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Vince MechMahon posted:It's long past due for that character to go away for a while and not come back till someone has a new idea.
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Oct 7, 2020 02:23
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BrianWilly posted:What if...there's more than one Joker? I said a new idea, not a fan theory that everyone thinks they thought up when they were twelve. E: I would also accept a new take on an old idea. Meaning if they want to have Joker be a wacky criminal who robs the oversized novelty instrument museum again, I'm okay with that.
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Oct 7, 2020 02:27
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Vince MechMahon posted:If Norman caused mass murder on the level of Joker, I bet Pete would pull the trigger if he had to. And if he didn't someone else almost certainly would. It's ridiculous in a world where people who are okay with sometimes killing, like Wonder woman, that the joker is allowed to live in this state. It's long past due for that character to go away for a while and not come back till someone has a new idea. I mean, Batman #100 ends with Joker faking a death and saying he's going on a long vacation, so hopefully that means he'll be out of the spotlight for a good long while. I'm also calling it now: When the Joker DOES return, he's going to kill Clownhunter off.
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Oct 7, 2020 02:28
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Vandar posted:I mean, Batman #100 ends with Joker faking a death and saying he's going on a long vacation, so hopefully that means he'll be out of the spotlight for a good long while. Same but Punchline.
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Oct 7, 2020 02:56
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Xelkelvos posted:Same but Punchline. Punchline is so friggin' lame.
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Oct 7, 2020 03:14
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radlum posted:Is the Joker the only villain that gets that is used to tirelessly drill the point that the hero should kill? I think the main difference is that the average Spider-Man villain is just a guy who wants to rob a bank, and the average Batman villain is a mass murderer with no other motivation except to make Batman do/not do something. To be fair to Batman about half the villains Batman faces are the Joker because he can't not constantly be in a book. The best look at this kind of character is the current Daredevil run by Zdarsky. It is a better Batman doesn't kill book than Batman has ever been.
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Oct 7, 2020 03:36
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Lord_Hambrose posted:
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Oct 7, 2020 03:41
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Vandar posted:Punchline is so friggin' lame. I get that DC was trying to give Joker a new girlfriend and I kind of like the design of the character, but Punchline is the Poochiest character I've seen in a while.
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Oct 7, 2020 03:47
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I hadn't actually seen punchline and just looked her up and I'm not sure what I was expecting but "aggressively bland" wasn't it. Jokers daughter sucked but at least there was an idea in the design.
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Oct 7, 2020 04:08
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Vince MechMahon posted:I hadn't actually seen punchline and just looked her up and I'm not sure what I was expecting but "aggressively bland" wasn't it. Jokers daughter sucked but at least there was an idea in the design. They took her to interesting places even after her introduction and gave her a distinct motivation outside of the Joker. Punchline seems like someone who watched the Joker movie too many times
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Oct 7, 2020 04:13
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Vince MechMahon posted:I hadn't actually seen punchline and just looked her up and I'm not sure what I was expecting but "aggressively bland" wasn't it. Jokers daughter sucked but at least there was an idea in the design. Haha, gently caress I had managed to forget about her. Remember when the Joker's Daughter lenticular cover Villain Month comic was going for like, $50 on eBay because scalpers were sure she was going to be the breakout character?
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Oct 7, 2020 04:13
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Xelkelvos posted:Punchline seems like someone who watched the Joker movie too many times That's basically her backstory. She's a college girl that watches a bunch of Joker stuff on Youtube, decides that WE LIVE IN A SOCIETY, and makes it her goal to be his new partner.
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Oct 7, 2020 04:17
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I know this won't happen, but I feel like the next big Joker story should not have him kill even one person. He can be much more interesting when he's playing mind-games with people, or pitting them against each other. The killer clown shtick gets old fast, and more importantly its not funny. They should also give a rest to the Joker-zombie thing they always do. I liked in Mask of The Phantasm how his gas just made people laugh to the point of physical pain.
