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Defenestrategy posted:Branding bro, millitia in americana are heroic fight the british kind who only take up arms when tyranny or outsiders[native americans] are about. A group enshrined in the american constitution. There are legitimate reasons to be concerned about calling these groups domestic terrorists because of how that label could be given real teeth which can then be turned on other groups. Remember how Trump was trying to call ANTIFA domestic terrorists? https://twitter.com/EmilyGorcenski/status/1314977364670021633?s=19
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Oct 10, 2020 19:24
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as we know, the right only care about precedent, as I learned on my favorite show the West Wing
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Oct 10, 2020 19:30
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CharlestheHammer posted:as we know, the right only care about precedent, as I learned on my favorite show the West Wing I mean Barr literally tried and failed to get it classified as a terror organization because there were no clear laws in place
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Oct 10, 2020 19:38
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KitConstantine posted:I mean Barr literally tried and failed to get it classified as a terror organization because there were no clear laws in place I mean a newspaper calling them something isn’t exactly legal precendent.
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Oct 10, 2020 19:42
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CharlestheHammer posted:I mean a newspaper calling them something isn’t exactly legal precendent. not directly, but newspeak is a form of thought control
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Oct 10, 2020 19:48
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silentsnack posted:not directly, but newspeak is a form of thought control Militias are already illegal (and almost always right wing), so why do we need to change the terminology? "Domestic terrorists" is a broader term and already one that's been used to try to attack antifacists. I don't see the utility in potentially giving it more teeth.
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Oct 10, 2020 20:04
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KitConstantine posted:Militias are already illegal (and almost always right wing), so why do we need to change the terminology? "we" aren't changing terminology though. If a significant fraction of the media stop actively helping to legitimize white supremacist gangs and downplay rightwing violence, then it'll be a harder for said white supremacists to keep operating in the open like they have been for decades. especially when police have to answer questions as to why they're helping "terrorists". e: not saying I actually expect the majority of media to stop. just pointing out the consequence of how changing a word shapes public consciousness. silentsnack has issued a correction as of 20:28 on Oct 10, 2020 |
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Oct 10, 2020 20:25
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For people of a certain age "militia" conjures the image of white supremacist extremists thanks to the 90s.
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Oct 10, 2020 20:31
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KitConstantine posted:Militias are already illegal (and almost always right wing), so why do we need to change the terminology? "militias are already illegal" where did you get this notion? it isn't true at all tens of millions of americans equate "militia" with "the good guys" because of the wording of the 2nd amendment.
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Oct 10, 2020 20:46
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Also, legal militias still exist. I know NY has a standing milita and several other states do as well. They are called something like NY state guard or something and not associated with the national guard which is part of the reserves.
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Oct 10, 2020 20:56
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Yeah but state organizations are different from "we meet in the woods on this guy's property to do target practice and talk about killing the governor of michigan, we're a real group with legal status because we said so".
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Oct 10, 2020 21:00
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Pope Guilty posted:Yeah but state organizations are different from "we meet in the woods on this guy's property to do target practice and talk about killing the governor of michigan, we're a real group with legal status because we said so". and again there was nothing illegal about them doing that until they talked about killing the governor. A militia as far as I know has no legal definition beyond what ever laws the various National Guards are formed under. Hell they'd probably have been fine if they basically skirted the outright calling for the murder/kidnapping of a member of government and instead kept it to vague threatening noises about the guberment and taking over when the poo poo hits the fan and all that. KitConstantine posted:Militias are already illegal (and almost always right wing), so why do we need to change the terminology? Posts like THESE is why the terminology in the news needs to change, because militia comes with a connotation of some sort of legality instead of just describing "a group of armed people run by a non-state entity" Defenestrategy has issued a correction as of 21:45 on Oct 10, 2020 |
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Oct 10, 2020 21:42
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Groovelord Neato posted:For people of a certain age "militia" conjures the image of white supremacist extremists thanks to the 90s. Yeah, I hear "militia" in an American context and I assume that they're either Posse Comitatus or The Covenant, the Sword, and the Arm of the Lord white supremacists.
