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Magnetic North posted:Yeah, I'm the opposite. I will expend money to not have to go through the energy required to save it. After all, once your basic needs are met, it's there to make your life easier. FWIW, do try it, but don't keep doing it "because you have to". If you try negotiating more firmly and it doesn't feel right, you don't have to make yourself miserable just because it can put a few more $$ in your pocket.
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Sep 22, 2020 23:59
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Fwiw my first negotiated offer I got an "lol no" from the recruiter on my counter offer. (Because I gave away far too much earlier) However it was still almost a 100% raise. Dwight and thread told me to know I'd won, enjoy it and learn how I could do it better next time. Fast forward and I negotiated again. Far better. I have since -seen- my company's HR data and I know I'm better paid than most at my level. So it's not always a game of "more" around here. It's also not beating on people. It's making people aware of the bigger picture and holding them accountable to reality over a soothing personal narrative.
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Sep 23, 2020 03:27
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How do you negotiate going temp to perm when you know they do desperately need someone, but you can't afford to have them pass either? I was out of work for a long time. I started a temp role at the beginning of the month, and my manager has asked if I'd be interested in going perm if they could get that approved. With the amount of responsibilities and volume of work, it actually seems like a full-time plus part-time workload, even when I get fully acclimated. Then again, Sept to Oct is their busiest part of the year, the guy training me was on vacation last week, and I'm new. I think given a few months to adjust and activity to die down, it should require just a few extra hours. I'm a little behind and due to constant requests outside of my main tasks, I've missed some things here and there and created backlogs or issues for other departments, so I'm a bit anxious about that. But for the moment, my manager says I've been doing great. I pretty much understand how to do everything, other than some details here and there, and she knows I am dedicated to getting the job done as opposed to just putting in the hours. I think all that's left is for me to get faster. So, if I'm getting x from the recruiter, is there a percentage increase I should be looking at? Take the salary from Glassdoor for a similar job in my area? Should I bring up my assessment on the amount of hours it takes and factor that in? I don't want to come off as a slow worker. All in all, I just want to work and get paid. A few extra thousand would be great, but having the job is the most important thing.
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Sep 26, 2020 17:51
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Well, you figure at minimum the client is probably willing to pay the same amount that they pay the agency for you. Do you have a benefits package from the agency? It gets kind of trick with cost of benefits, etc, but the minimum you should accept, imo, is current salary + a real and improved benefits package (assuming you are not getting one today). If you are getting a benefits package, you should expect an increase in salary plus an equivalent or superior benefits package. Essentially, the minimum you should accept is capturing the agency's margin. Since you are relatively desperate for a job your BATNA is extremely weak. Did the client turn to agency out of one-off desperation or is this a normal process for them?
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Sep 28, 2020 15:03
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Could anyone provide advice on title changes? I've been posting lately in Corp and Resumes because my job is a circus and I'd like to move on. Someone suggested trying to get a better title at my current job but my department has no mobility and I can't transfer. However, I was unexpectedly asked today what I think a more appropriate title for my current position would be. I want to take advantage of this golden opportunity to improve my ongoing job search, but I have no idea what to call what I do. I have a moderately complex accounting position at an org with a few hundred people. In addition to my own work, my boss considers me the backup for some non-accounting positions which are in departments of comparable size. I'm supposed to always maintain knowledge of all their relevant processes and be ready to take a position over on no notice, no hand-off, and cover it plus my own job until the missing person returns or is replaced. The tasks involved are absolutely critical to operations HR and development. They are complex enough that each position is a specialist (and makes more than me). This isn't theoretical coverage, I've done it for weeks or even months in the past. No one else in my department is asked to cover non-accounting work. In fact I'm not aware of a similar situation anywhere in the entire org. I think the word "continuity" seems relevant here but a Business Continuity Specialist seems to do planning for disasters, not clean up after the fact. I don't support the Operations team so I don't think I can ask for "Operations Continuity Specialist" either. So then I thought maybe "Administrative Continuity Specialist" but I worry people look down on "administrative" in a title, I don't want it to sound like I'm backing up other departments by doing their data entry for them. If anyone has any ideas I would appreciate the feedback!
