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Bust Rodd posted:I’m confused here, you think the show thinks Nazis are cool because one of the (bad guy) characters on the show is an ancient Nazi who spreads propaganda? I think he's just trying to say that part of Nazism and Fascism is the cult of mythology that surrounds it and he feels like the show runners have fallen for it in some way because they aren't portrayed as ruthless brutes or lazy opportunists. Some people argue that the descriptions of the Nazis as extremely efficient and organized are romanticisms of the time or the regime, and while this is generally correct, to completely paint them as being just brutes installed by the rich is a simplification of how fascism and Nazism have been able to gain footholds within a range of societies. You may occasionally see the idea thrown around that Nazis were bankrolled by affluential businessman; I think Thyssen is one name that is thrown around. While there was a lot of co-operation once they came to power, while they were still on the rise most kept them at arm’s length because of their concern about the socialist aspect of National Socialism. There is a range of different takes on how fascist ideologies can take root within society and that is one of them. I do not really agree with him completely on either of those points historically though, again I do not think this is the thread to get into. If I wanted to write paragraphs upon paragraphs about the subject, I would have committed to doing my thesis.  Edit: The two posters before me explained it in a good way as well. Was not meant to snipe the page. 
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Oct 6, 2020 14:01
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Thank you to the posters above me, good responses!! However, my thoughts are that the Nazis literally haven’t been defeated. They were imported and integrated into the US government and have propagated throughout every branch of the govt, military, and intelligence. Whether or not you’re a huge Nazi/WW2 historian, surely you can concede that on some level the Nazis actually won because their pervasive ideology is taking root in modern US policy today? We’ve got a government that is literally enacting a pogrom on Latinos at the border and COVID-19 and our lack of response is basically a giant, national Tuskegee experiment. Our hyper militarized police force is so bloated with white supremacy that legislators voting against police budgets are getting black bagged in real time, on camera, and dragged into unmarked vans. Like what country do you live in where the Nazis... aren’t winning right now?
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Oct 6, 2020 14:06
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I'm sorry but History Channel only shows cool stuff like badass flying tanks and giant underground rocket factories What I am saying is maybe V was made by aliens, there's no proof that Vought isn't an alien
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Oct 6, 2020 14:06
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PostNouveau posted:Ryan's Lego movies even show how sheltered he is. He's not recreating action movies or anything a 12-year-old kid might like, it's "The Blind Side" and "Terms of Endearment". And Dances with Wolves. It's all savior BS cause Becca is raising him to be a literal EDIT: this sounded maybe a bit too mean. Becca was dealt an impossible hand and she is doing her best - and Ryan seems to be well adjusted enough for now. But it's clear that his Truman Show's (plus no friends!) upbringing is going to lead to disaster, either because of his reaction to the lie, or simply because of the consequences of this "social experiment" on his future relations. That Italian Guy fucked around with this message at 14:26 on Oct 6, 2020 |
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Oct 6, 2020 14:13
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Yudo posted:This show serves as a better commentary on contemporary capitalism and imperialism than anything else. The Nazi thing falls flat: the Nazi's were not super anything and they got their asses handed to them by untermensch. I fear that the name "Stormfront" betrays that the writers have fallen for Nazi mythology, but whatever it's a tv show. Supes are the atomic bomb, Dr. Vought is Werner Von Braun, some of the chronology is changed. Vought basically won america the war with weaponized eugenics, the nazis weren't cool, they got their asses handed to them, but they found a new lease for life within capitalism and american imperialism. Stormfront is shown as having adopted the affectations of 'young internet people' but she is explicitly an 80 year demon, and the one time she is shown to seemingly take off her mask she speaks with a broken voice and whines about a past long lost. I think the show really goes out of its way to show that everything 'cool' about stormfront is actually pathetic, at least that's how it felt to me.
