|
EmpyreanFlux posted:???  spire is a low-profile slug cooler with no heatpipes and not even a copper core after AMD cut that cost and cranked up the fan speed to compensate. there's no AMD magic that gets you around the thermodynamics involved here, it's outperformed by cheap midsize heatpipe tower coolers. Bigger tower and heatpipes move heat better than a low-profile slug cooler period. Wraith max does have heatpipes, but there's no replacement for displacement either, it's basically what would be considered a low profile cooler in the aftermarket. that's not to say that it's not better than what intel gives you, but it's not a particularly cool or quiet cooler, and it's not the high-value pack-in that everyone implies it to be. In the before-times a hyper 212 evo used to run you $15-20 depending on the deals, that's about what the spire is worth. the value may be better in current times where the real cheap stuff has been snapped up (hyper 212 evo is $35 right now), but even in these times and even considering the max instead of the spire, just browsing around on amazon you can get a Be Quiet Pure Rock Slim for $35 and that's probably the equivalent to the Max. A Scythe Mugen rev B for $50 would be a significantly better cooler than even the max, so the pack-in value of the Max is maybe $30. if you want to put a positive spin on this, the real magic is that AMD processors run cool and efficiently enough that a low-profile slug cooler can keep it at reasonable operating temperatures. But the cooler itself - not great. It's not particularly cool and it's pretty loud for the temps it gets you. It does the job adequately, at stock, if you are not particularly noise sensitive. are they "better than everything except a high-end cooler"? no. and you avoided mentioning it, but the wraith stealth is much worse than the above two as well, it struggles with even a 3600, and that's the tier where the pack-in matters the most. Paul MaudDib fucked around with this message at 23:29 on Oct 4, 2020 |
#
?
Oct 4, 2020 20:06
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 8, 2024 10:31 |
|
|
sean10mm posted:If your PC does what you want it to do, then don't upgrade it. yeah this is the point I'm at, my cpu is a 4-core i7 2600k, my mobo a MSI P67A-C45 (MS-7673) (SOCKET 0), my ram is as old and ddr3, only reason it holds up at all for gaming is because my old PSU died and took the gpu with it a few years ago so I bought a 740w and a 970. it's for sure time for an upgrade
|
|
#
?
Oct 4, 2020 22:12
|
|
|
Paul MaudDib posted:
Spires are usually adequate for stock, and the copper cored ones seem to have similar performance to an NH-L9a (per phoronix https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=noctua-nhl9-am4&num=1). It sucks complete rear end they gutted the Spire recently though. Wraith Max is apparently EVO212 levels as well, worse noise but roughly equal thermals with the edge slightly in the 212s favor (https://www.anandtech.com/show/11407/140-mm-slim-tower-cpu-cooler-roundup, check the testing results, the 212 only pulls away in noise). Noise does suck, but Wraith Max performance means it works for the vast majority of users and also means you need something like 140mm tower to make it a worthwhile upgrade (but if noise matters to you and not raw performance than a 120mm tower is a must of course!). FWIW, in the link I posted the Pure Rock Slim actually trounces the Max in sound and performance so for 35$ that's drat good. I did mention the stealth, right at the end of what you just quoted? I said it was bad, mildly better than stock Intel but that's like comparing garbage to trash. If I were to make changes to AMDs stock cooler line up, it'd be down to obliterating the stealth from existence, using a similar design as the NH-L9a or G200P to replace the Spire, and a similar design to the Mugen rev B as a replacement for the Wraith Max. Call them the Wraith Slipstream and Wraith Maelstrom for maximum Threadippery branding.
|
|
#
?
Oct 4, 2020 22:56
|
|
|
I'm planning on going to a tower cooler when I do a CPU upgrade - the Wraith Spire has been okay with the 3600X if a bit noisy.
|
|
#
?
