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You can still make the joker a genius tactician, just make the stakes lower. He's going to kill some dude at midnight and announced it on the radio first. That's all you need. It's literally all there in the first joker story. More laughing fish and Jokers five way revenge, please.
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Oct 7, 2020 17:54
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| # ? May 27, 2024 05:07 |
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I think at this point the Joker works much better as a Harley Quinn villain than as a Batman villain because the stakes are personal and intimate. He doesn't need to have a five-figure body-count because we immediately understand why she hates him and why we want him to lose. I was trying to think of the last time I read a decent Joker story and I was quite surprised that it was so recent-- Breaking Glass has a great, novel take on him, while the Harley Quinn cartoon makes him terrifying and compelling as an antagonist while still mostly having his schemes be about making a giant jack-in-the-box with his head on top (which he still uses to turn Gotham into a hellish wasteland, but hey).
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Oct 7, 2020 17:57
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Something along the lines of Joker's Favor* from the animated series would be amazing. He's just this weird chaotic force. Or even go back to how Morrison thought of him back when he was writing Aztek where the Joker doesn't actually know what kind of Joker he'll be when he wakes up every day. *Featuring one of Hamill's best line reads, "Look at the size of that cake, man!"
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Oct 7, 2020 18:02
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It feels like ages since Batman was a street level hero and maybe I am looking at the past with some rosey glasses but I kind of miss the Batman vs Mob/street gang stories. As How Wonderful said, it feels like the Batman power creep has infected his villains as well that we can't just get Batman fighting a gang recruiting youths or something like that, it has to be Batman fighting so and so who has wiped out an orphanage full of kids. Joker just feels overplayed by now and it feels like the other villains suffer because of it. One thing I will say for Snyder (and one thing that I will also take away from him) is that at least he decided to give Riddler some grand status (unfortunately this involved a high body count). Batman has some of the best villains in comic book history but it seems writers only remember 2 or 3 of these villains and decide to amp them up to superhuman levels.
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Oct 7, 2020 18:07
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I hated King's treatment of Riddler, where he was a brutal gang lord who would roll off an irrelevant riddle while shooting at people with guns. If Joker's been over-egged, at least the Riddler is usually still a reliable source of goofy criminal gambits, even in modern Batman.
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Oct 7, 2020 18:33
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Like, the prelude to Joker War features him turning Gotham into a giant crossword puzzle, that's good stuff.
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Oct 7, 2020 18:33
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Batman is somehow only super competent after the initial bus full of beloved grandmothers explodes in front of the day care center, though, and usually like ten to fifteen murders after that. At some point they decided that the only stakes for a Batman story were body counts and that's dumb, because you have to tell another story after this one and if you've already escalated to mass murder, where is there to go? It's how you end up with Riddler, Bane, and Joker all taking over an entire city within a couple years of each other. I'm convinced Professor Pyg was created as a critique of modern Batman villian writing, where he still had vestigial gimmick parts but was just doing gross body horror murder stuff, and everyone who used him since missed the point.
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Oct 7, 2020 18:46
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The best era of Batman is around the original KGBeast. Batman is a law and order obsessed maniac but he is actually dealing with criminals and random murderers.
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Oct 7, 2020 18:54
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Madkal posted:It feels like ages since Batman was a street level hero and maybe I am looking at the past with some rosey glasses but I kind of miss the Batman vs Mob/street gang stories. As How Wonderful said, it feels like the Batman power creep has infected his villains as well that we can't just get Batman fighting a gang recruiting youths or something like that, it has to be Batman fighting so and so who has wiped out an orphanage full of kids.
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Oct 7, 2020 18:56
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Madkal posted:Here is a challenge for any Batman writer, make a Batman vs Joker story that is 2 issues long. Won't be forced to make a big epic, won't be forced to show over multiple issues how Joker is winning every step of the way, won't be forced to show gruesome crime scenes over multiple pages. I actually think that shorter stories in general might help. When every story has to fill a 6-issue trade, it has to be at least somewhat important, but a one or two issue story? Not only should it help use more villains, but the stakes wouldn't have to be as large. Android Blues posted:I would definitely like to see a de-emphasis on the Joker as scary murder man who does insanely twisted chemical attacks in favour of making him do some actual "joke" crimes where the punchline isn't people gruesomely dying. I mean, he can go back to the murder later, but like, at least one run of crimes where he's just doing preposterous stuff would be a nice change. I do 100% believe that Joker should return to being a clown-themed gangster. I mean, he's still dangerous, he'll definitely kill people, but his goal is to knock over a bank with a tommy gun in one hand and a laughing fish in the other, and maybe the whole thing was a weird-rear end joke and the money's still there, safe and sound, not make some grand statement with a hundred person body count.
