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And they laughed when I said that Paul Ryan upholds MLMpM Chairman Gonzalo Thought...
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Oct 1, 2020 10:51
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shoulda been performing in an oven instead of a cage
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Oct 1, 2020 14:32
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having read about this attempt at a new description of today's leftism, so-called "acid communism", is this just another attempt to put a bow on top of the hypernormalization we already know about? hauntology in itself isn't the crux of anything and pretty much any discussion you walk into that isn't specifically moderated to another subject is going to safely assume capitalism is already the sole outcome, so what was the point of it? is it only navel-gazing because Fisher passed away before he could finish the latter half? I can agree with one basic thing, and that is that I am really goddamn tired of revisiting the past over and over and over again; would like to see what the so-called "present" and "future" are like.
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Oct 1, 2020 18:19
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this is MLM Thought https://twitter.com/tmorello/status/1307177548271370243?s=20
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Oct 1, 2020 19:25
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uncop posted:IMO that's just a practical definition of "directing the economy". Of course they couldn't just make the economy do whatever they wanted and had to consult people who were closer to the action. But unions were a consultative body whose task was to get workers to sign off on other people's decisions, they didn't have the right to organize disruptive resistance against management and force their hand like we think of unions doing. Workers had official channels to complain, but they weren't empowered to struggle if their demands weren't met. Everyone was conceived to be part of the same team in the end, and it doesn't make sense for a team to sabotage itself. But that is precisely denial of class struggle within socialist production. i guess the debate to be had here is whether shopfloor conflict between workers and managers/central planners is actually class conflict per se, since that raises the question of whether bureaucrats were or just represented a distinct class, which i don't think they were/did. like if it's decided at the top level (with or without some kind of token consent from the equivalent of the local union representative) that a munitions plant needs to run overtime to fulfill a quota, and the workers don't want to that without earning time and a half, but (central planners claim) there's no room in the budget to give them time and a half, then there might well be outright strikes and other work disruption at that plant until the workers get their say, and the central planners are going to call that seditious and counterrevolutionary even though the local workers themselves don't feel that way at all, etc. but is that a class struggle? the workers are certainly fighting to conserve their time and very life-force, just as they would be under a capitalist system, but the other side isn't fighting to maximize its profits but to make sure the country is sufficiently armed for a defensive war (or in more peaceful times has enough tractors to continue to rationalize agriculture or something)
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Oct 1, 2020 20:24
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What the hell is this? I am attempting to organize a CSPAM chat with anyone involved in BLM protests and Russian Journalist Konstantin Syomin Who the hell is this guy? Konstantin is a well known journalist, commentator and communist. He does some of the best foreign analysis and commentary in Russia re foreign affairs. He recently visited New York and interviewed young activists about BLM and the changing conditions in America. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9t84wh2jH-w (Russian only) Here he is interviewing Richard Wolff (in English) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5rszSpuv6M#t=29s What are we discussing? Your experience in this demon cracker nation, your experience with police and protests, how american life has changed for you etc. If there is interest: Russian protests, Putin's Russia, situation in former soviet states Marxism Leninism and your hope for budding left wing movements in the US. What is the format? Zoom - probably It depends on how many people are interested. I will be in contact with him but i am hoping for at least 2-3 people with direct protest experience and as many questions as your like. I will keep you updated on the time, length when I hear back from him. In the meantime, enjoy Sovietwave 24/7 Live Stream https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5Wzj6j2krY
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Oct 1, 2020 20:45
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i had a peruvian professor who taught my latin american history courses (including two really spectacular ones on the history of the Andes) and he loving despised Gonzalo. he was an interesting guy insofar as he was not from the white ruling class and didn't really have much Spanish ancestry, didn't grow up in Lima or any other big city, and devoted his scholastic production to exposing the historical roots of material inequalities between urban Spanish Peruvians and rural mostly Native Peruvians. as a result we got a few neat lessons on the Sendero Luminoso that basically emanated from a socialist perspective but was deeply skeptical of the SP, which had a few very substantial lectures emphasizing his view that they embodied reactionary ruralism masquerading as third-worldist socialism i'm glad i got the chance to take courses with him, his perspectives on socialism, materialism, and the deep inequalities of Latin America helped me to understand that there are credentialized immigrants with strong feelings about their homeland's communist movements that aren't entirely rooted in anticommunism. his ethnic background also figured in heavily as a dude who was mostly Aymara but with a Chinese grandfather and some distant Spanish heritage who specifically publishes books about educational discrepancies, his view that both the central government and the shining path represented movements interested in extracting wealth and power from the people of the highlands without any reciprocal benefits to the actual people who need it most was a very interesting one that felt pretty on point to me
