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Dalael posted:I'm reminded of that scene in Rome when Pollo got wacked behind the head and he's getting cranial surgery. Can you imagine going through this, awake? that could be solved with another whack in the head
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Oct 4, 2020 22:29
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Dalael posted:I'm reminded of that scene in Rome when Pollo got wacked behind the head and he's getting cranial surgery. Can you imagine going through this, awake? A bunch of brain surgeries today happen with the patient awake. Brain tumor removals for example. The brain doesn't actually have any pain receptors itself. The scalp is numbed and the patient is sedated while the skull is removed but during the actual "rooting around in the brain" part the patient will be woken up. It allows the surgeons to monitor and map areas of the brain to make sure they aren't accidentally cutting into areas for important things like speech or language.
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Oct 4, 2020 23:11
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and ancient med people had opium too iirc it was even the symbol of some healing goddess it wasn't smoked, but eaten or mixed in wine
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Oct 4, 2020 23:20
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Mr Luxury Yacht posted:A bunch of brain surgeries today happen with the patient awake. Brain tumor removals for example. The brain doesn't actually have any pain receptors itself. Is there something to take account for the fact that I would be screaming in terror nonstop knowing I was awake and someone was poking around in my think-meat?
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Oct 4, 2020 23:35
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Poldarn posted:Is there something to take account for the fact that I would be screaming in terror nonstop knowing I was awake and someone was poking around in my think-meat? Pre-surgical consultation.
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Oct 4, 2020 23:59
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Dalael posted:I'm reminded of that scene in Rome when Pollo got wacked behind the head and he's getting cranial surgery. Can you imagine going through this, awake? Yeah when my dad got brain surgery in TYOOL 2014 he was awake the whole time. Poldarn posted:Is there something to take account for the fact that I would be screaming in terror nonstop knowing I was awake and someone was poking around in my think-meat? Yeah, Ativan. It's wonderful stuff, it's what I got when I got my corrective eye surgeries done, where they need to awake and able to focus for obvious reasons.
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Oct 5, 2020 00:08
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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That and the knowledge that your responses could be the difference between being able to pronounce vowels and do math after the surgery or not.
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Oct 5, 2020 00:19
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Cyrano4747 posted:Yeah, it really, really can't be overemphasized just what a game changer for human health germ theory was. If you get into military medicine the number of deaths from infection in the ACW is just nuts compared to what you see even twenth years later. Joseph Lister made the connection between germ theory and surgical tools (note that the surgeons grubby hands are a tool in this regard) in the late 1860s and it had become fairly widespread by the end of the 1870s. Needing surgery in 1865 was a very loving different proposition than in 1875. The saddest thing is cases like Ignaz Semmelweis. The dude had figured out through statistics and deduction that getting his students to wash their hands after dissecting cadavers and before assisting in delivering babies would drastically reduce maternal mortality rates from puerperal fever. Germ theory didn't quite exist yet, but he'd pretty much discovered aseptic technique. The entire European medical community dismissed him as a quack, he eventually went mad, was committed to a mental asylum, and then died from sepsis after being beaten by the guards. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignaz_Semmelweis#Work_on_cause_of_childbed_fever_mortality
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Oct 5, 2020 05:46
