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I definitely agree that right now making tags and such is one of the most compelling goals in CK, but I think that's mostly because of the map--there being a map as one of the main visual elements in the game means staking your claim to a chunk of it is a natural goal. If you themed the game differently, other things--e.g. making a dope palace--could have that weight instead. And you could even still aim to get tags, just divorced from the map element, which honestly might free them up to be more interesting. I'm definitely not trying to argue it'd appeal to everyone tho. I understand for a lot of people the map is vital. Honestly I'm kind of in that camp myself, but it has had me thinking about some of the other things in a medieval simulation that could be emphasized had the game took a different route.
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Oct 8, 2020 05:56
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Ice Fist posted:It's really not that bad. The only tedious thing to me is the religious/cultural rebellions and how it can take a goddamn century to convert new territory. Yeah, as long as you don't get too bothered by the internal border gore you can largely ignore territory you have held for a while and focus on setting up your new acquisitions. Managing a huge empire really isn't all that taxing, and I generally prefer it to just sitting around on speed 5 and clicking through feasts. There are ways to speed up converting new territory, delegating to vassals helps (they will convert their own lands so long as they aren't dealing with constant revolts), and the trick mentioned before by releasing a prisoner with the same religion as a county in exchange for a hook, giving them that county, then demanding their conversion using the hook (which converts the county). If you're going to convert counties yourself I highly recommend the perk that negates the fervor different penalty. I almost don't bother converting myself if I don't have the perk and see the task is going to take 10+ years.
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Oct 8, 2020 06:02
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Koramei posted:I definitely agree that right now making tags and such is one of the most compelling goals in CK, but I think that's mostly because of the map--there being a map as one of the main visual elements in the game means staking your claim to a chunk of it is a natural goal. I could see them changing combat to focus more on the rpg and less on the map and macros, and doing in an abstract way would also help blobbing, I feel. Like instead of us discretely controlling our armies that is all of our empires troops, have 'theatres' of a sort, where you assign troops to garrison/be on army duty. Your garrison manpower is now also your offensive manpower, so you could just empty everything for one final push if you wanted to be super vulnerable. Combat could be a more abstract of take a theatre, assign them to take x territory and your armies and generals quality affects how that goes rather than micro and tedious sieges. I guess the big anti blobbing would be to have garrison manpower = offensive, so you have to balance having troops on ALL your borders, vs just massing up your grand army. Though I will also say the alt history, especially when it becomes to religions, is of interest to me. I wouldn't really care for like....Christian/Muslim castle life sim but wacky revived Hellenism/Norse pagan castle sim? hell ya.
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Oct 8, 2020 06:08
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Koramei posted:I definitely agree that right now making tags and such is one of the most compelling goals in CK, but I think that's mostly because of the map--there being a map as one of the main visual elements in the game means staking your claim to a chunk of it is a natural goal. I get where you're coming from, especially now that the RPG stuff is the strongest aspect of the game, but you would have to make a completely different type of game to make it work and be interesting. You need stakes or a story as well as goals and things for the player to overcome. I bet you could make a medieval court sim RPG with its own mechanics, but I don't think you could base a whole game around CK style events and have it still be fun.
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Oct 8, 2020 06:11
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I don't think you can or should strip the military aspect out of this, the primary job of all these people was to be purveyors of violence. The problem is really that you have too little to do with that military day to day, and way too much information about other armies around you. The RPG element is key to it as well, as what made for genuinely powerful armies was when a powerful noble could gather up not just his own men-at-arms, but a bunch of other people's men-at-arms (be they vassals, fellow crusaders, etc.) and bring them all to one place. Managing the network to do that, rather than your vassals being mostly absent antagonists, is what the game should be about. PittTheElder fucked around with this message at 06:17 on Oct 8, 2020 |
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Oct 8, 2020 06:13
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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^^^^ It is pretty crazy that you know, down to the last man, what the strength of your opponent's levies are. I don't think you should have that level of perfect information about even your own troops. You put out the call, and hope that 100% of your dudes show up, but they probably won't! I think the "build a dope palace" is a great idea though. Civ 3 had this and I found it to be a really fun feature even though it had zero impact on the game itself. In CK3 your palace or wonders/monuments/tombs could even add a bit to the score if you wanted to get gamey with it. But really the idea is just to build something. Most strategy games have an ultimate wonder or capital improvement or what have you.