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Oct 7, 2020 04:26
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radlum posted:Is the Joker the only villain that gets that is used to tirelessly drill the point that the hero should kill? Bendis had Maria Hill make a “When is it Spider-Man’s fault that Norman Osborn is still killing people?” argument in New Avengers in the lead up towards Civil War.
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Oct 7, 2020 04:29
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Just made me realise that none of Batman's villains outside of Catwoman. Is interested in actual robbery anymore. Now it's all about who can get the highest body count instead of trying to rob a bank and leave dumb stupid clues about it.
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Oct 7, 2020 05:01
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Kite Man Hell yeah.
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Oct 7, 2020 05:11
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Small as it is, "Batman chooses not to save the Joker's life" was a progression in their ancient dynamic and I liked the issue generally. I think if all the stuff in this event about rebuilding Gotham and moving towards a better future goes somewhere in the run's next few arcs, it'll look pretty good in hindsight.
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Oct 7, 2020 05:55
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I kind of like Punchline, not profoundly but I enjoy how she IS pretty direct reference to all the people who think the Joker "has a point." Harley said it herself in the story arc, she thought the Joker had a heart whereas Punchline thinks he has a brain, and they're both wrong. I guess what I'm saying is, I like her better than Flashpoint Thomas Wayne
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Oct 7, 2020 06:10
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Skwirl posted:Doc Ock after the end of Superior Spider-Man maybe? Slott had already probably plotted out his comeback via Spider-Verse at that point, it barely counts.
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Oct 7, 2020 06:39
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OnimaruXLR posted:I kind of like Punchline, not profoundly but I enjoy how she IS pretty direct reference to all the people who think the Joker "has a point." Harley said it herself in the story arc, she thought the Joker had a heart whereas Punchline thinks he has a brain, and they're both wrong. Yeah, I thought this was a good use of her character. The previews made it look like she was edgier, more x-treme Harley, but she's actually a different vibe and her existence is an interesting commentary on the Joker's essentially vacuous nature. She thinks he's some great satirist exposing the flaws of a cruel society, when actually he's just a sadistic bully. It reads like a refutation of "that kind of fan" but not in an overly metatextual way.
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Oct 7, 2020 07:15
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TwoPair posted:Actually, the thought occurs, for as much as superhero comics are known for having a revolving door of death, when is the last time a major villain bit the dust? And I mean big, not like when a C-lister gets offed in an event or gets killed by an A-list villain like a Joker to show how eeevilll they are. Outside of baddies created for stuff like big crises and events, I am having a hard time. Thor just recently killed Galactus but it was in a stupid book and I doubt it will stick for very long. Thanos has also, I think, been dead for about two years although again, I'm sure he'll be back around soon enough. Edit: lmao nope, I just checked and since 2018 Thanos has already come back to life and died again
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Oct 7, 2020 08:16
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Anyone know why DCEASED Dead Planet #3 and 4 aren't making their way to the UK? I asked my LCS and they just kind of shrugged. Pretty annoying as it looks like I'm going to have to spend extra to get copies sent to me from the US via eBay.
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Oct 7, 2020 08:52
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Open Marriage Night posted:Bendis had Maria Hill make a “When is it Spider-Man’s fault that Norman Osborn is still killing people?” argument in New Avengers in the lead up towards Civil War. But the thing is, apart from the very odd appearance in comic, nobody takes the idea seriously. Like at all. There aren’t years worth of stories of people asking Peter Parker to finally end Carnage or the Green Goblin for good. Like Brainiac has almost certainly killed more people than the Joker ever could, and people are fine with Superman kicking him back into space. Even online, a good chunk of the Internet is devouted to “Batman is the real villain because he doesn’t kill X person. And he hasn’t fixed his hellhole city with his superpower of money.” Meanwhile the same questions never get asked about any other super hero.