Oct 4, 2020 23:03
|
|
|
EmpyreanFlux posted:Spires are usually adequate for stock, and the copper cored ones seem to have similar performance to an NH-L9a (per phoronix https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=noctua-nhl9-am4&num=1). It sucks complete rear end they gutted the Spire recently though. I mean noise is pretty important when evaluating a cooler. More noise for the same result is... bad. Even on a tight budget something like the pure rock or pure rock slim are absolutely worth the upgrade and they are far from the high end (nh-d15s, dark rock pro4) or even midrange (something like the fuma 2).
|
|
#
?
Oct 4, 2020 23:14
|
|
|
VorpalFish posted:I mean noise is pretty important when evaluating a cooler. More noise for the same result is... bad. Even on a tight budget something like the pure rock or pure rock slim are absolutely worth the upgrade and they are far from the high end (nh-d15s, dark rock pro4) or even midrange (something like the fuma 2). Look at the noise level again in the article, the their lower settings the EVO 212 is 34dB and the Max is 34.8dB. For 150W, Delta over ambient is 31°C for the EVO 212, for the Wraith it's 31.9°C. That's directly comparable. It's only @ full load does the EVO 212 pull ahead in noise in and thermally, but that's @ 40.4dB (to the Max's 44.7dB). Notice the Delta between the lower and max settings though, it's not really worth it to run either at full blast. Could be the smaller fan design produces more whine or has an unfavorable sound? I only really notice it when it decides to go all out. Considering the difference between full blast and the lowest settings, I just run mine a little above that and it's not a huge deal. I agree that if you have you can spare 35$, 100% get a Pure Rock Slim and you'll notice a massive difference.
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2020 05:10
|
|
|
EmpyreanFlux posted:Look at the noise level again in the article, the their lower settings the EVO 212 is 34dB and the Max is 34.8dB. For 150W, Delta over ambient is 31°C for the EVO 212, for the Wraith it's 31.9°C. That's directly comparable. that's not directly comparable, it's 30-50% louder and 1C higher
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2020 05:54
|
|
|
Paul MaudDib posted:that's not directly comparable, it's 30-50% louder and 1C higher 1dB difference is barely perceptible, I don't even know what you're on about. Same with 1C, that barely registers as a difference.
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2020 11:26
|
|
|
Paul is contracturally obligated to poo poo all over anything AMD 24/7 is all, don't mind him.
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2020 11:34
|
|
|
Paul MaudDib posted:that's not directly comparable, it's 30-50% louder and 1C higher I mostly agree that the bundled CPU coolers aren't great but lol at "1db is actually 50% louder because log scale  "Used the Stealth for a bit on my non-x 2600 and it wasn't *too* bad after loosening the fan curve.
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2020 11:48
|
|
|
EmpyreanFlux posted:1dB difference is barely perceptible It's not a linear scale. It doubles every 10 decibels.
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2020 11:50
|
|
|
Zedsdeadbaby posted:It's not a linear scale. It doubles every 10 decibels. it's 10x every 10 decibels https://pulsarinstruments.com/en/post/understanding-3db-rule 3db is double in audible (dba) terms, and the scale is log so 1db is much more than the 2nd or 3rd db. 1db really is 30-50% louder. Paul MaudDib fucked around with this message at 11:58 on Oct 5, 2020 |
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2020 11:52
|
|
|
PC LOAD LETTER posted:Paul is contracturally obligated to poo poo all over anything AMD 24/7 is all, don't mind him. i think theyre among the more quantifiably accurate posters in general on these forums and i value the input they provide
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2020 11:52
|
|
|
i think ears do a ton of work in moderating noises and two noises that are not side-by-side that differ by 1dB may or may not be distinguishable, and i dont think you could say like wow thats way louder just by looking at those numbers if you played two perfectly identical frequency tones side by side that differ by 1dB you could probably pick it out but two fans it seems unlikely edit: here actually https://www.audiocheck.net/blindtests_level.php?lvl=0.5 1 is pretty easy, 0.5 i get wrong, and this is about as sterile as it gets. fans are gonna be muddier Verviticus fucked around with this message at 12:02 on Oct 5, 2020 |
