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Dietrich posted:The problem I have here is "specifically to further a man's storyline." Could you give me an example of a love interest dying in a novel that would not further the protagonist's storyline? Or are you saying that having love interests die at all is problematic? The position I'm taking is that it happens a lot, and specifically to female characters (which is probably an artifact of the protagonists of heroic fiction mostly being men). It becomes a problem when the character in question only exists as a motivation for the male protagonist, which in fairness is not the case with Murphy. Ultimately these books are written to formula, and that's not necessarily a complaint (or a knock on Butcher, it's true of pretty much all urban fantasy, almost by definition), but it's worth poking the formula with sticks from time to time. I'm more disappointed because it confirmed my worst fears that the books were moving toward "only people with superpowers need apply to be considered heroes", and that's a real shame. Murphy was an effective character specifically because she could go toe-to-toe with monsters without magic powers or a fancy sword or I guess immortal Viking powers now. Deciding that, welp, her entire life as a detective and a woman of principle, gently caress that, you must be this supernatural to get on this ride, that's the actual lazy writing going on here.
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Oct 6, 2020 13:34
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docbeard posted:The position I'm taking is that it happens a lot, and specifically to female characters (which is probably an artifact of the protagonists of heroic fiction mostly being men). It becomes a problem when the character in question only exists as a motivation for the male protagonist, which in fairness is not the case with Murphy. Well, one thing about the Butcherverse is that so far the only "superpowers" are supernatural. And at some point you sometimes really do need superpowers to fight superpowers. Even Batman occasionally straps on some super-powered battle armor. So, if I had to pick between Murphy getting a supernatural power-up or Murphy sitting on the sidelines being Dresden's cheerleader, or, even worse, damsel-in-distress, I'm for the power-up every single time. Plus Murphy gives us a window into what being an einenjager is really like from the inside. Meanwhile, it's possible that I just learned more about Balor from the latest episode of Ducktales than from the two most recent Butcher books.
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Oct 6, 2020 15:11
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docbeard posted:The position I'm taking is that it happens a lot, and specifically to female characters (which is probably an artifact of the protagonists of heroic fiction mostly being men). It becomes a problem when the character in question only exists as a motivation for the male protagonist, which in fairness is not the case with Murphy. The way she went out (killing a fire giant with a loving bazooka, then dying to some jackass with lovely trigger discipline), the civilians fighting back, and the way the national guard shredded the Formor at the end directly supports the thesis that you don't need superpowers to fight the baddies. Maybe she'll end up getting a powerup from it, but maybe it's just an inflection point in Dresden's arc where he almost becomes a monster again but still chooses humanity, which is like the meta-narrative for his entire story. It's turning into a game of how many deals can you make with monsters before you become one.
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Oct 6, 2020 15:22
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Dietrich posted:The way she went out (killing a fire giant with a loving bazooka, then dying to some jackass with lovely trigger discipline), the civilians fighting back, and the way the national guard shredded the Formor at the end directly supports the thesis that you don't need superpowers to fight the baddies. Maybe she'll end up getting a powerup from it, but maybe it's just an inflection point in Dresden's arc where he almost becomes a monster again but still chooses humanity, which is like the meta-narrative for his entire story. It's turning into a game of how many deals can you make with monsters before you become one. Humans are more dangerous in a volume approach, though. A human one on one in a straight up fight is almost 100% going to lose. But a thousand humans with shotguns against a wall of meat are going to do well every time. I'm pretty sure a squad of like, ten white court vampires dropping into the middle of that crowd would have caused a ridiculous amount of damage. It's just that 10 WC vampires are significantly more valuable to them than 1k humans thanks to their population size. It's why people like Kincaid specialize in assassinations and not just brawling all the supernaturals.
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Oct 6, 2020 16:14
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I am just imagening the USA nuking the nevernever.
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Oct 6, 2020 16:48
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How many times did Listens-to-Wind drop onto someone's head as a bear only to get tossed aside? because I know it was more than three times, and only really worked the first time. Kept waiting for the Genoskwa to show up again after the foreshadowing in Peace Talks, but he was probably forgotten the same way Bonea was.