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Oct 8, 2020 06:16
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You could strip war and map aspects out of Crusader Kings and it would possibly be a better game, but it would also not be Crusader Kings anymore. I feel that the game just needs a lot more internal conflicts and events once you get big enough. Make the focus of the game turn inwards once you've reached empire status. Also, I just noticed that building temples now give 500 instead of 100 piety. It's a shame you can only do so after you've already reformed an unreformed religion.
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Oct 8, 2020 06:17
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palindrome posted:^^^^ It is pretty crazy that you know, down to the last man, what the strength of your opponent's levies are. I don't think you should have that level of perfect information about even your own troops. You put out the call, and hope that 100% of your dudes show up, but they probably won't!
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Oct 8, 2020 06:26
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Eh I guess it depends on whether it's accurate to within 1% or 50%, or whether you had other game mechanics like martial recruitment to make it more reliable or better. Maybe you'd have a chance to get 102% of your levies. I get it though, a bunch of this game is based on having perfect knowledge of your surroundings to inform your decisions, and abstracting that away does lead to bunch of bullshit. Whether or not that is fun is open to interpretation. The dice-roll combat already introduces a large amount of randomness into fighting wars, but I admit I haven't played this game extensively so my opinions may be uninformed.
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Oct 8, 2020 07:08
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I like how I've taken the entirety of East Francia, Frisia, Bavaria, and most of the kingdom of Italy, and the Pope still keeps on calling crusades for Lotharingia, where one of my vassals have taken a single county. Edit: My vassals are still starting wars against targets they have absolutely no chance of beating, I hope they look into this as it's getting a lot of my relatives killed/imprisoned. Edit2: And tanking my fervor, since they are all using holy war CBs. Edit3: Meh, absolute throne authority it is, gently caress you vassals. Broken Cog fucked around with this message at 07:53 on Oct 8, 2020 |
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Oct 8, 2020 07:24
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I would love, like, a history at the end. I’m about 40 years out from the stop date and the thing that I’m enjoying most is seeing old family names pop up. Like “oh poo poo. Blackadder. I remember giving your unlanded ancestors a county because of the name. And now you’re a duke. Good for you”. This is my first time playing a CK game and I’ve sunk like 100+ hours into this one dynasty. My third king affected me so much in terms of the story telling aspect of it. I was hooked by living out his life. And that’s lessened some the deeper I guy and I find myself min/maxing and not role playing as hard. But similar to the “work over generations to build a badass castle” idea, I’d really appreciate some, I dunno, computer generated ode to my family. Remind me of the wars and who I conquered and all of that. Give me the scope of time as a reward for playing 400 years.
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Oct 8, 2020 07:38
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The Commission Epic decision should give you an actual Epic
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Oct 8, 2020 07:45
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Broken Cog posted:I like how I've taken the entirety of East Francia, Frisia, Bavaria, and most of the kingdom of Italy, and the Pope still keeps on calling crusades for Lotharingia, where one of my vassals have taken a single county. Pretty sure the Pope targets Holy Sites with Crusades most of the time (if possible), so he may be going for Cologne.
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Oct 8, 2020 07:56
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Magil Zeal posted:Pretty sure the Pope targets Holy Sites with Crusades most of the time (if possible), so he may be going for Cologne. Reasonable explanation, though I never took Cologne. Might be they just prioritize kingdoms with holy sites in them, then. Also, anyone know if the "Region of Italy" means only the kingdom of Italy, or the entire peninsula?
