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SyntheticPolygon posted:Atra learning about polyamory and going "Wow this rules" is actually very good. maybe it would be if her reference point for this wasn't such an idealized version of a common, gross male power fantasy that seems to be mostly presented in an uncritically positive light. the stuff going on with naze is already pretty gross so seeing a child view it on screen and start copying it is pretty well the point where i go "yeah, i can't rec this show to anyone now"
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Oct 9, 2020 16:27
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Also I guess going into detail is a spoiler and it's been a while since I saw the show so let me know if I'm misremembering, but I never felt like Mcgillis was at all interested in her child bride - it was a political arrangement and she was a useful tool for him, so he would just indulge her. But given that one flashback with Mcgillis' adoptive father's very strongly implied abuse of McGillis I think it's meant to show how morally bankrupt Gjallahorn is.
Azran fucked around with this message at 16:41 on Oct 9, 2020 |
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Oct 9, 2020 16:35
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The child bride stuff is uncomfortable but more acceptable in that the discomfort is at least obviously intentional and it doesn't feel like an endorsement of the situation presented
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Oct 9, 2020 16:41
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ninjewtsu posted:maybe it would be if her reference point for this wasn't such an idealized version of a common, gross male power fantasy that seems to be mostly presented in an uncritically positive light. the stuff going on with naze is already pretty gross so seeing a child view it on screen and start copying it is pretty well the point where i go "yeah, i can't rec this show to anyone now" Yeah, my criticism as I've gotten older isn't of polyamory, but rather that the version they decided to go with is the 1) heteronormative male fantasy of one man many women with 2) an inherently unequal power dynamic. There's no indication Naze abuses his power, and it is explicitly stated that the girls are free to move on at any time. I don't remember if they say outright that some of them just pull a 9-5 and don't give a drat about hooking up with Naze or not. However Naze is still their boss, and it has the Dominic Deegan Dilemma where the girls would be hard exploited and or sold into slavery if they weren't with Naze's crew. I think they do want to say something positive about polyamory, but swan-dove right into the tropes that make it problematic. edit: I'd have gotten a kick out of Naze being interested in Akihiro after Lafter starts showing interest in him. Make Naze pan. Warmachine fucked around with this message at 17:38 on Oct 9, 2020 |
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Oct 9, 2020 17:34
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The Naze thing is very squirrelly because while the show does uncritically lionize him for the least nuanced aspect of his setup, it also underlines that Atra was wrong to project those expectations onto Mikazuki, and Orga was wrong to project those expectations onto himself. The latter is the other weird point with Naze, which is that people tend to focus on the fact that his crew is all women because the show is focusing on the fact that his crew is all women, even though he's lowkey doing the same big-tent adoption thing with Tekkadan. It was definitely a choice to emphasize the Turbines being wives over wards and that makes some of the other metaphors needlessly confusing. e: Also Atra's only basis for polyamory being Naze meant her vision of her ideal throuple was still pretty Mikazuki-centric and IBO continued being uncritical about that outside of the part where it was, well, Mikazuki. At least she got about as good of an ending as she was going to out of it. Caphi fucked around with this message at 17:58 on Oct 9, 2020 |
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Oct 9, 2020 17:49
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Warmachine posted:Yeah, my criticism as I've gotten older isn't of polyamory, but rather that the version they decided to go with is the 1) heteronormative male fantasy of one man many women with 2) an inherently unequal power dynamic. this is a pretty good summation of how i feel about it honestly. like sure, polyamorous alternative family structure, fine, but did they really have to choose "singular guy with a massive ship-sized harem that they have an awful lot of hero worship over but they all like it and no problems come because of it so you don't have to consider that maybe there's some issues with that"
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Oct 9, 2020 17:57
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episode 13 (the funeral) was an immediate step up in writing quality right from the opening scene. i kinda didn't care much for the masahiro story, but that death scene finally really sold it, and the rest of the episode just kept it up from there. seeing emotional punches land this hard right after a couple of episode of limp wristed ones is quite the experience. in particular i really liked the bit where the kids were told that they were allowed to cry and they refused, saying that they were sending off their brothers the way they wanted their brothers to see them. akihiro getting his brother's suit is neat, in particular there's been a lot of emphasis on how those suits have a ton of armor, which seems to fit akihiro's reckless and relentless fighting style pretty well. now he can actually believably survive the poo poo he pulls
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Oct 9, 2020 18:29
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ninjewtsu posted:akihiro getting his brother's suit is neat, in particular there's been a lot of emphasis on how those suits have a ton of armor, which seems to fit akihiro's reckless and relentless fighting style pretty well. now he can actually believably survive the poo poo he pulls If I'm remembering right, he goes straight for the Gusion, not one of the Rodis. The reason he was asked about it is "are you sure you want to pilot the machine that killed your brother?" Honestly my favorite part of these episodes was the continuing trend of Tekkadan's big tent policy, taking in the kids that were being used by the Brewers.