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Oct 6, 2020 18:12
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biracial bear for uncut posted:Kept waiting for the Genoskwa to show up again after the foreshadowing in Peace Talks, but he was probably forgotten the same way Bonea was. Nah, it's very typical for Butcher to skip a couple of books before bringing back a character you expect to see sooner. Lasciel doesn't show up in book 6 after Dresden picks up the coin in book 5; he exorcises her copy in book 9, and no real followup to this happens until books 14-15. Dresden claims Demonreach in book 11 but we don't really find anything out about it until book 14. Hell, Dead Beat (book 7) was almost all new characters, both allies and enemies, except minor throw away bit character Waldo Butters from book 5.
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Oct 6, 2020 18:37
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His Divine Shadow posted:I am just imagening the USA nuking the nevernever. If we don't, the terrorists win. Everyone fucked around with this message at 19:42 on Oct 6, 2020 |
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Oct 6, 2020 19:40
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Real bad copy editing in this one too, a lot of repeated phrases
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Oct 7, 2020 13:44
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Phobeste posted:Real bad copy editing in this one too, a lot of repeated phrases Maybe that's what happened for pretty much every time Listens-to-Wind shows up in a fight.
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Oct 7, 2020 14:18
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biracial bear for uncut posted:Maybe that's what happened for pretty much every time Listens-to-Wind shows up in a fight. Yeah pretty sure. Plus weird little repeated phrases about battle being a lot of cardio, stuff like that. Careless
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Oct 7, 2020 18:01
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How else would you know that he has a pentagram shaped amulet, given to him by his mother, with a red stone glued into the center. And with a minor effort of will, it lights up? I think that small paragraph is on a macro he just hits on the keyboard everytime he needs a light in book
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Oct 8, 2020 09:24
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I think Butcher's even commented before that he uses repetition deliberately for effect. And repetition can be used well that way. He just overdoes it.
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Oct 8, 2020 13:09
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So you're saying he gets a little repetitive with it. 
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Oct 8, 2020 13:21
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There's no way Listens-to-Wind become a bear and dropping on things is used for effect. He just thought it was cool and kept using it over and over again. Maybe he forgot each time?
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Oct 8, 2020 13:33
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Aerdan posted:So you're saying he gets a little repetitive with it. I am saying he gets a little repetitive with repeating himself.
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Oct 8, 2020 13:36
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docbeard posted:I am saying he gets a little repetitive with repeating himself. So he repeats repetition over and over again?
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Oct 8, 2020 13:48
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RosaParksOfDip posted:There's no way Listens-to-Wind become a bear and dropping on things is used for effect. He just thought it was cool and kept using it over and over again. Maybe he forgot each time? It's probably one of his go to moves tbh
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Oct 8, 2020 13:50
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Everyone posted:So he repeats repetition over and over again? My favorite Beyond Belief episode involves the protagonists playing a drinking game where they take a drink whenever the other characters repeat themselves. Or whenever they don't. I've said it before but I think Beyond Belief, from The Thrilling Adventure Hour, may well be my favorite urban fantasy.
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Oct 8, 2020 14:00
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docbeard posted:My favorite Beyond Belief episode involves the protagonists playing a drinking game where they take a drink whenever the other characters repeat themselves. Or whenever they don't. That's the one with the parody of Nick and Nora but super lushes, right? I *love* the episode that riffs on IT. When Sadie whose sloshed out of her mind starts insulting "Pennywise" I couldn't stop laughing. All of the Thrilling Adventure Hours are great. Beyond Belief is my fav, but Sparks Nevada is really funny too.
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Oct 8, 2020 14:10
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Proteus Jones posted:That's the one with the parody of Nick and Nora but super lushes, right? I *love* the episode that riffs on IT. When Sadie whose sloshed out of her mind starts insulting "Pennywise" I couldn't stop laughing. Hee hee hee...CLOWN! CLOOOWWWWWNNNN! Yeah, that episode is fantastic (and fittingly enough for the current conversation, an example of a repeated gag that works very well in subsequent episodes).