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Sep 28, 2020 18:10
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who do you report to
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Sep 28, 2020 18:57
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strawberrymousse posted:Could anyone provide advice on title changes? I've been posting lately in Corp and Resumes because my job is a circus and I'd like to move on. Someone suggested trying to get a better title at my current job but my department has no mobility and I can't transfer. However, I was unexpectedly asked today what I think a more appropriate title for my current position would be. I want to take advantage of this golden opportunity to improve my ongoing job search, but I have no idea what to call what I do.! admiralackbar.gif
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Sep 28, 2020 19:00
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Admiral of Accounting seems good
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Sep 28, 2020 19:04
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Master of Coin
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Sep 28, 2020 19:06
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Eric the Mauve posted:admiralackbar.gif Quoting the most accurate reply so far. A while back all the staff in the department were asked to update our job descriptions as they are extremely outdated. After posting here earlier I had a meeting with my supervisor (accounting manager) to go over my first draft and we talked some more about the situation with me being asked to cover not-my-job staffing gaps. She brought up that my boss is very concerned I myself do not have a trained backup while being a critical backup for others (oh the irony), a situation which only exists because my boss keeps assigning department members as my backup who have no interest in actually performing those tasks so they never bother to learn them. She then added that they are thinking of hiring a "mirror role" to mine so that I would have a trained backup, plus this person could take on other tasks that I don't have the bandwidth for. This is something they brought up before as a "maybe next year" thing that is suddenly a "maybe now" thing. Therefore I should not worry if I see a job posting from this org for my current title. So on the upside I can stop worry about what to ask for as a new title.
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Sep 28, 2020 20:39
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That really sounds like they are hiring your replacement.
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Sep 28, 2020 21:05
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it definitely sounds like that but based on what the OP has posted it doesn't sound like that's actually a problem
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Sep 28, 2020 21:09
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:it definitely sounds like that but based on what the OP has posted it doesn't sound like that's actually a problem Only in the sense that I don't have a replacement job yet. Mostly I'm just mad that when given a choice of paying me appropriately to cover other people's jobs or just have me do my own job, it sounds like they're choosing option 3) throw me in the garbage now that I'm daring to ask for fair treatment.
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Sep 28, 2020 21:20
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Getting fired without cause means getting months’ worth of severance/unemployment pay which would be absolutely awesome, as long as you take advantage of the opportunity to get paid to job search every day, you will definitely find a new job within a few months and it will very likely be better than this one. I know it’s very hard to do, but you should do your best, wherever possible, to avoid feeling your way through this situation in favor of thinking (rationally) your way through it. Getting fired feels like a personal rejection on a marrow deep level, but objectively it is a very good outcome. The severance/unemployment means you’ll get paid solely to self-improve and job hunt for a few months. It’s great. All that said, I’m skeptical they really intend to can you anytime soon. They know you’re worth far more than they pay you, and also that you’re stuck for now in a place where they own you. More likely they just want you to be afraid of being fired, to milk as much extra work as they can for as long as they can. Eric the Mauve fucked around with this message at 21:53 on Sep 28, 2020 |
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Sep 28, 2020 21:48
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:Well, you figure at minimum the client is probably willing to pay the same amount that they pay the agency for you. Do you have a benefits package from the agency? It gets kind of trick with cost of benefits, etc, but the minimum you should accept, imo, is current salary + a real and improved benefits package (assuming you are not getting one today). If you are getting a benefits package, you should expect an increase in salary plus an equivalent or superior benefits package. Essentially, the minimum you should accept is capturing the agency's margin. According to Glassdoor, the pay isn't great but the benefits are phenomenal. The last place I worked, I knew the recruiter markup and it was a full 100%, which was crazy to me. I got nothing near that when going perm, and wouldn't expect that at this new place, or else I'd be up in six figures as a staff accountant. If the markup is 35% and I got that, with those benefits, I'd be satisfied. Just a guess, but if they offered me the position, I'm thinking it will be around 15% more than the agency is paying me. I'd say they were urgently hiring though not necessarily desperate for talent, with the market what it is right now.