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Oct 6, 2020 14:19
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Bust Rodd posted:Like what country do you live in where the Nazis... aren’t winning right now? I live in New Zealand, so I am rather lucky in that regard. Generally, in times of economic or social distress these kinds of ideologies can become more entrenched within society. I think the show does a rather good job of showing the veneer that these types of ideologies hide behind while also showing how much contradiction lies below the surface. Edit: Regarding Becca I just think she is doing the best she can with what she has and what she knows. There is a whole lot of discussions about white saviours and the like within the thread but realistically that is not something considered by a lot of people. I think she just generally sees the positives aspects of those movies and is trying to raise a sensitive and caring child who would consider his actions; the comparison to Superman is apt. Potentially Vought restricted the movies she could show him I doubt they'll delve into that though. I don't think the surprising thing about the movies he watched was meant to be the white saviour aspect, more the fact that they weren't typical movies a child would enjoy or seek out themselves; especially in this time period. HppyCmpr fucked around with this message at 14:50 on Oct 6, 2020 |
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Oct 6, 2020 14:27
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The darkest part of the E7 cold open is that the writers went to pains to illustrate that he loved his mother. These xenophobic psychos really think they are protecting their loved ones.
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Oct 6, 2020 14:35
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Yeah it was well done. I think it was more meant to reflect the climate of fear they live within, nearly every waking moment of his day he is constantly exposed to the same narrative and prompted in different forms to act. They even hold on the after effects of the shooting to show you that he is not an emotionless hate robot, as soon as the shopkeeper collapses he's taken back and shocked; part of him expected the bullet to bounce off. That is not to say that everyone that commits those types of actions isn't a monster, just there's a lot of factors at play. It is generally why education, critical thinking, identification of source bias, and exposure to other cultures are proffered of ways of combating xenophobic rhetoric. It can be difficult to fall for hateful views when you are able to step back and analyse it without buying into the fear they peddle. Edit: I have had friends that have fallen down the white supremacy and conspiracy theory rabbit hole due to factors like isolation or social awkwardness and dragging them back out of it was a long and difficult process. Most of them started down the path because of underlying concerns or inequalities they felt; whether real or imagined. It is very difficult for them to hold to those beliefs once you make them see behind the curtain though. HppyCmpr fucked around with this message at 14:48 on Oct 6, 2020 |
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Oct 6, 2020 14:44
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Bust Rodd posted:The darkest part of the E7 cold open is that the writers went to pains to illustrate that he loved his mother. These xenophobic psychos really think they are protecting their loved ones. I think that's what I struggled with the most with the opening. There's a kind of viewer who's going to walk away feeling sorry for Neal. He's the kind of guy who doesn't get the girl, he's the kind of guy who dreams big, who sacrifices for his family, who makes one honest mistake. Blah blah blah, the whole shebang. Realistically, a lot of these guys do think these things, but they also just kind of want to kill people. To them it's a heroic fantasy against a demonic villain (or, you know, one that's easily demonisable), and it allows them to exercise their feelings of powerlessness. But it's also the kind of power fantasy the show is inextricably linked to, and that doesn't rest easily with me. HppyCmpr posted:Edit: I have had friends that have fallen down the white supremacy and conspiracy theory rabbit hole due to factors like isolation or social awkwardness and dragging them back out of it was a long and difficult process. Most of them started down the path because of underlying concerns or inequalities they felt; whether real or imagined. It is very difficult for them to hold to those beliefs once you make them see behind the curtain though. I'd genuinely appreciate advice with this. I've got one or two friends I worry about sometimes.
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Oct 6, 2020 14:52
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Open Source Idiom posted:
This is just 1 example from my life, but a couple months ago I was having dinner with a friend and we were talking about COVID UBI and how he felt like “certain people” are just inherently lazy and predisposed to crimes. I saw the writing on the walls and just paused the conversation and just said “So, Jesse, you really think black men are walking around just constantly thinking “drat I cannot WAIT to RAPE somebody!” and in that moment he was confronted with his own insane racist attitude. He literally blinked and said “yeah I mean when you put it like that it doesn’t really make any sense”. He’s a good friend and a loving husband and father so I put up with his trash politics, but that moment showed me he is totally capable of reflection and change. If the friend is worth it, it’s worth just trying to hold up a mirror to their worst and most extreme attitudes and work backwards.
