even if no vampires ever show up in your game. Seems like it's kind of like if Hunters Hunted were about paranormal investigators and cable network ghost hunters instead of vampire killers and low-rent Van Helsings?
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Oct 6, 2020 23:53
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Huh, it's just like Hunter 20 except loving lame.
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Oct 7, 2020 00:56
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I have no idea why the gently caress they wouldn't just do Hunter, but conversely I figured 20th was dead as hell.
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Oct 7, 2020 01:30
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