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Sep 29, 2020 00:05
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Eric the Mauve posted:Getting fired without cause means getting months’ worth of severance/unemployment pay which would be absolutely awesome, as long as you take advantage of the opportunity to get paid to job search every day, you will definitely find a new job within a few months and it will very likely be better than this one. Well, I confirmed with HR that my file is clean and that per org policy any documentation they want to submit will generate a copy to me. I also spotted the proposed org chart for next year while I was accessing a different document, which shows me in my position and then a lower ranked position that would do related work to mine and would make sense as my backup. However when I asked my supervisor "are you sure you meant a second person with my title is being hired vs this other title being hired?" her answer was essentially "no idea what the boss wants to do lol". Which is standard for my interactions with her, she is like the human incarnation of a contract you will regret signing. So now I don't know if the situation is that I'm being replaced, they're jerking me around, or they're just so incompetent and indecisive that they're winding me up by accident. I'm not going to beg if that's what they want though, if it happens it happens and I will definitely be better off long term. My main concern was whether it would look bad getting canned even for no cause, but you're right that it's money in my pocket if they want to go that route. They don't have anything on me, and I'm not giving them anything to work unless you count politely making it clear that the situation as it stands needs to change. In any case my plan stays the same because jfc this place is destroying my mental health, I need to go. Moneyball posted:According to Glassdoor, the pay isn't great but the benefits are phenomenal. I don't have any useful advice here but just wanted to say good luck fellow accounting ghost. 
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Sep 29, 2020 00:33
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strawberrymousse posted:Well, I confirmed with HR that my file is clean and that per org policy any documentation they want to submit will generate a copy to me. I also spotted the proposed org chart for next year while I was accessing a different document, which shows me in my position and then a lower ranked position that would do related work to mine and would make sense as my backup. However when I asked my supervisor "are you sure you meant a second person with my title is being hired vs this other title being hired?" her answer was essentially "no idea what the boss wants to do lol". Which is standard for my interactions with her, she is like the human incarnation of a contract you will regret signing. No nerd on an internet forum knows as much about your situation as you do, but this is sounding like more incompetence than maliciousness to me. You should still find your advantageous exit as quickly as you are capable, but I wouldn't get stressed out about them trying to find a safe way to fire you.
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Sep 29, 2020 15:10
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Dwight Eisenhower posted:No nerd on an internet forum knows as much about your situation as you do, but this is sounding like more incompetence than maliciousness to me. That was my lean too, but SM's made a lot of posts in the Corporate thread that lead me to suspect it might be malice after all. Or not exactly malice per se, just that the management involved knows exactly what a terrific deal they have in SM and have gotten pretty good at manipulating him into working his rear end off and doing four people's jobs for the price of 0.75 of a job. They've maneuvered him into a position where he can't leave because on paper he's underqualified to do the jobs he's already doing, thus would have to take a pay cut/demotion to work at any other company. That's his dilemma. (Also why I'm skeptical they actually intend to fire him.) Eric the Mauve fucked around with this message at 15:30 on Sep 29, 2020 |
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Sep 29, 2020 15:27
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Dwight Eisenhower posted:No nerd on an internet forum knows as much about your situation as you do, but this is sounding like more incompetence than maliciousness to me. Eric the Mauve posted:That was my lean too, but SM's made a lot of posts in the Corporate thread that lead me to suspect it might be malice after all. Or not exactly malice per se, just that the management involved knows exactly what a terrific deal they have in SM and have gotten pretty good at manipulating him into working his rear end off and doing four people's jobs for the price of 0.75 of a job. They've maneuvered him into a position where he can't leave because on paper he's underqualified to do the jobs he's already doing, thus would have to take a pay cut/demotion to work at any other company. That's his dilemma. (Also why I'm skeptical they actually intend to fire him.) It's really hard for me to tell what's going on from the inside either, because my boss and supervisor are both the kind of people who conceal information as a habit. So from one time to the next I can never tell if they are being evasive because they're doing something to my detriment or just because they have no plan and won't admit it. I once asked my boss "what are my duties going to be 6 months from now?" because I was covering a major staffing gap and then she also changed a bunch of my tasks around at the same time. She just said "we can't know what will happen tomorrow". The parts I bolded in Eric's reply are dead on, too. I was hired in a junior position, then a more senior spot opened and my boss hired someone who did not work out, so she moved me to that role but I carried forward responsibilities from the original role. Then I managed to do everything from both those roles plus improve on those processes plus take on new stuff. So from the start I've been giving her a lot of labor (physical and emotional) that I shouldn't have. I thought working at an NPO meant I would be surrounded by people who wanted to go all out to accomplish the org's mission, so that's how I behaved. Hard lessons have been learned. Well, the plan is the plan, I'm going to keep my head down at work and keep job hunting and looking at educational options until I figure out a way out of this mess.