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Oct 6, 2020 15:27
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Open Source Idiom posted:I'd genuinely appreciate advice with this. I've got one or two friends I worry about sometimes. It can be an extremely long and drawn out process. You sort of have to accept that you're not going to change them overnight and it's helpful to remember that challenging them in a way that makes them feel stupid or isolated will just drive them further away from where you would like them to be. One of the most effective ways I found was to ask questions about why they feel the way they do or where they have acquired the knowledge from. Generally, what you are trying to do is make them aware of the contradictions within the ideology and make an effort to present your view to them in an understandable way that relates to their personal values. Anecdotally one of my friends was extremely smart and hardworking but really struggled conversing with people. One particular issue he encountered was that he was a science major and due to this he liked to discuss different papers and theories he found. Most people obviously were not interested in this and would brush him off. Some of the papers he wanted to discuss related to human biology and how different living conditions played a role in developing different races in different ways; pale skin vs dark skin/cranium size stuff like that. He was never the best at expressing his thoughts and when he had tried to bring these up with people, they would jump to conclusions about his views on race; it was a particularly hot topic at the time. This led to some negative experiences for him where he was called names and grouped in with hardcore racists or labelled a Nazi without people really trying to engage with what he was saying. Eventually due to this isolation and resentment he did start to drift down that path and that was because he wrapped himself in the online world. The people he interacted with online greeted him and told him he was treated unfairly and that "liberals are just using cancel culture" etc. He was never great at identifying bias within a source and that combined with the isolation and resentment he felt whether justified or not, enabled him to be lead down that path. There were also aspects of his family life that made him a more viable candidate, but I have rambled enough. I countered this by always being willing to talk to him about these interests without any judgement, unless he tried to make judgements about an individual based on these theories. Generally I would discuss whether it was fair to generalise and person based on their ethnicity and asked him to consider how he would feel if someone did that to him, drawing parallels to how he felt when he was labelled because he was unable to properly express his interests/thoughts. I did not try to steamroll him and would concede points to him when he was right. One of the things that I think really helped was my willingness to admit that there are idiots on both sides of the political isle and when people are quick to label whether it's fascist, Nazi, communist, or socialist they only dehumanize one another and encourage the Us vs Them tribalism that is rampant in most aspects of society currently. Depending on how far they have gone you may be the only bridge they still have left to "normal" aspects of society. I am not sure how much advice I can give as it is a tight rope to walk and I have had just as many successes as I have had failures. I am sure there are resources online you could consult, I know there are therapists who specialise in it; a friend of mine does this work in prison with gang members and we have discussed this at length. Apologies for the derail thread. Edit: This is partially off topic but I find this comic and really useful way to show people how sometimes they can lose sight of the world around them: https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/the-wireless/373065/the-pencilsword-on-a-plate Edit 2: Bust Rodd posted:This is just 1 example from my life... This can be another way to approach it where you reframe their views in a more clear fashion, you really need to consider the person and their values as well as how far down the hole they are. Some people just need a verbal slap to the face while others may be like a horse being led to water; they need to drink on their own but you'll get them as close as you can to enable it. Sometimes you have to be short with them though. One of the ones I've always enjoyed is "If white people are so superior why are they concerned about other races" that one normally makes them stutter and think for a bit. HppyCmpr fucked around with this message at 15:39 on Oct 6, 2020 |
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Oct 6, 2020 15:31
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I really don't want Becca to get fridged but I have a niggling feeling that it's going to happen in the last episode. Who's blood does everyone think is on Homelanders face in the promo? Post massacre or something more personal? Personally I love Aya but gently caress I want to watch a Nazi explode BurritoJustice fucked around with this message at 17:01 on Oct 6, 2020 |
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Oct 6, 2020 16:57
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Open Source Idiom posted:I think that's what I struggled with the most with the opening. There's a kind of viewer who's going to walk away feeling sorry for Neal. He's the kind of guy who doesn't get the girl, he's the kind of guy who dreams big, who sacrifices for his family, who makes one honest mistake. Blah blah blah, the whole shebang. Yeah I think they went the wrong way with that character, he's a mentally ill loner stereotype (the loving his mother part is directly parallelled withthe 2019 Joker movie) which sort of lets the kind of person who fetishises superheros and xenophobic violence off the hook.
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Oct 6, 2020 17:09
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massive spider posted:Yeah I think they went the wrong way with that character, he's a mentally ill loner stereotype (the loving his mother part is directly parallelled withthe 2019 Joker movie) which sort of lets the kind of person who fetishises superheros and xenophobic violence off the hook. ...who do you think is watching this show? and... why do you think he was mentally ill?