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Oct 9, 2020 18:35
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ninjewtsu posted:maybe it would be if her reference point for this wasn't such an idealized version of a common, gross male power fantasy that seems to be mostly presented in an uncritically positive light. the stuff going on with naze is already pretty gross so seeing a child view it on screen and start copying it is pretty well the point where i go "yeah, i can't rec this show to anyone now" Not that you can't find it bad or weird, but I don't think it ends up feeling much like the Turbines? It's not like Atra meets them and starts thinking Mikazuki needs many wives or anything and more that she thinks "Wow, my crush can date both me and my new best friend? Sounds good." It's definitely messy though and not entirely intentionally.
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Oct 9, 2020 21:42
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As I've often said, I think that the characters idealise the Turbines slightly more than the show does, if only because Naze gets himself and most of his girls killed in a way that directly foreshadows Tekkadan's destruction and invites us to draw parallels with the way Orga (who idolised Naze) hosed up. Their happy ending involving Azee getting the suit and hat through quiet competence rather than messianic charisma also seems kind of meaningful.
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Oct 10, 2020 01:41
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Darth Walrus posted:As I've often said, I think that the characters idealise the Turbines slightly more than the show does, if only because Naze gets himself and most of his girls killed in a way that directly foreshadows Tekkadan's destruction and invites us to draw parallels with the way Orga (who idolised Naze) hosed up. Their happy ending involving Azee getting the suit and hat through quiet competence rather than messianic charisma also seems kind of meaningful. Also, Naze tells Orga to stay out, while Tekkadan showing up in the only reason the Turbines survive to reform under Azee. Naze is presented as a "best case" future for Tekkadan in the same way as the Brewers are worst case, but that doesn't mean it's a Tekkadan with all the flaws removed. Naze is shown to be a good person, one of the best in the show, but he's got Orga's same tendency to take responsibility for things he really can't handle, and that sometimes means he gets the people he's actually responsible for in trouble. And, as we discussed last time Naze came up, Mari Okada being the head writer and the person most responsible for the Turbines's dynamic makes it feel a lot less like a self-indulgent fantasy and more like a way of exploring the show's family themes, with people on the outskirts of society having to make their own structures.
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Oct 10, 2020 01:55
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Darth Walrus posted:As I've often said, I think that the characters idealise the Turbines slightly more than the show does, if only because Naze gets himself and most of his girls killed in a way that directly foreshadows Tekkadan's destruction and invites us to draw parallels with the way Orga (who idolised Naze) hosed up. Their happy ending involving Azee getting the suit and hat through quiet competence rather than messianic charisma also seems kind of meaningful. I still don't get this read. Are you saying Naze should have yanked Orga's chain at the start of the season, and because Naze didn't rein in his ward he got killed for it...?
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Oct 10, 2020 02:51
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Warmachine posted:I still don't get this read. Are you saying Naze should have yanked Orga's chain at the start of the season, and because Naze didn't rein in his ward he got killed for it...? Yeah, I'm confused about this whenever it comes up too. Naze in S2 did basically nothing wrong that would precipitate that outcome besides, uh, I guess not physically restraining Orga from doing dumb poo poo? Hell, he literally gets killed while in the process of taking himself and his girls into hiding specifically because things have gotten too hot and he thinks it's unsafe and wants to be cautious.
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Oct 10, 2020 03:54
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Kanos posted:Yeah, I'm confused about this whenever it comes up too. Naze in S2 did basically nothing wrong that would precipitate that outcome besides, uh, I guess not physically restraining Orga from doing dumb poo poo? He bets his organization's welfare on Orga not doing dumb poo poo, then when he's getting hunted by Gjallarhorn, he tells Orga to not get involved. The first decision means that McMurdo can't bail him out when Gjallarhorn gets involved. The second, if Orga had followed through rather than let Shino and Akihiro "coincidentally" show up just where the fight was happening, would have lead to far worse fatalities, possibly wiping out everyone evacuating. Naze tried to take everyone's problems as his own, just like Orga. And as a consequence, he died as did a lot of the people he was trying to protect... just like Orga.