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Lead out in cuffs posted:The saddest thing is cases like Ignaz Semmelweis. The dude had figured out through statistics and deduction that getting his students to wash their hands after dissecting cadavers and before assisting in delivering babies would drastically reduce maternal mortality rates from puerperal fever. Germ theory didn't quite exist yet, but he'd pretty much discovered aseptic technique. The entire European medical community dismissed him as a quack, he eventually went mad, was committed to a mental asylum, and then died from sepsis after being beaten by the guards. that's basically a myth, in the same way that columbus discovering the earth was round is a myth - in both cases these are people who believed something that was obviously false, who in have been mythologized and assigned modern beliefs instead of the ones the actually held, then treated as matyrs. For instance, Semmelweiss' TRUE belief was specifically 'childbed fever is ONLY caused by pieces of corpses ('cadaverous particles') getting into women - so doctors who do dissections of cadavers spread it'. To which the medical establishment sensibly responded 'so why do we also see this disease in hospitals that don't do dissections, then?' Semmelweis certainly didn't believe it was a contagious disease - he's on record saying it definitely isn't! semmelweis posted:Childbed fever is not a contagious disease. A contagious disease is one that produces the contagion by which the disease is spread. This contagion brings about only the same disease in other individuals. . . .Smallpox causes only smallpox and no other disease. . . . Childbed fever is different” People asked him for more data (since childbed fever was a disease that was well known to come in outbreaks, and he could have gotten lucky). He didn't publish any additional data for FOURTEEN YEARS - and in the meantime, even in his handwashing ward there was another outbreak of childbed fever. Having had his 'no corpse hands = no fever' theory disproven, he revised his theory from 'cadaverous particles' being 'pieces of corpses', to 'things that can be produced inside living people as well', and blamed a lady on the same floor who had uterine cancer (given his lack of tact, probably with some comment like 'your poison womb is making the ICU too crowded'). Note that he wasn't even the first person to say 'hey maybe bad stuff on people's hands causes childbed fever', James Young Simpson published that theory ten years earlier - but he didn't say 'oh and that bad stuff is all corpse pieces and is the only way you get it' - making Semmelweis both late and wrong. Tunicate fucked around with this message at 07:03 on Oct 5, 2020 |
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Oct 5, 2020 06:16
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PittTheElder posted:Yeah, Ativan. It's wonderful stuff, it's what I got when I got my corrective eye surgeries done, where they need to awake and able to focus for obvious reasons. Ativan rules but lol at imagining how much further down the rabbit hole the post-punic roman republic would have gotten with assorted tribunes/proconsuls/consuls in varying degrees of benzo usage/dependency/withdrawal. Like "eh Drusus has a point, they have done a lot for Rome" being way less contentious.
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Oct 5, 2020 06:19
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There's a whole series of politics to the spread of information, and even more before the establishment of academic standards. I heard an account of that where the reason he was shouted down was because he didn't publish for a long while and then one of his detractors went out ahead of him to turn people against him before he even went out there. e:f;b.
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Oct 5, 2020 06:31
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Kaal posted:One aspect of surgery that has really changed is that Romans couldn't go nearly as deep as we can, particularly because they lacked knowledge of fundamental anatomy. Limbs and surface surgeries don't require it, but it took until medieval doctors started doing exploratory autopsies to be able to differentiate organs and their function.
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Oct 5, 2020 07:11
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Tunicate posted:that's basically a myth, in the same way that columbus discovering the earth was round is a myth - in both cases these are people who believed something that was obviously false, who in have been mythologized and assigned modern beliefs instead of the ones the actually held, then treated as matyrs. Thanks! I did not know all of that.
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Oct 5, 2020 09:22
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New plan if I had a time machine is to get Rome’s elites hooked on different substances and observe the results. The dying Caesar grasps for Brutus and cries “MY DUDE HAVE YOU TRIED LSD??”
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Oct 5, 2020 13:55
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I'm reading Adrian Goldsworthy's book on Caesar and I get the feeling that Caesar would definitely be into amphetamines. If Caesar had some Pervitin and he'd be putting down rebellions in the newly conquered province of Korea.
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Oct 5, 2020 15:11
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Amphetamines have a track record of making people think it's a good idea to launch a disastrous invasion of Russia 
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Oct 5, 2020 16:56
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:New plan if I had a time machine is to get Rome’s elites hooked on different substances and observe the results. The romans were already hooked on different substances. The state actually regulated the opium prices so that everyone could afford it and romans even (probably very carefully) got high on hemlock.