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Oct 8, 2020 14:19
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RosaParksOfDip posted:There's no way Listens-to-Wind become a bear and dropping on things is used for effect. He just thought it was cool and kept using it over and over again. Maybe he forgot each time? I think it happened three times. Maybe four. One time he was an elephant. One time it failed. That's about on par with the number of Fuegos and Forzares Harry throws out.
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Oct 8, 2020 14:47
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Yes, but Harry is notoriously poo poo at magic beyond just brute force. I'd have expected better from that character. Mix it up a bit. There are 100s of cool things he could have done instead of this one move that has variable effectiveness. Side note, Harry must have a really hosed up wrist from the amount of times his shield bracelet went superhot and burned him.
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Oct 8, 2020 14:56
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Harry's not really poo poo at magic, he's rather good at the field of building/enchanting stuff and ritual magic in the same way Molly is/was great at veils and mind magic. The difference is Harry has the juice to make big explosions despite not having a gift for that field.
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Oct 8, 2020 15:48
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Yeah, the text describes it as he just dumps enough raw power into his spells to get the desired effect. Efficiency is not his strong suit. Kinda like renting the biggest uhaul you can find just to move a single piece of furniture. It'll work, but you're wasting a lot of effort and money you don't need to.
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Oct 8, 2020 16:01
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jivjov posted:Yeah, the text describes it as he just dumps enough raw power into his spells to get the desired effect. Efficiency is not his strong suit. Kinda like renting the biggest uhaul you can find just to move a single piece of furniture. It'll work, but you're wasting a lot of effort and money you don't need to. Plus the fact that for x books / y years in universe he acknowledges and says the same thing, but never bothers to do anything about it
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Oct 8, 2020 19:14
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I'd consider him poo poo at fight magic since he has less skill than younger wizards. The only thing he has going for him is the capacity to be incredibly wasteful and still be somewhat upright without passing out from the expenditure immediately. I wouldn't call someone a good pitcher if they throw so hard they can strike anyone out but they immediately have to sit out the rest of the inning cause they tore their rotator cuff. He's definitely much more skilled at some of the other aspects of magic rather than straight up fight magic despite that being most of what he ends up doing.
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Oct 8, 2020 19:29
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His evocation has gotten better as he ages and practices, but his talents don't lie in that direction. Maybe in 50-100 years he'll be playing at a different level, but for right now he gets by with foci, cunning, and a lot of power that other wizards just don't have access too
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Oct 8, 2020 19:34
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Dresden is almost always broken or recovering from being broken. My guy needs to take a break from world ending poo poo and learn a more efficient fire spell - though according to the books this takes years of practice? When is the last time we have seen Dresden practice?
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Oct 8, 2020 20:20
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smertrioslol posted:Dresden is almost always broken or recovering from being broken. My guy needs to take a break from world ending poo poo and learn a more efficient fire spell - though according to the books this takes years of practice? When is the last time we have seen Dresden practice? When he was convalescing in Cold Days, and before that when he was training Molly. And both times he pulled off stuff in the books he had previously described as beyond his level of control (mostly stuff to do with veils on the fly).
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Oct 8, 2020 20:30
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I am fairly sure Butcher just doesn't have a good grasp of how to make Harry feel more powerful compared to characters he doesn't have to write all the time, which is why Carlos can turn people into dust while he's still a neophyte warden and pretty much every single person is shown doing insanely over the top crazy powerful spells that involve jugging a mountain and ten mousetraps in your mind or whatever.
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Oct 8, 2020 20:40
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Literally just make him do the same poo poo but more efficiently. Learn little quirks he can accomplish now that he's not trying to control a firehose all the time. Slightly more delicate applications of blowing poo poo with wind or making his beams of fire curve or something. Anything other than "I blew the thing away with wind but it was really big and it used a bunch of energy and now I need to lie down for two days but omg I have to keep moving cause the world is ending".
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Oct 8, 2020 21:11
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He has done that though. There was that whole bit in Change where he daisy chained killed some Red Court vampires by leeching the heat energy of one to freeze it, then lit the next one fire with that energy, and so on and so forth.