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Oct 1, 2020 21:03
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Ferrinus posted:i guess the debate to be had here is whether shopfloor conflict between workers and managers/central planners is actually class conflict per se, since that raises the question of whether bureaucrats were or just represented a distinct class, which i don't think they were/did. like if it's decided at the top level (with or without some kind of token consent from the equivalent of the local union representative) that a munitions plant needs to run overtime to fulfill a quota, and the workers don't want to that without earning time and a half, but (central planners claim) there's no room in the budget to give them time and a half, then there might well be outright strikes and other work disruption at that plant until the workers get their say, and the central planners are going to call that seditious and counterrevolutionary even though the local workers themselves don't feel that way at all, etc. but is that a class struggle? the workers are certainly fighting to conserve their time and very life-force, just as they would be under a capitalist system, but the other side isn't fighting to maximize its profits but to make sure the country is sufficiently armed for a defensive war (or in more peaceful times has enough tractors to continue to rationalize agriculture or something) Other class systems exist without profit though, class society is about extracting surplus from one class at the behest of another. What matters is the structures that shape the flow of excess production - so a capitalist firm can have such high debts, rents and costs that the capitalist running it makes no profit even though it's still exploiting its workers, it's just losing the struggle with other capitalists over that surplus. You can absolutely replace the profit drive with a production drive - the planners are rewarded or at minimum hold their current position by the political structure if they deliver X amount in something or other, then the question is how is X decided? If it's sufficiently democratically determined then it's legitimate to make that demand of the particular unit which is actually responsible for making it while claiming to be socialist but if it isn't then it's fair to say 'hey this isn't being demanded based on the will of the community, it's this select group that's ordering it done' and that'll generally form a class. Existential threats really don't change the dynamics in play here, which is why involving and educating the masses in and through political decision making is building socialism as much as developing a industrial base or military force. If your socialist state gets rolled or you get coup'ed then you want enough of the masses to understand the absolute loss they experience rather than just move from a system of better exploitation to a worse one that they become ungovernable by capitalists.
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Oct 1, 2020 21:15
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Uphold MLP thought (marx-lenin-posad)
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Oct 1, 2020 21:26
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T-man posted:Uphold MLP thought (marx-lenin-posad) My Leninist Pony
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Oct 1, 2020 21:32
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some good (bad) 1950s posting https://twitter.com/Joshua_A_Tait/status/1311794370874470400
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Oct 1, 2020 23:31
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Atrocious Joe posted:some good (bad) 1950s posting What the hell is this What kind of 12th dimensional chess did this freak think he was playing
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Oct 2, 2020 00:14
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Partisan review:
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Oct 2, 2020 00:46
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e-dt posted:Partisan review: Uuuuuuh I guess you don't actually support defunding the police OR supporting CIOC (confidential informants of color) then, remember to VOTE
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Oct 2, 2020 00:54
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when the CIA-approved "left wing" paper isn't anti-communist enough for you, time to go write for the National Review
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Oct 2, 2020 01:16
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Atrocious Joe posted:this is MLM Thought
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Oct 2, 2020 13:15
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NaanViolence posted:Except they did actually own you and your tldr response is pathetic. Try harder. They weren't even talking to me, and as i said, I read it. It's just a big mass of internalized propaganda/deep trot thought masquerading as intellectualism.
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Oct 2, 2020 20:44
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Now kiss
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Oct 2, 2020 20:51
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Deep Trot is the name of my new machine learning artificial neural network that does nothing except generate critical defenses of both US military intervention and Roman Polanski
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Oct 2, 2020 20:55
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THS posted:Deep Trot is the name of my new machine learning artificial neural network that does nothing except generate critical defenses of both US military intervention and Roman Polanski there probably literally is some NSA neural net doing nothing but generating COINTELPRO
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Oct 2, 2020 21:57
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Larry Parrish posted:there probably literally is some NSA neural net doing nothing but generating COINTELPRO I mean, have you seen the posts around here?
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Oct 2, 2020 23:50
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Oct 3, 2020 03:22
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The same western imperialists who said we'd free Muslim women from the tyranny of the hijab, got it.