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Oct 10, 2020 04:04
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chiasaur11 posted:He bets his organization's welfare on Orga not doing dumb poo poo, then when he's getting hunted by Gjallarhorn, he tells Orga to not get involved. His entire plan was to go into hiding, and when they got rumbled, he immediately tries to surrender himself to custody to protect his employees. He would have had to have magic psychic future vision to be able to know that Iok would 1. deliberately ignore all attempts to surrender and 2. deploy completely forbidden war crime superweapons that had not been used in centuries and are coincidentally amazingly good at blowing up fleeing ships that are otherwise mostly immune to long range gunfire. Shino and Akihiro helped salvage the disaster, but there was absolutely no way anyone could have known in advance that it would happen, and Naze specifically refused Orga's help because he believed that picking an open fight with the Space Cops would make things worse for both himself/his employees, and Tekkadan. He absolutely didn't try to take everyone's problems as his own, he tried to flee and hide to protect his family and died for it through no real fault of his own. If he was trying to take everyone's problems as his own he would have been actively helping Tekkadan instead of going into hiding.
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Oct 10, 2020 04:32
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the atra/mikazuki/kudelia thing is literally the best part of the show edit: also i feel like people tend to read atra as twelve and not like, the same age as all the other tekkadan leads, 16ish. which is still a kid granted but shes not really a literal child with no concept of romance or sexuality or anything edit edit: also the stuff with Akihiro's brother is definitely the worst part of S1's writing, random villains and the way the brother thing is introduced is super clumsy. Feels like they should have introduced Akihiro's missing brother early on - maybe have him paying one of the adults to look around for him next time they go into space or something? - and then let it sit until the pirate arc. Endorph fucked around with this message at 04:40 on Oct 10, 2020 |
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Oct 10, 2020 04:37
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atra looks way younger than 16.
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Oct 10, 2020 04:42
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Even if Akihiro had just mentioned his brother in the initial getting-to-know-the-characters start of the show it would have felt a lot more natural.
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Oct 10, 2020 04:43
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Kanos posted:Even if Akihiro had just mentioned his brother in the initial getting-to-know-the-characters start of the show it would have felt a lot more natural. Stairmaster posted:atra looks way younger than 16.
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Oct 10, 2020 04:45
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atra should be jacked from all the baking she does
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Oct 10, 2020 04:49
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I think it's brought up at one point about Atra and Mika looking younger than they are because of a life of poverty or something. I didn't think they were 16 though. Maybe in season 2 since that's like 2 years later?
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Oct 10, 2020 04:51
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Stunted growth is a real symptom of childhood malnourishment, so considering their background it makes sense that Atra and Mika are small for their age.
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Oct 10, 2020 05:01
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Bloody Pom posted:Stunted growth is a real symptom of childhood malnourishment, so considering their background it makes sense that Atra and Mika are small for their age. Having them look younger is also actually appropriate from a storytelling perspective, because it repeatedly drives home that these are child soldiers in a way you can sometimes forget looking at other Tekkadan members and seeing what can look like young adults.
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Oct 10, 2020 05:11
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SyntheticPolygon posted:I think it's brought up at one point about Atra and Mika looking younger than they are because of a life of poverty or something. I didn't think they were 16 though. Maybe in season 2 since that's like 2 years later? It’s believable that Mika’s about fifteen imo since there’s an entire squad for the little kids that he’s not in charge of, how he and Orga look about the same age in flashbacks, and of course him being super jacked. Also Mikazuki’s entire design is someone that looks fairly shrimpy and unassuming on a surface level because of his baggy oversized coat (which I really like) but I always thought Atra had a normalish life after Mika found her on the street a few years back compared to Tekkaden.
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Oct 10, 2020 06:22
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i would've guessed mika at 14 and atra at 12
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Oct 10, 2020 06:32
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Last Celebration posted:I always thought Atra had a normalish life after Mika found her on the street a few years back compared to Tekkaden. It’s hard to entirely make up for nutritional deficiencies at a very young age even if your circumstances improve later in childhood.
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Oct 10, 2020 06:33
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Case in point Audrey Hepburn's childhood was spent in occupied Belgium. The malnutrition during her pubescent years is likely the cause of her slight frame.