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Oct 8, 2020 08:00
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Decided to play an unreformed religion and it wants like 4k piety to reform. How is that even possible in a single lifetime?
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Oct 8, 2020 08:43
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Learning lifestyle monarch, perks will charge that up and the prophet tree cuts reform costs by 50%
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Oct 8, 2020 08:44
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Peachfart posted:Decided to play an unreformed religion and it wants like 4k piety to reform. How is that even possible in a single lifetime? As mentioned, learning focused monarch with the +piety lifestyle focus (will give you a bunch of events thatcan give you piety), go on pilgrimages when you can. Defend against holy wars if you can (I think you can offer to join anyone of your faith defending against one). Other than that, there's often some unique ways of gaining piety based on the religion you are, check the tenets. For example, Asatru gets a lot of piety from executing prisoners.
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Oct 8, 2020 08:48
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Also possible without Learning if you have a long life, get lucky with crusading and don't often need to convert counties or fabricate claims.
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Oct 8, 2020 08:58
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So I stopped sleeping with my wife because I got the Great Pox and I didn't want to infect her. Now that it's gone, is it possible to remove that modifier?
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Oct 8, 2020 09:34
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palindrome posted:^^^^ It is pretty crazy that you know, down to the last man, what the strength of your opponent's levies are. I don't think you should have that level of perfect information about even your own troops. You put out the call, and hope that 100% of your dudes show up, but they probably won't! It might turn into low-level D&D randomness fest. Like you have a 1000 men, give or take 200. Your enemy has 1000 give or take 200. You already have a lot of randomness in battle. This might mean that your definitive battle might be 800 vs 1200 and you have 20% penalty to fighting ability due to random roll or vice versa. So it would only make sense to start wars where you have total advantage. Nowadays you can attack an enemy with 800 army with 1000 and still be unpleasantly surprised, but it's a rarity and you can analyze what happened. palindrome posted:I think the "build a dope palace" is a great idea though. Civ 3 had this and I found it to be a really fun feature even though it had zero impact on the game itself. In CK3 your palace or wonders/monuments/tombs could even add a bit to the score if you wanted to get gamey with it. But really the idea is just to build something. Most strategy games have an ultimate wonder or capital improvement or what have you. I guess the dynasty is there for that. It's hard to do something like that with Feudalism at the center. Your story is about migration, many famous characters are supposed to move their capital elsewhere (Rurik to Kiev, Spanish kings to Madrid maybe, William the Conqueror to England, Vikings to wherever they want, Turks and everybody else to the City of the World Desire). Turning your small backward county into a jewel of the world is an interesting roleplaying experience but it's not historical and not optimal. Again, everyone expects them to add Artifacts sooner or later. I suspect this time they might do something like a dynasty hall from it. So that you have a lot of memorials reminding you of important events without giving any actual or at least not significant bonuses. Like paintings of your greatest rulers or skulls of vanquished foes or crown of an empire they created.
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Oct 8, 2020 09:50
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Trevor Hale posted:And that’s lessened some the deeper I guy and I find myself min/maxing and not role playing as hard. One thing I would like to see is Paradox pushing more towards a playstyle that's more inducive to roleplaying and internal management then it is to min/maxing and conquest. There will always be the issue that if your minmaxing hard you'll inevitably reach a point where you are completely unthreatened by any neighbouring realm, at which point conquest devolves into busywork. This is always going to be an issue with strategy games, but in CKIII a person is always going to have a significant advantages over the A.I for a variety of reasons, and that tipping point will arrive sooner and sooner as a player becomes more experienced. Instead of making conquest more difficult, I hope future updates and expansions instead aim at limiting player expansion through the character system. The stress mechanic is a good start, but if they could pull off other ways of pushing players towards mismangament and collapse in a way that remained engaging I think it would really give the game some legs. Hell, it could even be a way to make warfare and battles more interesting. Medieval history is full of indivdual temperments having a big impact on the outcomes of wars. Let my arrogant king die from a stray arrow because he was too eager to put his armour on, let a fickle vassal refuse to commit to either side of a civil war until the outcome is clear, allow for miraculous victories attributed to the direct intervention of god. You could add a fairly major factor of chance in warfare, but as long as it tied into the larger narratives of the characters, you could pull off making losing fun. Vagabong fucked around with this message at 12:32 on Oct 8, 2020 |
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Oct 8, 2020 12:12
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I thought one good change in this game is the stress system and how it encourages you to role-play your character given his traits, but you can still engage in a bit of min-maxing if you want to deal with the stress hit. Not that it's too difficult to deal with stress, but the idea is good.