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Oct 6, 2020 17:30
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I made the horrible mistake of watching a "top 10 easter eggs in the last episode of the boys" video. It was trash, by the way, don't watch the full thing. But one part is bugging me and I don't know if it's me or that the people who made the video are idiots: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRvPlBJOgPg&t=892s Black Noir being MM's brother because he has a nut allergy and MM has OCD. What? Is it just me or does that not parse at all? I mean, in the ten seconds immediately before the timestamp they look at Noir beating Starlight's head into the big Vought table and go, "When it falls, it makes an "L". Like Lenny!" I.e. Lenny Butcher who killed himself.
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Oct 6, 2020 17:38
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Also the joker did not love his mother lol
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Oct 6, 2020 17:41
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Megillah Gorilla posted:Black Noir being MM's brother because he has a nut allergy and MM has OCD. What? Is it just me or does that not parse at all? of course it doesn't, it's the lowest of clickbait trash bullshit for morons.
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Oct 6, 2020 18:21
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Megillah Gorilla posted:I made the horrible mistake of watching a "top 10 easter eggs in the last episode of the boys" video. It was trash, by the way, don't watch the full thing. That's so dumb it wasn't even in the comics, which is full of dumb poo poo.
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Oct 6, 2020 18:37
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BurritoJustice posted:I really don't want Becca to get fridged but I have a niggling feeling that it's going to happen in the last episode. Man, I hope not. This destroys Billy as a character completely - he'd be unmoored without Becca. I suppose there's a chance he could take Hugh on as a "little brother", but that seems... unsatisfying. BurritoJustice posted:Personally I love Aya but gently caress I want to watch a Nazi explode I kept on parsing this as "want to watch a Nazi episode" for some reason and thought you were an insane person. Exploding Nazis are good and well, tho. boo_radley fucked around with this message at 18:45 on Oct 6, 2020 |
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Oct 6, 2020 18:37
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Romes128 posted:That's so dumb it wasn't even in the comics, which is full of dumb poo poo. I read through the wiki for the comics last night and I really appreciate what they salvaged from that mess. I imagine the people who were tasked with making a Wanted movie faced a similar task and they just instead used nothing from it and did their own thing. This show seems to be taking what few good ideas there were in the comics and is trying to just do them well without the BS. Billy seems like POS I can't wait to die equally in both versions, but both in their own ways. I was really disappointed in the episode where he gets his rear end beaten in a bar, then the next scene his face is completely fine instead of bloated and swollen beyond recognition like you'd expect after such a breating. BurritoJustice posted:I really don't want Becca to get fridged but I have a niggling feeling that it's going to happen in the last episode. After reading the comics wiki summary, I kind of expect her to be killed by her son by accident. In the comics she dies from her son before he is even born, so while the show isn't beholden to the comics circumstances, I kind of suspect that's going to be a thing.
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Oct 6, 2020 18:55
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A flashback where some poor Jew being tested on manages to get some kick rear end powers and fucks up a bunch of nazis before getting gunned down or just wrecking the camp would be pretty welcome. Here's hoping a season 3 flashback episode with Jensen.
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Oct 6, 2020 18:56
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Khanstant posted:I read through the wiki for the comics last night and I really appreciate what they salvaged from that mess. I imagine the people who were tasked with making a Wanted movie faced a similar task and they just instead used nothing from it and did their own thing. This show seems to be taking what few good ideas there were in the comics and is trying to just do them well without the BS. Billy seems like POS I can't wait to die equally in both versions, but both in their own ways. I was really disappointed in the episode where he gets his rear end beaten in a bar, then the next scene his face is completely fine instead of bloated and swollen beyond recognition like you'd expect after such a breating. I like that show Bucther is actually getting some character development and isnt just going to be the cool badass rear end in a top hat forever. it was nice to see him genuinely care for Hughie in the last episode
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Oct 6, 2020 20:16
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Butcher having the same backstory as Homelander is a really awesome touch that seems 100% original to the show.