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Oct 3, 2020 03:43
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Frog Act posted:i had a peruvian professor who taught my latin american history courses (including two really spectacular ones on the history of the Andes) and he loving despised Gonzalo. he was an interesting guy insofar as he was not from the white ruling class and didn't really have much Spanish ancestry, didn't grow up in Lima or any other big city, and devoted his scholastic production to exposing the historical roots of material inequalities between urban Spanish Peruvians and rural mostly Native Peruvians. as a result we got a few neat lessons on the Sendero Luminoso that basically emanated from a socialist perspective but was deeply skeptical of the SP, which had a few very substantial lectures emphasizing his view that they embodied reactionary ruralism masquerading as third-worldist socialism
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Oct 3, 2020 04:25
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SSJ_naruto_2003 posted:I mean, have you seen the posts around here? I blame cuppy
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Oct 3, 2020 04:28
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cenotaph posted:The same western imperialists who said we'd free Muslim women from the tyranny of the hijab, got it. remember the Yazidi? yeah, wonder what happened to them
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Oct 3, 2020 04:29
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im a neural network designed in the 60s optimized to post on APRANET and keep asbestos legal and I'm all outta asbestos
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Oct 3, 2020 06:45
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T-man posted:im a neural network designed in the 60s optimized to post on APRANET and keep asbestos legal and I'm all outta asbestos same but for CFC's, if we didn't have that pesky ozone layer all the carbon dioxide would just disappear, like a miracle
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Oct 3, 2020 08:08
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Ferrinus posted:i guess the debate to be had here is whether shopfloor conflict between workers and managers/central planners is actually class conflict per se, since that raises the question of whether bureaucrats were or just represented a distinct class, which i don't think they were/did. like if it's decided at the top level (with or without some kind of token consent from the equivalent of the local union representative) that a munitions plant needs to run overtime to fulfill a quota, and the workers don't want to that without earning time and a half, but (central planners claim) there's no room in the budget to give them time and a half, then there might well be outright strikes and other work disruption at that plant until the workers get their say, and the central planners are going to call that seditious and counterrevolutionary even though the local workers themselves don't feel that way at all, etc. but is that a class struggle? the workers are certainly fighting to conserve their time and very life-force, just as they would be under a capitalist system, but the other side isn't fighting to maximize its profits but to make sure the country is sufficiently armed for a defensive war (or in more peaceful times has enough tractors to continue to rationalize agriculture or something) Well, in your example, that is struggle of workers over control of the means of production, they've been forced to struggle over the terms of their labor. If it's unionizable mass struggle and not just a bunch of isolated malcontents, there must be some underlying real and general issue. Whether or not the workers are struggling against the bourgeoisie per se, they're struggling against (remnants of) bourgeois relations of production. And the management is struggling to enforce the same remnants of bourgeois relations of production, otherwise there would be no struggle necessary. So the management must play the part of the bourgeoisie within that specific struggle regardless of what role they play in general, and their struggle reinforces aspects of bourgeois class consciousness that most of us are going to take with us into socialism. Material reality isn't immediately changed by the conquest of political power, the political power is just the means to change it. The proletariat is going to have political struggles among itself over various experiments to escape bourgeois relations of production. And often enough it'll be hard to say which side in a struggle is playing the part of the historical proletariat (taking the proletarian line on that specific question), because we don't know what was necessary to reach communism before we're actually there and looking back at the past. But if the historical proletariat is prevented from struggling, then reaction is going to be winning instead in the meantime, so it's better to err on the side of allowing too much struggle than too little. Frog Act posted:i had a peruvian professor who taught my latin american history courses (including two really spectacular ones on the history of the Andes) and he loving despised Gonzalo. he was an interesting guy insofar as he was not from the white ruling class and didn't really have much Spanish ancestry, didn't grow up in Lima or any other big city, and devoted his scholastic production to exposing the historical roots of material inequalities between urban Spanish Peruvians and rural mostly Native Peruvians. as a result we got a few neat lessons on the Sendero Luminoso that basically emanated from a socialist perspective but was deeply skeptical of the SP, which had a few very substantial lectures emphasizing his view that they embodied reactionary ruralism masquerading as third-worldist socialism Never expect feuding leftists to faithfully represent each other though, how often do you see it happen? Your prof's relationship to Gonzalo sounds like Orwell's relationship to Stalin. I mean i don't doubt that there were enough reactionary ruralists in the movement to believably misrepresent the whole movement as such, but it sounds like he was trying to prove that a huge chunk of their core militants were fools duped to work against their interests. Much like the pitiable workers who made the mistake of thinking the Bolsheviks, CCP etc. were on their side  .The Peruvian left fears and hates the PCP as much as the state does because it was very hostile to most of them even as a matter of theoretical principle. It was always made sure that there were enough lies circulating about them for everyone to pick and choose based on what they prefer to believe, and everyone prefers narratives that make them out to be the good guys. Even its mass organizations were (are?) hyper-secretive, so few people who are still able to speak in public know how they really operated, and it's easy to dismiss people calling out libel as liars themselves (obvious incentive to lie since they were supporters and are probably still in hiding and hoping to be pardoned). Due to the lack of reliable history, everyone gets to pick and choose what to believe in and come up with a lot of disparate narratives that all seem authoritative. Also don't forget that they were never outright destroyed, so it's in a lot of people's active interests to keep the isolated from the masses and the incentive to keep old lies alive is still there, and publishing&tenure don't work that differently from how they do up north.