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Oct 8, 2020 13:27
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Dreylad posted:I thought one good change in this game is the stress system and how it encourages you to role-play your character given his traits, but you can still engage in a bit of min-maxing if you want to deal with the stress hit. Not that it's too difficult to deal with stress, but the idea is good. I like it a lot but I wish there was a way to see what traits have what stressors. Good traits like ambitious and just are almost traps now because of stress gains and you can only find out with trial and error.
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Oct 8, 2020 13:39
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Knuc U Kinte posted:I like it a lot but I wish there was a way to see what traits have what stressors. Good traits like ambitious and just are almost traps now because of stress gains and you can only find out with trial and error. They're only traps if you plan on playing like a content, arbitrary ruler.
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Oct 8, 2020 13:48
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Dreylad posted:I thought one good change in this game is the stress system and how it encourages you to role-play your character given his traits, but you can still engage in a bit of min-maxing if you want to deal with the stress hit. Not that it's too difficult to deal with stress, but the idea is good. Yeah, it's a really interesting system, and it feels like it could be improved by simply adding more content; more stress events like the one where you torch everyone at a party, and more destructive coping mechanisms. Like a lot of stuff in CKIII what's most exciting about it is the promise of how future updates and mods will build upon its existing systems.
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Oct 8, 2020 14:21
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Peachfart posted:Decided to play an unreformed religion and it wants like 4k piety to reform. How is that even possible in a single lifetime? *laughs in Hellenism revival*
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Oct 8, 2020 14:24
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Peachfart posted:Is it just my game, or does CK3 blob even worse than CK2? The HRE owns it's territory and most of Spain, and the Byzantines own all of the middle east all the way down to central north africa. And every other nation is just insanely stable. No, it's pretty much how it goes. The larger an empire is, the easier for the AI to keep it stable, because it has much more levies to defend itself and the factions have or harder to even rise against them. Insta-teleporting levies make picking off smaller stacks no longer possible, so the only thing that can stop a large empire is another large empire. Additionally, Byzantium gets Primogeniture from the start, which limits the number of claimants and makes it even more stable.
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Oct 8, 2020 14:29
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Broken Cog posted:They're only traps if you plan on playing like a content, arbitrary ruler. I wanna know what I’m choosing when I educate heirs but even so some of the stress gains are just dumb. Just gives stress for executing criminals and ambitious gives stress for handing out titles even if your over your domain limit.
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Oct 8, 2020 14:43
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Stress is not a penalty, it's a ressource
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Oct 8, 2020 14:44
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Wasn't it in the patch notes for 1.1 that they fixed ambitious giving stress when you were over domain limit?' Edit: found it quote:- Giving out a title while above your domain limit will no longer give you stress. Previously it'd give you stress without warning you Broken Cog fucked around with this message at 15:10 on Oct 8, 2020 |
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Oct 8, 2020 14:47
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Broken Cog posted:Wasn't it in the patch notes for 1.1 that they fixed ambitious giving stress when you were over domain limit? so you don't have a heart attack giving poo poo away? I believe so.