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Oct 5, 2020 19:38
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Alhazred posted:Fun fact: The egyptian doctors were often specialized. Ir-en-akhty, a doctor described in an ancient inscription, for example was a proctologist and was given the title "neru pehuyt" (Shepherd of the Royal Anus). Do you have a source for this? I want to send it to someone I know, but searching that name on google didn't produce any seemingly relevant results.
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Oct 5, 2020 22:29
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Alhazred posted:The romans were already hooked on different substances. The state actually regulated the opium prices so that everyone could afford it and romans even (probably very carefully) got high on hemlock. also they ate hallucinogenic fish
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Oct 5, 2020 22:32
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Kylaer posted:Do you have a source for this? I want to send it to someone I know, but searching that name on google didn't produce any seemingly relevant results. Irenakhet is the simmpler, more common spelling: http://giza.fas.harvard.edu/ancientpeople/658/full/
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Oct 5, 2020 22:40
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Something that sticks with me from my one egyptology class is how little we know about their language. We can read even hieroglyphs accurately (even I could for a few years and I'm a loving idiot), we can read hieratic and demotic better. We can make excellent guesses. But nobody can really phonetically write out or pronounce an ancient egyptian sentence, and all the vowel sounds are educated guesses. Like khopesh or khepesh or whatever is just ḫpš. And that's an easy example, there's poo poo that's more like (invented because I don't remember real ones) pt3'nrhw. We're probably never going to get it right unless one of the mummies finally wakes up.
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Oct 5, 2020 22:49
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steinrokkan posted:Irenakhet is the simmpler, more common spelling: I thought that we mostly don't know what the vowels were in ancient Egyptian Edit: e;fb. Though we have the occasional name from foreign sources which did record vowels, plus working backward from Coptic which is written in something close to the Greek alphabet.
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Oct 5, 2020 22:50
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feedmegin posted:I thought that we mostly don't know what the vowels were in ancient Egyptian I don't mean it's correct phonetically, it's just how it's more commonly written in popular literature. I'm sure OP's version is the preferred one among scholars.
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Oct 5, 2020 22:53
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:We're probably never going to get it right unless one of the mummies finally wakes up. If the dead choose any year to walk the earth it'll be 2020.
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Oct 6, 2020 12:10
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galagazombie posted:If the dead choose any year to walk the earth it'll be 2020. 25 days to Halloween. There will be a full moon, and the Way will be opened for the Old Ones. All will be eaten. Iä Cthulhu fhtagn.
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Oct 6, 2020 12:26
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Tunicate posted:also they ate hallucinogenic fish what's that?
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Oct 6, 2020 12:30
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steinrokkan posted:Irenakhet is the simmpler, more common spelling: My Egyptian is – not very reliable, but poking around it looks as though the words in question are part way down the column on the right, reading downwards: 𓈖𓂋𓅐𓃒𓀸 𓄖𓎛𓅱𓏏 𓉐𓉻𓂝 which reads nr (or possibly nr-iḥw, according to Faulkner’s dictionary) pḥwyt pr ’3, meaning ‘guardian (or herdsman, ox-herd) of the rectum of the Great House (the Palace, or the Pharoah)’. So it looks perfectly fine, except that neru is probably an error. Which is a shame, since nrw pḥwyt would mean ‘the terrible one of the rectum’.
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Oct 6, 2020 13:30
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Grand Fromage posted:Yeah. Rome's armies had been the traditional type, you brought your own equipment. Once the state was supplying it (this was a gradual process not overnight) they had to maintain legionary workshops then later massive factories that churned out arms, armor, other standardized equipment like bags and fort pieces, blueprint books, precisely engineered siege weapon components, military rations, on and on and on. Can you go into more detail on this, or give a link, it's fascinating ----------------
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Oct 6, 2020 16:25
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Miss Broccoli posted:Can you go into more detail on this, or give a link, it's fascinating I was recently directed to The Logistics of the Roman Army at War by Jonathan Roth, and it's a very dry read, but extremely interesting. Though this book primarily deals with supplies and the mechanisms to bring supplies to the soldier, not the manufacturing of weapons and arms. But it frequently references another book: The Production and Distribution of Roman Military Equipment. The gist of it is that military equipment production was very localized, even during the early principate. Basically the state took political control of logistics after Augustus took over (as well as financial control), but was more interested in keeping control of the legions rather than standardizing or centralizing arms production. Therefore, equipment was usually supplied by local blacksmiths or workshops and such through publicani (vaguely contractors). The state seemed to vaguely fund these operations, but arms/equipment pay would correspondingly be deducted from the soldier's pay. This is partly why you see a lot of regional variance in Roman armor. But it became centralized in the third century under state-owned military bases called fabricae. I'm not too certain as to why specifically this became the case, I imagine it's related to the "crisis", but I won't speculate. Later on, they became even more centralized and bigger.