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Oct 6, 2020 20:23
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boo_radley posted:Man, I hope not. This destroys Billy as a character completely - he'd be unmoored without Becca. I suppose there's a chance he could take Hugh on as a "little brother", but that seems... unsatisfying. Does it/would it though? He presumed her dead for years, so thats just a return to his status quo. She's already made clear that his personal violent psychotic streak really has nothing to do with anyone else, it's who he is and the best anyone can do is remind him to try and keep a check on it. Frankly her dying, even horribly in front of him, I don't think changes much for Butcher. He lost her years ago, finding her again just solidified how he'll never get back the wife he had. I think it would clearly throw him into yet another murder spiral, but I don't really think it unmoors him, if anything it would force him to double down on what was already grounding his life "killing loving Homelander".
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Oct 6, 2020 20:24
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I liked the comic just fine but two seasons in, I think the show is better written in every conceivable way. I think a part of it is by the time the comic came out "what if superheroes but lovely people" was a well-worn genre, especially among Ennis' contemporaries, but it really hasn't been done on TV before at this level.
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Oct 6, 2020 20:27
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Bust Rodd posted:...who do you think is watching this show? and... why do you think he was mentally ill? Because the TV/radio told him he was needed and he executed an innocent.
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Oct 6, 2020 20:31
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Bust Rodd posted:Butcher having the same backstory as Homelander is a really awesome touch that seems 100% original to the show. So agree. Loved how Starlight says this and Hughie goes "oh gently caress!" That Italian Guy posted:And Dances with Wolves. It's all savior BS cause Becca is raising him to be a literal ANOTHER SCORCHER posted:This is exactly it, plus she’s intentionally trying to make Homelander Jr. nice in the way an upper-class white lady imagines that to be. That was my exact take. I really feel for her as she was just a regular white lady from the Burbs before being tossed into the middle of the worst Super drama imaginable. She knows if she fucks it up then another monster goes into the world raping, killing and do whatever he pleases. She wants to be the Martha Kent and create a good Clark Kent. You can read it all throughout her narrative. I'm glad they flesh out her character as much as they do to avoid any Skyler backlash; although Skyler backlash was mostly dudes being creepy and weird. BurritoJustice posted:I really don't want Becca to get fridged but I have a niggling feeling that it's going to happen in the last episode. Also I love Aya too but will love seeing a smug Nazi troll go kaboom. Homelander too honestly, at the end of the series, although that guy never had a chance. The kid stories of Homelander by Vogelbaum just backed up what we already knew. Still.... like seeing a rabid dog that is too far gone for treatment and just can't help himself but to bite and snarl. You know they are bad and you don't want them around others... but a very human part of you feels bad for that inner good boy lost to sickness and pain. DogsInSpace! fucked around with this message at 20:54 on Oct 6, 2020 |
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Oct 6, 2020 20:44
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HppyCmpr posted:I think he's just trying to say that part of Nazism and Fascism is the cult of mythology that surrounds it and he feels like the show runners have fallen for it in some way because they aren't portrayed as ruthless brutes or lazy opportunists. To clarify, my point was not that the show ought to portray Stormfront et al. in any specific way, but rather (in response to a poster) that the National Socialists and fascists in general were/are nothing special and what is articulated as fascist "ideology" is really liberal historians attempting to rationalize a dictatorial system of rank opportunism and plunder. Perhaps too the herculean efforts to portray fascism as coherent and thus distinguishable from our system of governance betrays just how hard a task it is, but I digress. I did not mean to suggest that fascist regimes were simply a gaggle of brutes installed by the rich; rather, that the only meaningful definition of fascism is it being the reaction of capital to revolutionary circumstances--the "not communism" exit plan of liberal democracies in terminal decline. That the Nazi elites were largely various degrees of avaricious, brutish, drug addled, lazy and incompetent--in exalted position by some mixture of ruthlessness and historical chance--is not particularly different than, say, the British or American ruling class. To end this derail, as many have noted in a more articulate manner than I, the show seems to accept Nazi mythology. I think this makes for an easy if somewhat uninteresting narrative, though that may be due to a lack of imagination on my part. It's just too on the nose. Yudo fucked around with this message at 23:02 on Oct 6, 2020 |
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Oct 6, 2020 22:59
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I agree, I think, and in my opinion one of the few really strong throughlines of the comic was that the real force behind all the monstrosity and carnage was just corporate incompetence, greediness, and selfishness. Comics Stilwell was a great character, and for all the shortcomings of the final arc and the series in general, I loved his final scene, in which he finally confronts the futility and error of what he's built his life into-- "bad product." Nazis have an immense cultural gravity, and they succeeded in rooting their stupid tacky aesthetics and garish imagery into the popular consciousness as something bigger than it really was. Ennis' version of Vought, on the other hand, is never anything more than venality and corner-cutting. Every attempt it makes to dress itself or its products up in anything more is almost instantly deflated. It felt very honest and as crummy as I think the series is in many many ways I admire that element of it.