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2020 11:58
|
|
|
Verviticus posted:i think ears do a ton of work in moderating noises and two noises that are not side-by-side that differ by 1dB may or may not be distinguishable, and i dont think you could say like wow thats way louder just by looking at those numbers perceptual sound is actually really complex and not at all easy to interpret just by actual sound pressure levels ("dB"), tone/frequency matters a lot (see: noctua) but lol if you think the slug cooler with the high-RPM fan is coming out on top of any of that poo poo Paul MaudDib fucked around with this message at 12:11 on Oct 5, 2020 |
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2020 12:01
|
|
|
Paul MaudDib posted:it's actually really complex and not at all easy to interpret just by actual sound pressure levels, tone matters a lot (see: noctua) yeah honestly i dont really know much about coolers and i would be a bad source of info cause i have the stock cooler with my 3700x and i cant hear it because i have a 21? inch fan going at all times for white noise, lol
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2020 12:03
|
|
|
Paul MaudDib posted:it's 10x every 10 decibels Anyway here's another Wraith vs normal coolers test that better shows that 120mm towers (Kotetsu and H7) are solidly a class above the big Wraiths: https://www.computerbase.de/2018-05/amd-wraith-prism-boxed-kuehler-test/2/#abschnitt_kuehlvermoegen_ueber_schalldruckpegel
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2020 12:11
|
|
|
Verviticus posted:yeah honestly i dont really know much about coolers and i would be a bad source of info cause i have the stock cooler with my 3700x and i cant hear it because i have a 21? inch fan going at all times for white noise, lol on the plus side you should be able to have a very cool PC then! fan noise doesnt bother me a ton, but i found it a fun exercise to try and make my computer silent as possible on air, regardless
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2020 12:14
|
|
|
Llamadeus posted:3dB is double in energy, a doubling in perceptual loudness is closer to 10dB (eg: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sone) I don't think they were measuring in sone but I guess it may be analogous to dba idk but yeah there's numbers! that's better than arguing about thermodynamics and heatpipes and poo poo. wraith max gets owned by the cryorig h7 or scythe kotetsu mk2 (similar to the pure rock slim) let alone a 280mm cooler, vs a small tower cooler it's 10 degrees worse and vs an AIO it's 20 degrees worse per noise normalized performance and that's before they took the copper core out of the wraith prism Paul MaudDib fucked around with this message at 12:29 on Oct 5, 2020 |
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2020 12:17
|
|
|
I was originally planning to just go for the 3700X equivalent in Zen3 but I'm thinking about just going for the fattest 5900/5950 and riding it for as long as I can, seeing as I'll be having to change motherboard after Zen3 anyway.
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2020 12:26
|
|
|
EmpyreanFlux posted:If I were to make changes to AMDs stock cooler line up, it'd be down to obliterating the stealth from existence, using a similar design as the NH-L9a or G200P to replace the Spire, and a similar design to the Mugen rev B as a replacement for the Wraith Max. Call them the Wraith Slipstream and Wraith Maelstrom for maximum Threadippery branding. I do like this btw
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2020 12:54
|
|
|
EmpyreanFlux posted:Look at the noise level again in the article, the their lower settings the EVO 212 is 34dB and the Max is 34.8dB. For 150W, Delta over ambient is 31°C for the EVO 212, for the Wraith it's 31.9°C. That's directly comparable. It's only @ full load does the EVO 212 pull ahead in noise in and thermally, but that's @ 40.4dB (to the Max's 44.7dB). Notice the Delta between the lower and max settings though, it's not really worth it to run either at full blast. The other issue is that you're comparing it to the hyper 212, which itself is substantially outperformed by... Other low end tower air coolers. The statement "it's only worth replacing if you go extremely high end" is just not true when there are options between $35-$50 that absolutely dumpster it in acoustic efficiency.