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Sep 29, 2020 17:20
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Had an interesting call with a FAANG recruiter just now. Of course the last question was to try to get me to give a number. I went with “I know the market and the role you are looking for and am confident you would have a competitive offer.” Recruiter then offered more than I expected: “Well for roles of this level we typically offer the top of the pay band (bullshit detector went off here, but whatever) which would be $185 base, then there would be signing bonuses for year one and year two, say year one would be $300 and year 2 would be less, but that’s because your stock would start vesting and by the time you hit year 3 and 4 the stock would take care of the upside.” So in a way I didn’t get an OTE number but I got some insight into the fact that the structure is very different from other roles (no variable income component at all). I would also very gladly take $485 year 1 with no other upside than take $250 with chance at upside above that (I would have thrown out $350 or $400, maybe $500 if feeling cheeky). Never say a number.
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Sep 29, 2020 20:57
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Ultimate Mango posted:Had an interesting call with a FAANG recruiter just now. Of course the last question was to try to get me to give a number. I went with “I know the market and the role you are looking for and am confident you would have a competitive offer.” Amazon is a unique beast in the way they structure their comp, with the capped base salary, huge cash signing bonuses, and very delayed RSU vest. They know most people won't make it past two years, and the extreme backloading on RSU vesting reflects that. Most other big techs have a linear vest schedule, and some have no initial vesting cliff at all. But yeah, like I said earlier, FAANG and most similar companies have pretty predefined pay bands and they aren't out to individually lowball you. Within a pay band there's not a ton of wiggle room, but the bands are fairly generous. It's just important to get leveled right as you come in, because getting underleveled and waiting on a promo will take a while, if ever. caveat: may not apply to super-senior roles, where the market is thinner Guinness fucked around with this message at 21:23 on Sep 29, 2020 |
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Sep 29, 2020 21:13
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Hi thread. Looking for advice for my partner. She just finished a grad program last spring and is looking for work. ~5 yrs experience in her prev position before leaving to get her master's. This is public/govt/nonprofit sector. She has an offer on the table from a smallish but well-regarded private consultancy place. No other offers, but has just done a couple other interviews within the last week or so, at least one somewhat promising. This offer is for about 53k, 5k higher than the pay she was getting at her previous place before leaving for grad school. We're thinking the minimum she'd accept is around 57-8k. Originally talking like we'd be happy/would be looking for more like 65k, but that's seeming unlikely. 53k puts her firmly in the associate level, but given her experience she really should be mid-level, which starts at 56k and goes up to about 75k. What's the counteroffer? obviously BATNA is walk away and keep looking, so not ideal, but we're living with family and at zero risk of being underwater. we have as much time as we need, as long as she can keep sane. I'm unsure if her min should really be 57k as she honestly wouldn't be all that happy with it long term. HR person gave the usual stuff about moving up to midlevel past associate quickly, but we all know how much that's worth.
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Oct 1, 2020 22:35
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is this real consulting or what because that seems like not a lot of money
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Oct 1, 2020 22:43
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it is real consulting, but this is in the nonprofit world where the clients don't have a ton of money going around. i'd expect it to be higher given its private and not a nonprofit itself, but it seems kinda niche and i don't know poo poo about the field so v valso this is midwest so not poverty wages like it'd be on the coast, but still not great
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Oct 1, 2020 23:58
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Sorry, I no read good. The junior consultant market is all hosed up right now, a lot of offers got pushed, and people are getting laid off. KPMG and Accenture just had decent sized layoff rounds in the couple hundred range. Is Associate their entry level? I would expect her to come in one or two tiers up with a Masters. Our tiers are Associate Consultant, Senior Associate Consultant, Consultant, Senior Consultant. AC is entry level, we expect one year or a bit more in each level. If you have a Masters you come in at Consultant, typically.
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Oct 2, 2020 00:47
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:Sorry, I no read good. The junior consultant market is all hosed up right now, a lot of offers got pushed, and people are getting laid off. KPMG and Accenture just had decent sized layoff rounds in the couple hundred range. Confirm... I joined my company as a senior consultant with a master's and 6 years relevant experience, plus 3 years non-relevant experience.