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Oct 6, 2020 23:56
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BurritoJustice posted:Personally I love Aya but gently caress I want to watch a Nazi explode The show did a great job of making Stormfront instantly likeable because of the “telling it like it is” attitude, before pulling the rug out from under you, and its helped by the fact that Aya is charismatic. I know that was deliberate, and whilst I know SF has to die I will miss Aya in the show. Durzel fucked around with this message at 00:17 on Oct 7, 2020 |
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Oct 7, 2020 00:15
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Randomly decided to throw this show on last Friday because I was extremely bored with absolutely everything... And now I just finished S2E7 about an hour ago. This show is good and I need to know who The Head Popper is  Like I can't stop thinking about it
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Oct 7, 2020 00:16
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How Wonderful! posted:I agree, I think, and in my opinion one of the few really strong throughlines of the comic was that the real force behind all the monstrosity and carnage was just corporate incompetence, greediness, and selfishness. Comics Stilwell was a great character, and for all the shortcomings of the final arc and the series in general, I loved his final scene, in which he finally confronts the futility and error of what he's built his life into-- "bad product." I still think Homelander's line to Stillwell - "I think I've finally met a superhuman" - is one of the best in the comic. Knowing that CEOs do score highly on psychopathy scores in real life, because the only way to get to their position is to not give a poo poo about the feelings and experiences of others, really helps it hit home. As does his ending. Superheroes, even with nearly God-like power, really do have no practical use. They don't make better cops or better soldiers. There's nobody he can sell them to.
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Oct 7, 2020 00:25
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I have a gut feeling Stormfront is gonna survive this season and I hope I’m wrong
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Oct 7, 2020 00:32
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sponges posted:I have a gut feeling Stormfront is gonna survive this season and I hope I’m wrong My guess is she's playing Homelander like a fiddle and will be The New Baddie 
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Oct 7, 2020 00:38
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Sab669 posted:My guess is she's playing Homelander like a fiddle and will be The New Baddie Yeah I mean I just don't buy that this absolute lich of a woman is somehow completely swooning over Homie. Her character is too smart and has playing this game for too long.
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Oct 7, 2020 00:49
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Bust Rodd posted:Yeah I mean I just don't buy that this absolute lich of a woman is somehow completely swooning over Homie. Her character is too smart and has playing this game for too long. I don’t know in a series that is defined by its sad lonely people, for the nazi to be a sad lonely person would be very on brand.
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Oct 7, 2020 00:53
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I hope she makes it only because I hate when the big bad is defeated as the b plot of the last episode with absolutely no discussion ahead of time These guys haven't exactly shown themselves to be tactical geniuses up to this point to just slap together a "killing off a super with an unknown weakness that has already kicked the poo poo out of our pet super" plan
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Oct 7, 2020 00:54
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Azhais posted:These guys haven't exactly shown themselves to be tactical geniuses up to this point to just slap together a "killing off a super with an unknown weakness that has already kicked the poo poo out of our pet super" plan I'm calling it that Stormfront dies to either Homelander or Ryan.
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Oct 7, 2020 00:56
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Stormfront will die when she finally pisses Homelander off and he casually lasers her in half
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Oct 7, 2020 01:03
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Oh, right, the kid. Yea I could see him figuring out, "Hey wait she's manipulating my dad" - who he is apparently now fond of - and giving her the ol' Zip-Zap e; No way, she's laser proof how could I forget that lmao Sab669 fucked around with this message at 01:55 on Oct 7, 2020 |
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Oct 7, 2020 01:08
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