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2020 13:07
|
|
|
ijyt posted:I was originally planning to just go for the 3700X equivalent in Zen3 but I'm thinking about just going for the fattest 5900/5950 and riding it for as long as I can, seeing as I'll be having to change motherboard after Zen3 anyway. I do wonder how this AM5 transition will be now that DDR5 is gonna be a while. Are we just gonna see manufacturers branch into something like DDR4+PCIe 4.0 and DDR5+PCIe 5.0 simultaneously?
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2020 16:23
|
|
|
ufarn posted:I do wonder how this AM5 transition will be now that DDR5 is gonna be a while. Are we just gonna see manufacturers branch into something like DDR4+PCIe 4.0 and DDR5+PCIe 5.0 simultaneously? on the same board, like they did with previous transitions 
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2020 16:32
|
|
|
Paul MaudDib posted:perceptual sound is actually really complex and not at all easy to interpret just by actual sound pressure levels ("dB"), tone/frequency matters a lot (see: noctua) Why do keep trying to make it sound like I'm calling the Spire at all comparable when I keep talking about the Max, which is a dual heatpipe design? Paul MaudDib posted:and that's before they took the copper core out of the wraith prism They didn't, they took it out of the Spire, not the Max/Prism. Llamadeus posted:3dB is double in energy, a doubling in perceptual loudness is closer to 10dB (eg: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sone) Looking up all the coolers that curbstomp it, they're all $50+ right now based on a quick search. That could be considered cost prohibitive for people, and in such a case the Max seems to perform adequately. But then my perception of what performs well maybe be skewed and I'm basically being a boomer, but PC parts. VorpalFish posted:The other issue is that you're comparing it to the hyper 212, which itself is substantially outperformed by... Other low end tower air coolers. I've been so used to the 212 being a normal, standard recommendation that it being mediocre is news to me. So I can entirely concede the point, since the Wraith Max isn't just the standard cooler and only comes with higher end parts, which if you're buying a 3700X/3900X and don't have the $35 to spare would be a rare occurrence. If the Wraith Max appeared in budget conscious SKUs maybe my argument would have a foundation to rest on.
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2020 16:53
|
|
|
EmpyreanFlux posted:I've been so used to the 212 being a normal, standard recommendation that it being mediocre is news to me. I get what you're saying, but there's no conflict in this. It's a standard recommendation because it's cheap, straightforward to install and has broad compatibility. It won't keep up if you go over around 120W but that's fine for most builds, I used them myself on an i7-920 and a 2500K. When I replaced that i7-920 with a six-core Westmere Xeon and started really pushing it hard, I had to get a big Noctua with six heatpipes because you can't push 200W through a 212.
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2020 17:37
|
|
|
Eletriarnation posted:I get what you're saying, but there's no conflict in this. It's a standard recommendation because it's cheap, straightforward to install and has broad compatibility. It won't keep up if you go over around 120W but that's fine for most builds, I used them myself on an i7-920 and a 2500K. When I replaced that i7-920 with a six-core Westmere Xeon and started really pushing it hard, I had to get a big Noctua with six heatpipes because you can't push 200W through a 212. I'm saying it shouldn't be the standard anymore - it's been surpassed by things like the aforementioned pure rock slim at the same price point and similar compatibility. The hyper 212 recommendation is obsolete.
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2020 17:42
|
|
|
Wait ignore everything I just said I got their models crossed - its the shadow rock slim, not the pure rock slim. So the reasonable bequiet options start at $45 for the pure rock non slim which I guess leaves a place for the hyper 212 in cost limited builds.
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2020 17:54
|
|
|
Yeah, it's definitely been surpassed but if the difference is so small as to be imperceptible and the 212 is on sale then it's not some great mistake to save your  . The key in my mind is just to make sure the capability of whatever cooler you buy is a healthy margin over your predicted CPU power consumption so that you can actually keep the fan on low.