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Oct 7, 2020 09:13
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I think a big part of it is how Batman's no-killing policy has been depicted as inflexible psychosis over the years instead of a moral stance. In attempt to give him [MAXIMUM PATHOS] they like to make him act like any kind of killing is on par with killing his parents (unless it's a gorilla). It's the same as his thing with guns. People keep trotting out the premise that Batman is every bit as delusional as the villains he fights. King's run was screaming that message on every page. It also has the side effect of making him seem like a sadist who will torture people but never quite go as far as to actual kill them. What it really all boils down to is people wanting to make Batman stories as edgy as possible in spite of the fact that he is a billionaire ninja ace detective wearing an animal-themed costume who is BFFs with the commissioner of police and Superman.
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Oct 7, 2020 09:42
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People just need to accept that Batman doesn't kill because you can't do four Joker stories a year if Joker is killed off in the first one. At the end of the day Batman is such an outlier in the DC universe because he is just some guy. I hope the people who want "more realism" in the DCU want a panel in every issue of Batman where Superman chuckles a little and says to the camera "I choose to let Gotham suffer, as it amuses me" Batman really works as a character because he can do so many different types of stories and genres well. I really feel that comics as a whole should go back to not killing people meaninglessly. Marvel is a much bigger offender than DC for this but deaths in comic books are just lazy thrills that don't actually get any response anymore. Alfred's death is one of the most important things to happen to Batman in years and I don't know anyone who doesn't expect him to come back fairly soon. A few years, perhaps. You can only kill a character if they can't sell a book.
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Oct 7, 2020 12:52
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I feel like, yeah, the only way to kill the Joker in mainline continuity is to set up his big ticket return a month to a year later. But even in doing that, they also kill the story element of, "people are mad at Batman because he won't kill the Joker", which has in itself become a source of drama. Like, if Joker dies and then goes to Hell and comes back as Devil Instinct Joker, you can no longer have plots where people tell Batman he should kill the Joker and Batman wrestles with this conflict.
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Oct 7, 2020 14:01
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Batman should kill Joker and then Joker comes back from hell with powers like in that Superman crossover and then everyone is super pissed at Batman FOR killing Joker.
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Oct 7, 2020 14:19
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Lord_Hambrose posted:People just need to accept that Batman doesn't kill because you can't do four Joker stories a year if Joker is killed off in the first one. At the end of the day Batman is such an outlier in the DC universe because he is just some guy. I hope the people who want "more realism" in the DCU want a panel in every issue of Batman where Superman chuckles a little and says to the camera "I choose to let Gotham suffer, as it amuses me" I think it would help a great deal if there would be a gap where just for a year or so, Batman just stopped some loving crimes or his villains just robbed some banks or tried to take over the city or any kind of basic poo poo. But now King and Tynion have both done back-to-back stories about villains completely overtaking the city and making it a hellscape for no other reason than to gently caress with Batman. Like, we the readers know that Gotham City is a mess that no one would want to live in. But normally you can do some mental gymnastics and make a case for why people in-universe would stay. But now there's really no case to be made. Tynion (and King) have both made Gotham City a loving nightmare. Or you know, maybe just let Batman actually save the day for a loving change. Both Joker War and City of Bane end with Batman basically counting "well the city isn't a loving crater I guess" as a win while we pretend the mountains of dead or the insane collateral damage just get cleaned up by whatever Gotham's version of Damage Control is. It would be a legitimate fun surprise these days if a Batman story ended in a single digit death count.