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Oct 10, 2020 06:39
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Kanos posted:Even if Akihiro had just mentioned his brother in the initial getting-to-know-the-characters start of the show it would have felt a lot more natural. My first watch I heard him mention his brother and was thinking to myself, "his brother's gonna be dead in two episodes, tops." It was a painfully obvious flag. The exchange between Mika and Kudal was good though. "You're enjoying this!" "Am I? Well, whatever." 
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Oct 10, 2020 06:48
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biscuit's definitively 16 and he, orga, and mika seem to be within about a year of each other just from how they talk to each other/how they talk to biscuit's sisters/etc. and atra is definitely older than, say, ride, whos probably closer to the 12-13 range, based on how those two talk to each other. plus they make a point of showing kudelia, atra, orga, and mika grouped together as kids in some of the EDs which implies they're all basically the same age. Realistically those four all have to be in a couple years of each other. There's no hard numbers but my read was always Mika: 16/18 (S1/S2) Atra: 15/17 Orga: 17/19 Kudelia: 18/20
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Oct 10, 2020 08:09
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I’m pretty sure Kudelia is the only one with a confirmed age (16/18), it’s on a document with her bio in one of the first episodes.
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Oct 10, 2020 08:17
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Kudelia grew up in a rich family and probably never spent a day without food, it's not really surprising that she'd be much taller than Mika or Atra. Shakespeare's house ceilings arent 6 feet high because english genetics have changed so much in the last 400 years that everyone's a foot taller now, it's because nobody back then was eating like 2500 calories a day like people do now.
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Oct 10, 2020 08:17
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Last Celebration posted:I’m pretty sure Kudelia is the only one with a confirmed age (16/18), it’s on a document with her bio in one of the first episodes.
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Oct 10, 2020 15:11
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Classon Ave. Robot posted:Kudelia grew up in a rich family and probably never spent a day without food, it's not really surprising that she'd be much taller than Mika or Atra. Shakespeare's house ceilings arent 6 feet high because english genetics have changed so much in the last 400 years that everyone's a foot taller now, it's because nobody back then was eating like 2500 calories a day like people do now. Also the funniest thing about Dracula. 5'1" scrawny motherfucker ain't gonna bite poo poo.
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Oct 10, 2020 18:16
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Caros posted:Also the funniest thing about Dracula. 5'1" scrawny motherfucker ain't gonna bite poo poo. I mean, he can fly and climb walls. Think of him less as a very small man and more as a very large vampire bat.
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Oct 10, 2020 19:48
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Caros posted:Also the funniest thing about Dracula. 5'1" scrawny motherfucker ain't gonna bite poo poo. I mean, we were just talking about Mikazuki. "Short" and "Will loving murder you" are not mutually exclusive.
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Oct 10, 2020 23:44
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chiasaur11 posted:I mean, we were just talking about Mikazuki. "Short" and "Will loving murder you" are not mutually exclusive. You both raise frighteningly good points. Carry on dracula.
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Oct 11, 2020 03:18
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Of course, this height discussion is making me poke around to try to figure out heights for IBO in general. I'm not finding any solid figures, but looking at promo art? If we assume Mika's 5 foot even, then Orga, Gaelio, and McGillis are all about 6'6, and Rustal's even taller (Height gap between him and Kudelia is at least as big as the difference between Orga and Mikazuki.). It's a remarkably tall cast by (non-G) Gundam standards. For comparison, nobody on the White Base is over 5'11''. Amida's probably taller than anyone in the original Gundam except Dozle, and absolutely everyone in SEED. As is post-timeskip Julieta.
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Oct 11, 2020 05:15
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chiasaur11 posted:Of course, this height discussion is making me poke around to try to figure out heights for IBO in general. This might help, assuming nothing changed too much in actual production:  No good for S2, though.
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Oct 11, 2020 05:40
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taichara posted:This might help, assuming nothing changed too much in actual production: It might help if I could see it. Nothing's coming through on my end right now. Currently, the best I can get is working with the MG Barbatos, which scales Mikazuki up to 160cm, coincidentally the same height as Levi Ackerman. From scaling, that puts Rustal up there with Argo Gulski in height, which... might be a little high. Definitely would appreciate that chart.
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Oct 11, 2020 05:57
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Soundtracks for Wing, G, 00, IBO, Seed and Destiny, Unicorn, Thunderbolt, Twilight Axis, The Origin, and Narrative are on streaming services now.
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Oct 11, 2020 19:57
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