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Oct 2, 2020 00:49
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They have assistant below associate, then mid and senior. To me associate says 2-4 years exp, or fresh out of master's with no experience. It's tough for me to say whether her experience is perfectly relevant (HR said it wasn't, but that may be a lowballing tactic as they want her for the job anyway), but it was in nonprofit research, basically the people this place serves. Plus her masters work including internships were directly relevant. It's possible that if the skills don't transfer perfectly that she'd take a hit moving that direction salary-wise. She may be better off elsewhere not doing consulting, but I'm also kinda trying to figure that out with you guys, if you have any wisdom.
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Oct 2, 2020 01:59
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When I went into consulting out of university that’s pretty close to the offer I got (albeit in Canada) for the entry level band at the green dot. I tried to negotiate but nada, take it or leave it. The one thing I’ll say is that my salary doubled in a few years, plus bonuses and such along the way. But yeah right now a lot of firms aren’t even hiring up here, or are doing pretty significant layoffs in some sectors. The local market would be an important consideration.
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Oct 2, 2020 02:08
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Hooplah posted:They have assistant below associate, then mid and senior. To me associate says 2-4 years exp, or fresh out of master's with no experience. you are not going to make more money than doing consulting with that type of background edit: you will also likely have better opportunities for advancement in consulting. it's very much an environment where you are trying to get every ounce of effort out of people and so therefore if you are capable and marginally competent at internal politics you will be promoted. KYOON GRIFFEY JR fucked around with this message at 12:32 on Oct 2, 2020 |
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Oct 2, 2020 12:07
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Ultimate Mango posted:Had an interesting call with a FAANG recruiter just now. Of course the last question was to try to get me to give a number. I went with “I know the market and the role you are looking for and am confident you would have a competitive offer.” Everything Guinness said above is true. Even at senior levels, the salary pay bands seem low compared to other offers. They make up for it with the "bonuses" in year 1 and 2 and then the stock kicking in year 3 and 4. This is why when people talk about FAANG comp, it's generally in TC rather than OTE. They also, by default, price in stock growth to your offer to with an expectation of 15% annually so look out for that one as well.
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Oct 4, 2020 06:58
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Shrimpy posted:Everything Guinness said above is true. Even at senior levels, the salary pay bands seem low compared to other offers. They make up for it with the "bonuses" in year 1 and 2 and then the stock kicking in year 3 and 4. This is why when people talk about FAANG comp, it's generally in TC rather than OTE. Yeah, I’ve done a bit of research since then. In some way guaranteed income for the next year seems nice. But the recruiter has gone silent and I’m a non-traditional candidate (I have more breath than most) so I expect this one is dead. My gut tells me I need to be with a smaller company than a larger one. Being with a small group in a big company still give like zero freedom given the role segmentation that happens at scale.
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Oct 4, 2020 07:05
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Ultimate Mango posted:My gut tells me I need to be with a smaller company than a larger one. Being with a small group in a big company still give like zero freedom given the role segmentation that happens at scale.
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Oct 5, 2020 05:56
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I'll try my best to keep this short and sweet: I've been working at a small yet extremely toxic tech startup for the past 2.5 years, one so bad I was ready to quit after only the first few months. The benefits are trash, there's no retirement match, the workload is pure insanity and continues to grow, and both management and the culture is atrocious. People are fired left and right, they're talked down to in weekly 1:1s, and we're made to do a lot of work for our customers for free that are outside the scope of the product/company and for which we have no training or experience. The whole company is a massive dumpster fire. After the two year mark I still hadn't received a single raise, and when I asked for one, it took 4 months before my manager told me "you need to prove your worth as an investment first". They also changed my title from a senior one to a junior one without telling me (but there was no accompanying pay decrease). But ecause this job paid double my previous salary, I stayed. Now they're implementing Radford levels and trying to transform the job into a call center, and the nightmare seems to get worse every day. I was interviewing regularly up until the pandemic lockdowns but, for whatever reason, every place I interviewed at had serious red flags; some outright refused to negotiate on salary, others offered salaries that were below even what I made straight out of college, others were condescending and manipulative in the interviews, etc. They were all depressing experiences. However, interviews have finally started to pick up for me again, and I may finally have an offer coming this week with what seems to be a much healthier and relaxed employer, but I have a couple issues I'm not sure how to address. The first is that I'm thoroughly and completely burned out - I can't stress how burned out I am. I don't know if I'm even capable of doing a good job at a new place, or that I'll have the motivation to try. For years now I have wanted to quit and take a self-imposed sabbatical to earn some industry certifications and "find myself" - I have aggressively saved a couple years worth of "gently caress you money" to do this with - but I've been afraid of the consequences/career suicide in doing so. If the offer I get is too low, I may not accept and opt for the sabbatical. How badly would I be kneecapping my potential with this option? I have almost a decade of experience working in IT systems administration. The second issue is, assuming the offer is a healthy one, what's the best way to break the ice on the negotiation? I've gone through this thread but what I've seen assumes verbal negotiation - I'm assuming it'll arrive over email, and I don't think I've negotiated an offer over email before. It's been almost 3 years so I'm a little rusty, and knowing some good ice breakers might help.