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Oct 3, 2020 09:17
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if they were blowing up metro stations and detonating car bombs in downtown lima, then they probably weren't making distinctions between urban workers and the urban bourgeoisie. there's really not been any successful cases of a peasant-based movement alone taking power anywhere i can think of, other than the khmer rouge, which seems like a fluke provided by the chaos of the U.S. bombing campaign. once in power, they didn't have any plan other than squeezing their peasant base as much as possible before externalizing the regime's own internal contradictions via warfare with vietnam, which they predictably lost.
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Oct 3, 2020 15:02
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JyJ2azwmtoo
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Oct 3, 2020 16:47
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:if they were blowing up metro stations and detonating car bombs in downtown lima, then they probably weren't making distinctions between urban workers and the urban bourgeoisie. there's really not been any successful cases of a peasant-based movement alone taking power anywhere i can think of, other than the khmer rouge, which seems like a fluke provided by the chaos of the U.S. bombing campaign. once in power, they didn't have any plan other than squeezing their peasant base as much as possible before externalizing the regime's own internal contradictions via warfare with vietnam, which they predictably lost. Lol Khmer Rouge, how about just China and Vietnam? If anything, the Peruvians were less peasant-based than either of those two. The Khmer Rouge ended up as aggressively anti-modern and were forced on the road they took, PCP was always going for the Chinese road with a New Democratic period of modernization on a national bourgeois basis. Bombing targets in cities is only anti-whatever the target is. Car bombs are a precision weapon and the train bombing was a terror attack targeting specifically imperialist tourists and was set up in a way that reduced the relative danger to the crew of the train. I don't mean to say they didn't seriously gently caress up at times, but the point is that you've got a lot of violent liberation movements to categorize as anti-worker if you were to apply those standards non-hypocritically.
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Oct 3, 2020 22:56
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totally off topic here: one thing Ive seen some centrists argue with regards to the Japanese Politics thread is the severity of the threat the Japanese "Red" Army posed while downplaying or outright denying any CIA influence on suppression of any type of Left Leaning dissidents. was there ever really a Red Army to begin with that wasn't just a giant front for CIA-funded Far Right reactionaries? if I'm wrong, im wrong. given the knowledge of poo poo like gladio, what makes my observation flawed or delusional? BornAPoorBlkChild fucked around with this message at 05:56 on Oct 5, 2020 |
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Oct 5, 2020 05:47
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I know I like to complain about strict marixsts being unable to appreciate modern presentation. But, I just ran into some who embrace modern tech when I was looking for out of copyright ebooks and grabbed a text file bc I thought even they couldn't screw this up. At least I learned that there is an unicode symbol for a long s. quote:Hegel bemerkt irgendwo, daß alle großen weltgeſchichtlichen Thatſachen
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Oct 7, 2020 17:08
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VictualSquid posted:I know I like to complain about strict marixsts being unable to appreciate modern presentation. But, I just ran into some who embrace modern tech when I was looking for out of copyright ebooks and grabbed a text file bc I thought even they couldn't screw this up. What's the problem here?
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Oct 7, 2020 21:20
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T-man posted:What's the problem here? It iſ annoying to read.
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Oct 7, 2020 22:16
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Only a matter of time before they ban marx, engels, etc order your copies while you still can https://twitter.com/aaronmcn/status/1312308729828827136?s=21
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Oct 8, 2020 05:49
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Race Realists posted:totally off topic here: i'm pretty sure that the baader-meinhof group were 'pure' commies, as was e.g. carlos the jackal and various nationalist militias. in general, though, communist groups have been infiltrated by the security state even if they weren't violent - almost certainly any actively fighting organisations will have had serious effot expended towards infiltration. even the bolsheviks got infiltrated by the okhrana, after all
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Oct 8, 2020 07:38
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Malkina_ posted:Only a matter of time before they ban marx, engels, etc order your copies while you still can this has been a thing since the 50s i think
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Oct 8, 2020 07:40
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The difference being american capitalism wasn’t on the verge of total collapse in the 50s
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Oct 8, 2020 09:37
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