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Oct 8, 2020 21:21
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Rygar201 posted:He has done that though. There was that whole bit in Change where he daisy chained killed some Red Court vampires by leeching the heat energy of one to freeze it, then lit the next one fire with that energy, and so on and so forth. While yes he’s done it occasionally, as an above poster noted he mostly just throws all of his mind or being or soul into a spell once or twice EVERY BOOK.
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Oct 8, 2020 21:44
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I finished Battle Ground the day after it came out, but it took me until today to get through the audiobook listen through. I was surprised how certain sections jumped out at me with Marsters' reading when they hadn't grabbed me on the page. For example when Harry is marching through Chicago and 'raises' the banner of the Winter Knight, I was already going numb from the constant battle in the book, but Marsters' inflection grabbed my attention and made me realize that that is thematically one of the most important passages. And I did a little fist pump.. On the other hand, why oh why does Chicago crime boss Gentleman Johnny Marcone have a British accent? Why James? He should sound like John Goodman talking about Ditka. A few other notable bits from the listen through: Marsters' performance after Karen died gave me all the feels (as my daughter would say), I noticed again that he never does Mabs voice the same twice. I wonder if that is intentional, as Butcher says that she changes size and appearance frequently, and finally, I laughed out loud at the You shall not pass scene. I thought it was worth a listen through even though I'd just read the book a few days before.
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Oct 8, 2020 23:03
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gerg_861 posted:I finished Battle Ground the day after it came out, but it took me until today to get through the audiobook listen through. I was surprised how certain sections jumped out at me with Marsters' reading when they hadn't grabbed me on the page. For example when Harry is marching through Chicago and 'raises' the banner of the Winter Knight, I was already going numb from the constant battle in the book, but Marsters' inflection grabbed my attention and made me realize that that is thematically one of the most important passages. And I did a little fist pump.. Marsters tried to give him a more 'mob boss' accent in one of the books (The one where he gets kidnapped) and it was just loving awful.
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Oct 8, 2020 23:10
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gerg_861 posted:On the other hand, why oh why does Chicago crime boss Gentleman Johnny Marcone have a British accent? I’ve never listened to the audiobooks, but if it wasn’t like that before, Thorned Namshiel is described as having a British accent I think, could be Marsters got confused based on that line? Or maybe Marsters is just psychic.
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Oct 8, 2020 23:49
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Rygar201 posted:His evocation has gotten better as he ages and practices, but his talents don't lie in that direction. Maybe in 50-100 years he'll be playing at a different level, but for right now he gets by with foci, cunning, and a lot of power that other wizards just don't have access too One thing Dresden seems to be especially good at on an instinctual level is tapping into supplemental power sources for his magic. I think because of that he's never really had as much need to "budget" his power. Plus, there's his background as well. If you want to compare Harry to an action movie type, he's more like John McClane or Jack Burton than he is, say, Dutch (from Predator) or John Wick. He's more of an "Everyman wizard" than someone trained by special forces or super-ninjas or something. It seems like Dresden got most of his formal combat training under Justin DuMore. McCoy seemed focused on teaching him self-control and restraint. And the rest he kind of picked up here and there on his own or with Bob's help. He's a Warden who was never actually trained as a Warden but through surviving a bunch of ridiculous stuff long enough to become kind of a badass. So figure a lot of formal training in combat magic involves rationing your energy and using it efficiently so you don't blow your wad nuking five monster when, oppsie, ten more show up when you're about to pass out. I think one reason he actually improves some is due to Molly being his apprentice. Dresden actually notes that teaching Molly the basics meant relearned and grounding himself in those same basics.
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Oct 8, 2020 23:58
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Harry's greatest source of power is his moral certitude - which kind of gets old.
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Oct 9, 2020 01:40
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Wizchine posted:Harry's greatest source of power is his moral certitude - which kind of gets old. It actually is - but mostly because various bad guys want to tempt him into immorality so they keep shoving power at him. If Dresden was more obviously selfish he wouldn't get poo poo from them.
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Oct 9, 2020 03:00
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