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Oct 7, 2020 21:15
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maybe it doesnt count because it wasnt technically spider-man but the first half of slotts superior deals a bunch with why or why doesnt spider-man kill when otto is just like gently caress it and kills some people at the beginning of the run
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Oct 7, 2020 21:29
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Android Blues posted:I hated King's treatment of Riddler, where he was a brutal gang lord who would roll off an irrelevant riddle while shooting at people with guns. If Joker's been over-egged, at least the Riddler is usually still a reliable source of goofy criminal gambits, even in modern Batman. They're planning on turning the Riddler into a Zodiac Killer-esque character for the new Batman movie so murderer Riddler may not be going away anytime soon. Joker, at least, works fine as someone who cryptically picks off people in seemingly random ways while leaving coded letters and clues that may not actually have a solution and he was like that under certain writers. It's just that people wanted to push the stakes up further and further and doing so de-grounds everyone, especially for characters who are nominally supposed to be street level. Morrison pushed Batman's capability way up, but he also focused on villains who'd actually test it like R'as and the League who also have the resources like Batman has. Sure, it leaves his classic rogues in the dust a little, but it gives room for other characters who aren't quite as hyper-competent to handle Batman's more classic Rogues without having to write them stepping up their game to match Batman. It's sorta the same issues with Flash and his Rogues where, after Johns, other writers started giving them powers or something to make them go toe-to-toe with The Flash when it's sorta not the point. They want to make the heist and get away. They're not looking for a fight if they don't have . Their tools aren't enough to kill the Flash, but it's enough to slow him down or distract him and get away. And that's fine. But writers like Snyder want face-offs and in order to meet the hyper-competent Batman, now the other villains are written such that they're compelled to up their game to face him because their schtick isn't what it used to be. About the only villains who've not followed the weird power level shifting are ones like Killer Croc who were largely busy in another book and partially rehabbed or Ivy who's just rehabbed, The Penguin where he's just an element of Gotham and not really a full antagonist, or the various other B and C list villains that only occasionally show up.
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Oct 7, 2020 21:47
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They tried that with Killer Croc during Hush, and Poison Ivy just became Queen Ivy, whatever that means.
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Oct 7, 2020 21:51
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I may have a lot of problems with what Batman has become since Morrison's JLA run but you can't deny how badass that scene with the matches and the Martians was.
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Oct 7, 2020 21:53
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Modern Penguin is so good. I really like him as a Kingpin-esque crime lord who hangs out at his fun thematic nightclub. Not that I would mind a few bird themed crimes now and again but not every villain needs to be our artisinaly doing each robbery personally.
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Oct 7, 2020 22:31
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Lord_Hambrose posted:Modern Penguin is so good. I really like him as a Kingpin-esque crime lord who hangs out at his fun thematic nightclub. Not that I would mind a few bird themed crimes now and again but not every villain needs to be our artisinaly doing each robbery personally. Penguin knows what power level he runs at and he's content to stay there. Owls, Bane, Joker, Hyper Joker, etc. be damned.
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Oct 7, 2020 23:13
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Kind of wish the Black and Whites alliance had remained a thing. It was a Gotham crime lord alliance between Great White Shark, Black Mask and Penguin. But it was pretty much just dropped, Don't know what GWS is up to, but Black Mask and Penguin have been doing other things.
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Oct 7, 2020 23:51
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Black Mask feels like a good source of crime boss shenanigans, now that he's been mentioned. Although he is busy... elsewhere.
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Oct 7, 2020 23:57
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They should just redo Joker War and replace the Joker with Scarface, scene for scene.
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Oct 8, 2020 00:16
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Has Batman ever had an internal debate whether to "kill" the Scarface doll or not? I kind of want to see that.
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Oct 8, 2020 01:38
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Lord_Hambrose posted:They should just redo Joker War and replace the Joker with Scarface, scene for scene. radlum posted:Has Batman ever had an internal debate whether to "kill" the Scarface doll or not? I kind of want to see that.  I love both of these. I feel confident scarface has been shot, but I don't think Batman would do that to poor what's his face.
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Oct 8, 2020 02:13
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Whatever happened to that tech/punk girl that help Batman a few times throughout Snyder's run?
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Oct 8, 2020 02:52
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Happy Noodle Boy posted:Whatever happened to that tech/punk girl that help Batman a few times throughout Snyder's run? Harper Row? She’s still out there but she’s such a Snyder character I don’t think anybody else wants to use her. I think she’s going to college or something normal.
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Oct 8, 2020 03:05
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Happy Noodle Boy posted:Whatever happened to that tech/punk girl that help Batman a few times throughout Snyder's run? Bluejay retired to Leslie Thompson's clinic
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Oct 8, 2020 03:16
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How Wonderful! posted:
You nailed it. There is no real reason Batman HAS to be like this. They just have to commit to breaking the mold and loosening it up. They probably won’t though because that idea of Batman is so ingrained in the public consciousness. Maybe if/when the uber grim Batman stops being as much of a draw they’ll get desperate and be willing to try other things.
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Oct 8, 2020 04:20
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nemesis_hub posted:They probably won’t though because that idea of Batman is so ingrained in the public consciousness. The Dark Knight is both a great movie and the worst thing to happen to comic Joker.
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Oct 8, 2020 06:27
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TwoPair posted:The Dark Knight is both a great movie and the worst thing to happen to comic Joker. Ehh, Killing Joke did way more damage, The Dark Knight was just following up on that.