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Oct 8, 2020 14:48
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That sounds right but goddamn does breaking up your three empires to get dynasty of many crowns quickly lead to a “heart attack or abdication” scenario
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Oct 8, 2020 14:53
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Knuc U Kinte posted:I wanna know what I’m choosing when I educate heirs but even so some of the stress gains are just dumb. Just gives stress for executing criminals and ambitious gives stress for handing out titles even if your over your domain limit. Not as far as Shy giving you Stress for pretty much every social interaction. There's also something weird in the fact that your sister, who was married away to Ethiopia when you were 4 and turned 67 this year, upsets you more with her death than your grandson and heir, whom you personally guided towards greatness since he learned how to talk.
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Oct 8, 2020 15:13
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Something really strange happened in my game, as it's an 867 start it's assuredly gonna have some weird de jure drift going on....but I've got an Emperor-Pope in my game. The story goes, I started as a Count in Sicily, Vassal of the Byzantines, and over the course of the game came to hold All of the Italian Kingdoms, plus Burgundy (I have a Vacation County in Nice). I didn't make the Empire of Italia, but instead created a Custom Empire. Now, I had just de jure drifted the remaining de jure land of the Anointed Kingdom of Romagna into my Empire, but I was not holding the Duchy of Latium, which was also Anointed Kingdom of Romagna. So once I no longer had claim to it, the Pope did. When I formed my empire, the Pope formed his own empire as now all de jure Empire of Italia was actually now only the Duchy of Latium. Needless to say, I wasn't going to unland the pope before, but now, this peninsula ain't big enough for the two of us. I'm kinda feeling like I might go after Jerusalem or Cologne as well, and create a new faith, but I've enjoyed being the steward of Catholicism and I don't really want to stop.
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Oct 8, 2020 22:01
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Blimpkin posted:Something really strange happened in my game, as it's an 867 start it's assuredly gonna have some weird de jure drift going on....but I've got an Emperor-Pope in my game. Sounds like an unexpected consequence of a dejure drift causing "Italia" to have only a few dejure counties. Normally the Pope wouldn't be able to do this because I believe you still need two kingdom titles to make an empire, but possibly the Papacy counts as a kingdom title for that purpose.
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Oct 8, 2020 22:17
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Magil Zeal posted:Sounds like an unexpected consequence of a dejure drift causing "Italia" to have only a few dejure counties. Normally the Pope wouldn't be able to do this because I believe you still need two kingdom titles to make an empire, but possibly the Papacy counts as a kingdom title for that purpose. Yeah, the Empire of Italia is now entirely contained to Latium, which the pope held, but the anointed kingdom of romagna also is entirely contained to that same duchy. He holds two titles and was able to form the imperial church, which is admittedly awesome. It took me like 10 minutes of unpacking to understand the logistics of creating an emperor pope.
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Oct 8, 2020 22:20
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striking the Pope down makes him all-powerful where have i heard that one before
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Oct 8, 2020 23:28
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Koramei posted:I definitely agree that right now making tags and such is one of the most compelling goals in CK, but I think that's mostly because of the map--there being a map as one of the main visual elements in the game means staking your claim to a chunk of it is a natural goal. Yeah I'm about with this thought process right now too. It feels ultimately like the map is sort of.. a compromise.
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Oct 9, 2020 00:16
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Is there something about western and central Europe that lets them hit feudalism quickly? As king of Novgorod in 1004 I'm still probably 100 years of innovations from making feudal, if not more. That's even after wars of conquest to become culture leader and raising an heir from birth to be a learner. Also I was worried inheriting as a child would be boring, but now I have a dog 
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Oct 9, 2020 04:43
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Most cultures in Western Europe are already feudal, and the ones (Irish, Scandinavia, Central Europe) that aren't have neighbour counties from cultures that are (or share religion with them) so they benefit from the exposure bonus to tech speed. For those with neither you're going to take a while.
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Oct 9, 2020 04:55
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