Eletriarnation fucked around with this message at 17:59 on Oct 5, 2020 |
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2020 17:56
|
|
|
I wish I could find it, but I'm pretty sure I read something about how most people in the enthusiast space end up way overprovisioning their CPU cooling
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2020 18:03
|
|
|
EmpyreanFlux posted:Call them the Wraith Slipstream and Wraith Maelstrom for maximum Threadippery branding. Wraith Heatripper This is the cooler that was recommended to me as being cheap but much better than the 212 EVO for AM4 Ryzen at more or less the same low price: https://www.techpowerup.com/review/id-cooling-se-224-xt-basic-se-224-xt-argb/ I don't have a finished system yet to test it though. FuturePastNow fucked around with this message at 18:15 on Oct 5, 2020 |
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2020 18:10
|
|
|
FuturePastNow posted:Wraith Heatripper Wraith Squadron
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2020 18:12
|
|
|
I dunno what equipment anandtech was using for their sound measurements in that article EmpyreanFlux linked, but I'm extremely puzzled by those 7V results. At 12V the wraith does 3k RPM, and is perfectly matched with an intel sink that's also doing 3k RPM and not quite 45 dB. At 7V, the wraith at 2k RPM is hugely separated from the intel and has a result in line with a bunch of 1k RPM fans. That just doesn't jive with common sense, other reviews of fans, or just experience hearing fans in general. I think the 12V result is more likely to be accurate: the wraith max is thermally fine, but not as good as even a cheap hyper 212. A 3dB increase is non-trivial when it comes to heatsink results, whatever the actual impact of 3db is to your ears. If wraith maxes were available free with lower-end models, or there was some special edition of the 3600 that came with a max for $15 extra, they'd be amazing for budget builders. But people building with 3700X and better can generally afford a better sink, good options for $50 absolutely destroy it. gradenko_2000 posted:I wish I could find it, but I'm pretty sure I read something about how most people in the enthusiast space end up way overprovisioning their CPU cooling It's true, I think it's the lingering influence of 10+ years ago when OCing had tons of headroom and keeping your CPU cool had a massive impact on how high you could push the clocks. Modern silicon just doesn't work the same way for whatever reason, CPUs seem far less heat sensitive. It's like, running a ryzen at 60-70C might lose a 100mhz of boost which is pretty trivial when you step back. However, there's no such thing as over-provisioned when it comes to acoustics. You can always turn fans down. Show me a cooler that can passively cool a CPU at 60C and one that can do 50C, and I'll call the second one over-provisioned.
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2020 19:17
|
|
|
My case has weird airflow and I'm planning to upgrade the exhaust fan in the back and add a 140mm directly above it blowing out as I suspect it has been pulling in air from that top corner and letting heat build up in the center of the case. The 120mm exhaust I'm replacing is probably fine, but I think it is the noisiest fan in the case. Might be overprovisioning, but Edit: Noisiest aside from the Wraith Spire, maybe. CaptainSarcastic fucked around with this message at 20:18 on Oct 5, 2020 |
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2020 20:14
|
|
|
CaptainSarcastic posted:Edit: Noisiest aside from the Wraith Spire, maybe. I would buy a real heatsink before spending money on extra case fans, that'll do so much more for CPU temps & noise. Even a real cheap 120mm tower cooler. The wraith max might be ok, but the spire and stealth are OEM sinks without heatpipes and 100% rely on RPM to do their job.
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2020 20:54
|
|
|
Straight blowdown coolers like Wraiths just more or less dump heat into your case. Even a cheap tower HSF will direct that air toward the back exhaust fan for pickup and expulsion.
|
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2020 01:46
|
|
|
Paul MaudDib posted:A Scythe Mugen rev B for $50 would be a significantly better cooler than even the max Khorne fucked around with this message at 04:34 on Oct 6, 2020 |
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2020 04:16
|
|
|
gradenko_2000 posted:on the same board, like they did with previous transitions DDR5 will be a new socket style, there's no way the
|
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2020 12:55
|
|
|
Please switch to LGA, AMD
|
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2020 14:49
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 8, 2024 10:31 |
|
|
I mean, they already are on LGA for Threadripper and up.
|
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2020 14:52
|
|