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Oct 7, 2020 14:19
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We could also address the actual issue of why or how 100% non-superpowered baseline human Joker never stays imprisoned in Arkham after Batman 100% does his job and puts him away, which would absolutely be 100 times more of a pressing issue to the average Gotham citizen than guilting the one single guy in the whole process who is, again, actually doing his job to the tee...but um we live in...a society?...or something
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Oct 7, 2020 15:09
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the problem is that every Batman villain is now a serial killer instead of a burglar and Batman can only stop them once they've established a pattern so he can be like "of course, the bodies are forming a statement, in cursive, if we simply plot a line along them on a map, it reveals a full street address, including zip code" so they all kill like eighty meaningless people before the story even starts, but unlike a Brainiac, they have to be "realistic," so the ultimately meaningless deaths are all depicted as people with families and not a planet of asparagus guys. Making Batman solve crimes that aren't elaborate real estate grabs or thefts of the largest ruby in Jakarta was the big mistake
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Oct 7, 2020 15:17
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Rhyno posted:Batman should kill Joker and then Joker comes back from hell with powers like in that Superman crossover and then everyone is super pissed at Batman FOR killing Joker. Not this exactly but something similar might be fun to enjoy in a limited series. What if Batman did kill the joker? 12 issues showing both the DCU reacting to it, and joker on the other side. Although I'd end it with joker coming back, but somehow changed. I don't know how exactly, but radical enough that you could keep him that way for at least a few years to give the classic version of the character a rest.
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Oct 7, 2020 15:24
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Vince MechMahon posted:Not this exactly but something similar might be fun to enjoy in a limited series. What if Batman did kill the joker? 12 issues showing both the DCU reacting to it, and joker on the other side. Although I'd end it with joker coming back, but somehow changed. I don't know how exactly, but radical enough that you could keep him that way for at least a few years to give the classic version of the character a rest. Now that I think about it I'm pretty sure this was a subplot in The Nail.
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Oct 7, 2020 16:07
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Also it would be one thing if Joker did his big 18 steps ahead 100s dead thing maybe once every 5 years or so (so you know, we don't actually see the Joker for 5 years) instead of every third story arc. At least that way the threat would feel more dangerous instead of it being another Monday morning. Same with Gotham being reduced to a No Man's Land status every year (as a goon above said City of Bane followed by Joker War). Here is a challenge for any Batman writer, make a Batman vs Joker story that is 2 issues long. Won't be forced to make a big epic, won't be forced to show over multiple issues how Joker is winning every step of the way, won't be forced to show gruesome crime scenes over multiple pages.
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Oct 7, 2020 16:10
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The Question IRL posted:But the thing is, apart from the very odd appearance in comic, nobody takes the idea seriously. The rich guy thing, I think, gets more focus on Batman than others because three big basic components of the story are (1) Batman is absurdly rich (2) Gothham is a shithole and (3) Batman solves problems with vigilante detective skills, and nowadays people are getting more and more cognizant that the first thing should solve the second much, much, much harder than (3), which at best seems to be actively counterproductive because street crime isn't solved by punching people and all Batman's supervillains now seem to be written as operating solely to spite Batman.
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Oct 7, 2020 16:24
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Someone should kill the Joker and they should put a moratorium on writing him until someone comes up with an amazing idea. So maybe in 20 years someone could write the Joker again at the rate good Joker stories come around, but until that point gently caress it. He's dead.
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Oct 7, 2020 16:28
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I would definitely like to see a de-emphasis on the Joker as scary murder man who does insanely twisted chemical attacks in favour of making him do some actual "joke" crimes where the punchline isn't people gruesomely dying. I mean, he can go back to the murder later, but like, at least one run of crimes where he's just doing preposterous stuff would be a nice change.
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Oct 7, 2020 16:38
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Rhyno posted:Now that I think about it I'm pretty sure this was a subplot in The Nail. it was, Batman killed the Joker after Joker made Batman watch as he murdered Batgirl and Robin using what turned out to be kryptonian weapons as part of a plot to make superheroes look bad,, but it was Alan Davis on words and pictures so it was good instead of super tacky.