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Oct 8, 2020 06:36
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Nah, the Dark Knight Joker is about escalation. He doesn't even have that high of a body count and certainly didn't kill hundreds of people before Batman stopped him. Plus in the end it shows Gotham is getting better and there are those willing to make the sacrifice for others. In the comics the hospital would have been full when he blew it up and Batman would have stopped the boats from exploding, not some nameless con.
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Oct 8, 2020 06:39
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Android Blues posted:I would definitely like to see a de-emphasis on the Joker as scary murder man who does insanely twisted chemical attacks in favour of making him do some actual "joke" crimes where the punchline isn't people gruesomely dying. I mean, he can go back to the murder later, but like, at least one run of crimes where he's just doing preposterous stuff would be a nice change. Arkham Knight did a surprisingly good job of this since the Joker's on-screen body count is minimal and most of his scenes revolve around black comedy.
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Oct 8, 2020 06:48
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Doctor Spaceman posted:Arkham Knight did a surprisingly good job of this since the Joker's on-screen body count is minimal and most of his scenes revolve around black comedy. The video game where he's a hallucination?
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Oct 8, 2020 06:58
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Skwirl posted:The video game where he's a hallucination? Yup. It's a very stupid game in a lot of ways but giving the Joker a lot of screen time while making him unable to hurt people leads to some great scenes.
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Oct 8, 2020 07:55
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Doctor Spaceman posted:Yup. It's a very stupid game in a lot of ways but giving the Joker a lot of screen time while making him unable to hurt people leads to some great scenes. It's also the game which makes it canon both Killing Joke and Death in the Family happened in that universe, which are again, the two biggest culprits in making Joker the super dark killer he has been in comics.
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Oct 8, 2020 08:02
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TwoPair posted:The Dark Knight is both a great movie and the worst thing to happen to comic Joker. I think this is still accurate despite the points made above. TDK didn't originate ubergrim Batman and it doesn't have ridiculous death counts etc, but I think it did help cement the idea in the public mind that Batman is serious loving business. By being so successful, it set a general tone that the comics won't deviate from, even if, in its specific details, it doesn't have Joker stapling his face onto his...uhh...face, or other insane poo poo from the comics. And as said earlier in the thread, a lot of writers resort to hackery when writing within that tone, because what else are you gonna but keep escalating the death tolls if you can't think of a better story? I can't prove it of course but I'd wager that a desire to one-up TDK helped make the last decade of absurd-in-a-bad-way Joker stories. The Killing Joke is relevant here of course, but without TDK I don't think nightmare-world Batman becomes so solidly ingrained as "the way" to do the character.
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Oct 8, 2020 08:53
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Skwirl posted:It's also the game which makes it canon both Killing Joke and Death in the Family happened in that universe, which are again, the two biggest culprits in making Joker the super dark killer he has been in comics. And has diplomatic immunity
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Oct 8, 2020 08:54
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bobkatt013 posted:And has diplomatic immunity it's just been revoked
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Oct 8, 2020 08:54
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Ignoring the racism and Islamophobia inherent in the entire thing, Iran making Joker their UN ambassador was actually kinda brilliant.
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Oct 8, 2020 09:01
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Riddler as a serial killer I'm okay with. Guys like the zodiac exist. I don't think they should lean on it every arc, and I'd bet money that even in the movie (putting in spoiler tags because even though this is speculation it's based on possible leaks) he's not even really a bad guy, because I bet you anything he's killing members of the court of Owls.
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Oct 8, 2020 14:39
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Rhyno posted:it's just been revoked 
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Oct 8, 2020 15:39
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It all started with The Dark Knight Returns really, introducing a serious Batman. I mean you have the 70's O'Neil/Adams stuff which moved Batman away from the goofy silver age stuff but DKR is the template for Batman going forward. Finally read Batman #100 and I was into right until the last 2 pages where Batman decides to leave Joker to die (yea!) but says that he knows Joker knows how to pick out of the trap he is in (boo!) only to have it look like the Joker blew up anyway (yea!) and have the Jokers last moments on earth being that Batman actually abandoned him (sure!) only to have Batman say "yea I found evidence that the Joker totally escaped" (boo!) and imply that I am not going to do anything to actually make sure he faces in kind of justice for what he did (what?!) and I will confront Clown Killer who calls me out on my bullshit about not actually stopping the Joker kill people (yep!) and act sanctimonious to the kid and tell him in vague terms that there is a better way (jerk!) and then the final 2 pages with "mystery man" saying he will go away for a while meaning we will probably see him in 10 issues time when it is time to kill another 100,000 Gothamites or whatever (boo!) but this time Bruce has learned to totally be a better bat"man" for realsies this time (sure!)
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Oct 8, 2020 18:10
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| # ? May 27, 2024 05:07 |
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Vince MechMahon posted:Riddler as a serial killer I'm okay with. Guys like the zodiac exist. I don't think they should lean on it every arc, and I'd bet money that even in the movie (putting in spoiler tags because even though this is speculation it's based on possible leaks) he's not even really a bad guy, because I bet you anything he's killing members of the court of Owls. If that's the third act twist to that, I might turn around on it a little
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Oct 8, 2020 18:15
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