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Oct 7, 2020 00:04
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Chalets the Baka posted:
For the first one you could maybe negotiate a later start date. Say you quit your lovely place (honestly sounds like you plan on doing this if you take this job or not, so I would probably quit tomorrow) well tomorrow, maybe you could start in January. That give you a few months to recoup. Over email is great. Just lay out your requests in an email and send them off. I am sure if you post it here plenty of people will provide good comments.
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Oct 7, 2020 00:14
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You aren’t killing your career by taking a sabbatical, especially if you have a compelling story of what you’ve done during that time. Based on what you’ve said (assuming it’s truly “walk away for multiple years” money) you should quit your terrible job tomorrow and appreciate the fact your BATNA right now is pretty good. You don’t need this job, you are comfortable walking away from a bad offer. Get your head right.
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Oct 7, 2020 00:33
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Yeah I mean as an HR "professional" it sounds like showing up and taking a steamer on the desk then peacing out is the best thing to do for your mental health. There's going to be no red flags for gaps this year when all you really have to say is Covid, or "I resigned due to a poor fit with the new company culture."
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Oct 7, 2020 00:38
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Yeah, "COVID" should explain any gap, so now's the perfect time to take some time for yourself.
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Oct 7, 2020 01:47
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Chalets the Baka posted:
I think you play the honest card: that you want to start a new job fresh and engaged and you need some serious time off to stave off a mental breakdown/midlife crisis, but you frame it in a way you want to committ your best effort but need time to recharge. I think if you say it was startup culture hell and then some, they'll know what you mean. Oh, and obviously, securing a job offer is pressure off you during recovery period as well, and you'd prefer to breathe easy  Two things I would personally negoatiate for: start date AND an easier /lighter schedule during training days as you get brought up to speed. Maybe take wednesdays off (2 on, 1 off, 2 on, weekend off, repeat) for the first While. Fridays off are an alternative, but I think for countering burnout the 2 on-break is better than 4 days in a row; its just freshing). Further down the road, its possible you could angle to keep that schedule, or just slip into full time role when its reasonable that you're fully brought up to speed.(a month? 6 weeks? 90 day probationary period that some companies do? )
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Oct 7, 2020 02:20
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Thanks for all the advice/reassurance on this. How much leverage over other terms of the offer (salary, benefits) would I likely be sacrificing in favor of a later start date? They're looking to hire quickly - I think this position is open because the previous person quit due to being required to be physically in the office - and I may not have too much leverage here to begin with, unfortunately. Upside is I may have another offer coming down the pipeline as well, so I'm not completely out of options. Both employers require physical presence in the office/onsite, which I'm not comfortable about, but it seems that's the nature of most work available now.
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Oct 8, 2020 18:33
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Chalets the Baka posted:Thanks for all the advice/reassurance on this. How much leverage over other terms of the offer (salary, benefits) would I likely be sacrificing in favor of a later start date? They're looking to hire quickly - I think this position is open because the previous person quit due to being required to be physically in the office - and I may not have too much leverage here to begin with, unfortunately. Upside is I may have another offer coming down the pipeline as well, so I'm not completely out of options. Both employers require physical presence in the office/onsite, which I'm not comfortable about, but it seems that's the nature of most work available now.
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Oct 9, 2020 16:35
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