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Oct 7, 2020 17:02
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BrianWilly posted:We could also address the actual issue of why or how 100% non-superpowered baseline human Joker never stays imprisoned in Arkham after Batman 100% does his job and puts him away, which would absolutely be 100 times more of a pressing issue to the average Gotham citizen than guilting the one single guy in the whole process who is, again, actually doing his job to the tee...but um we live in...a society?...or something Joker: Killer Smile did a good job showing how Joker plays mind games with everyone near him. As with humanity's relation to Superman, it's up to us to maintain a better world. Uh, until the body counts get so high that there's no one left alive but metahumans.
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Oct 7, 2020 17:18
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I've said something similar before, but "why won't Batman kill" is only a coherent question if you decide to go out of your way to write stories about his villains being absolutely bloodthirsty and monomaniacal killing machines. Nobody gestured angrily at the TV during an Adam West episode and said "why doesn't Batman just put a bullet between Egghead's eyes," and I presume nobody watching the animated series felt like, oh, Killer Croc has finally crossed a line this time, he almost killed our hero with a rock. Similarly, it is very rare that Spider-Man faces this dilemma or has writers or fans contrive it for something simply because so many of his villains remain essentially robbers with powers. The Sin-Eater storyline with Jean DeWolff's death had him considering killing his enemy, and DeMatteis in the early 90s had him pushed to the edge by Vermin's weird pheromone powers, and actually the current ASM arc involves his allies wondering why he's preventing another villain from killing off Norman Osborn for him, but those stories are the exception to the rule. Batman writers, or many of them at least, feel so constrained by the tonal trappings of the character, the angst and gothic bravura, that they feel the need to have him in this existential bind for every single encounter, and thus every single villain has to be escalated past the point of absurdity into like, grotesque Grand Guignol caricatures. Nobody has any solid reason for why the Joker is always genocidally depraved these days other than that they need to set-up a "why won't Batman kill?" beat if only because they can't think of any other beats to hit. It's extremely boring. They'd write a better, less ghoulish Joker, I think, if they were good enough writers to imagine a better Batman, but they aren't, so they won't. It's easy to write a nine part epic where 100,000 people die and the Joker has, I don't know, a big bomb and Batman has to decide whether to blah blah blah or blah blah blah and then after agonizing over it he decides to blah.... but a Robin must pay the price. It's almost an automatic process. Any one of us could do it and probably do as well as, say, Tynion or King or Snyder. It's much harder to get a reader to come back month after month to see a guy foil a bank robbery or figure out how to stop, say, delicate peace talks from being derailed by a maliciously-placed whoopie cushion, which is why hacks keep taking the lazy option. Mass destruction is lazy, nonstop horror and bloodshed is lazy. As divisive as Morrison's Magneto was, I think he had a point, about comics story-telling if not about the character himself-- trying to blow up the world and kill a bunch of people is for idiots and children. Do something better. I think it's telling that the writers who have escaped this bind in the past decade or so, or at least the ones that stick out to me, are Grant Morrison and Peter Tomasi (not counting out of continuity stuff like the delightful Batman '66), both of whom had a clear interest and fondness for Bruce Wayne as a character. They had ideas about him that they wanted to articulate, so he came across as a human being instead of a Casio keyboard where every preset button is just labelled "trauma."
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Oct 7, 2020 17:40
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Android Blues posted:I would definitely like to see a de-emphasis on the Joker as scary murder man who does insanely twisted chemical attacks in favour of making him do some actual "joke" crimes where the punchline isn't people gruesomely dying. I mean, he can go back to the murder later, but like, at least one run of crimes where he's just doing preposterous stuff would be a nice change. The problem is that Batman as a character has been pushed to such extremes of super-competency and hyper-tactical paramilitary bullshit that “a clown who steals things” just doesn’t present an interesting foil for him anymore. Every villain has to be a super-intelligent amoral sociopath capable of killing thousands because Batman has been inflated to this ridiculous degree. BTAS seemed to get the balance just right but then Grant Morrison had to justify Batman being on-par with Green Lantern and everyone else ran with it.
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Oct 7, 2020 17:50
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