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Oct 6, 2020 17:55
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ChubbyChecker posted:what's that? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ichthyoallyeinotoxism
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Oct 6, 2020 19:31
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Oct 6, 2020 20:18
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Saw this and thought of you Romaoi. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRRQQVK6nV8 Copronymus has got to be one of the most hilarious epithets ever recorded?
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Oct 7, 2020 07:31
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ecureuilmatrix posted:Saw this and thought of you Romaoi. I can’t tell if this is real or not
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Oct 7, 2020 14:50
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sbaldrick posted:I can’t tell if this is real or not How can it be real if our eyes arent real?
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Oct 7, 2020 16:08
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I feel like much with any other science, good medicine needs a central body of information, study and experimentation, hence why you see it in major stable powers of the time- Egypt, Rome, the Middle East at its height. The scary part is how easy it is to backslide and how hard it is to discredit quackery. The Game Boy derail comes to mind as a funny example of economies of scale since even at the time it was considered underpowered, but pretty much all of Nintendo's handheld competitors had the same problem; making a higher-end device with better graphics and more powerful hardware but struggling to attract games people wanted for it and having a much higher price point, and much worse battery life, especially in the early days. Things only turned around with the smartphone and tablet revolution completely changing the game, hence why the Switch is basically the console people have been trying to make for decades. (Remember that one thread with the Razer gaming tablet that was considered completely absurd?) To roll it back, it's like how the Greeks and Romans didn't industrialise with the steam engine; they didn't have the required technologies to support it as anything more than a novelty.
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Oct 8, 2020 04:41
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ecureuilmatrix posted:Saw this and thought of you Romaoi. I’d watch that show in a heartbeat. Weird political drama, long philosophical discussions between broken people, long panning shots of medieval industry, and everybody yelling at Romanos IV to go lead the army while he breaks down and tries to run away? Hell yes.
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Oct 8, 2020 05:01
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ThatBasqueGuy posted:our eyes arent real That’s how you know it’s the ERE!
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Oct 8, 2020 05:12
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I feel like it's a bit of a misrepresentation to say that they invented the steam engine. They invented a thing that uses steam to spin around, but not in a way that could really be used for much. Like they knew enough about using rotational energy to do stuff, because they used waterwheels, but I'm not even sure how much energy you could get out of aeolipile, much less how you would stick an axle on that thing to actually use that force.
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Oct 8, 2020 05:44
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One book I read made the claim that the Roman's had highly useful watermills but that they were only used in major population centers because anywhere where you didn't need the incredible throughput of an automated mill, slave labor was cheaper
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Oct 8, 2020 05:59
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cheetah7071 posted:One book I read made the claim that the Roman's had highly useful watermills but that they were only used in major population centers because anywhere where you didn't need the incredible throughput of an automated mill, slave labor was cheaper They had waterwheels to move water, which is the same but just going in the opposite direction.  SlothfulCobra posted:I feel like it's a bit of a misrepresentation to say that they invented the steam engine. They invented a thing that uses steam to spin around, but not in a way that could really be used for much. I'd say that their "discovery" of the steam engine is more like discovering one of the prerequisites of the steam engine development, observing that escaping steam causes a reaction force.
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Oct 8, 2020 08:27
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