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Oct 10, 2020 22:22
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Defenestrategy posted:and again there was nothing illegal about them doing that until they talked about killing the governor. A militia as far as I know has no legal definition beyond what ever laws the various National Guards are formed under. The below goes into it but private militias are in fact constrained in many states by law, banned in Wyoming, and the 2nd amendment interpretation that many base their existence on has been rejected by the supreme court. https://law.jrank.org/pages/10067/Second-Amendment-PRIVATE-MILITIAS.html I also agree with the other posters that the word militia brings to mind right wing extremists rather than any sort of legal entity. I would guess most non-2nd amendment weirdos would have the same interpretation these days. Militias aren't mainstream at all. Edit: also how about we just change the connotation of militia completely to just mean "organized violent right wing extremists" then? It's already pretty universally true KitConstantine has issued a correction as of 22:45 on Oct 10, 2020 |
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Oct 10, 2020 22:33
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Azathoth posted:Yeah, I hear "militia" in an American context and I assume that they're either Posse Comitatus or The Covenant, the Sword, and the Arm of the Lord white supremacists. this has nothing to do with your age and everything to do with your ideological outlook.
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Oct 10, 2020 22:45
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KitConstantine posted:The below goes into it but private militias are in fact constrained in many states by law, banned in Wyoming, and the 2nd amendment interpretation that many base their existence on has been rejected by the supreme court. there's a pretty loving wide gulf between "banned in wyoming" and blanket illegality, you just underscored the point I was making. do you think america has some kind of pure homogenous culture? why do you think commonly-described armed militia were allowed to storm michigan's statehouse unmolested?
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Oct 10, 2020 22:52
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Flesh Forge posted:there's a pretty loving wide gulf between "banned in wyoming" and blanket illegality, you just underscored the point I was making. do you think america has some kind of pure homogenous culture? why do you think commonly-described armed militia were allowed to storm michigan's statehouse unmolested? Because the cops didn't stop them. Doesn't mean it was legal for them to do so, just means the cops didn't do anything about it. The way the group was handling their weapons could easily be seen as grounds for arrest without them being defined as "domestic terrorists". Or do you think the cops would have done something different if they were called that? And also "regulated by law in many states" is in there too. I'm American and grew up in a rural area, I'm well aware it's not a homogenous culture. I also don't think there's some vast national support for the existence of militias as a concept. Edit: also militias are banned in Michigan by the way. Weird that the cops still didnt do poo poo. From Georgetown law: Is it legal to act as a private militia in Michigan? No. All 50 states prohibit private, unauthorized militias and military units from engaging in activities reserved for the state militia, including law enforcement activities. Some, including Michigan, also prohibit paramilitary activity during or in furtherance of a civil disorder. Michigan’s laws are described below: Michigan Constitution: The Michigan Constitution forbids private military units from operating outside state authority, providing that “[t]he military shall in all cases and at all times be in strict subordination to the civil power.” Mich. Const. art. I, § 7. Michigan Statutes: Prohibition on paramilitary activity: It is a felony in Michigan to either: (1) “teach or demonstrate to another person the use, application, or construction of any firearm, or any explosive or incendiary device, if that person knows, has reason to know, or intends that what is taught or demonstrated will be used in, or in furtherance of, a civil disorder,” or (2) “assemble with 1 or more persons for the purpose of training with, practicing with, or being instructed in the use of any firearm, or any explosive or incendiary device, if that person intends to use that firearm or device in, or in furtherance of, a civil disorder.” Mich. Comp. Laws § 750.528a. Prohibition on falsely assuming functions of a peace officer: It is also a crime in Michigan for any person who is not a “peace officer” to “[p]erform the duties of a peace officer.” A “peace officer” includes a sheriff, deputy sheriff, police officer, federal or state law enforcement officer, and security employee, among others. Mich. Comp. laws § 750.215. KitConstantine has issued a correction as of 23:07 on Oct 10, 2020 |
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Oct 10, 2020 22:58
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okay, you can "well actually" the 150 or so militia groups that operate openly all over the US https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_militia_organizations_in_the_United_States
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Oct 10, 2020 23:03
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Flesh Forge posted:okay, you can "well actually" the 150 or so militia groups that operate openly all over the US Neat how them existing openly doesn't make them legal or socially acceptable to be a member of. Gangs exist too, bet you can even find a wikipedia article listing them. Weirdly they don't get this benefit of the doubt though.
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Oct 10, 2020 23:05
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it's like you live in a cartoon or something, just saying "they're illegal!!!" makes them go poof
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Oct 10, 2020 23:07
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ughhhh posted:Also, legal militias still exist. I know NY has a standing milita and several other states do as well. They are called something like NY state guard or something and not associated with the national guard which is part of the reserves. and most of those state militias/guards don't even have weapons. They're basically the backup for the national guard. And the ones that do have weapons training, do it with the national guard, not in jim bob's backyard lol so its not really the same at all as chud militias
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Oct 10, 2020 23:07
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Flesh Forge posted:why do you think commonly-described armed militia were allowed to storm michigan's statehouse unmolested? because the cops themselves are a bunch of white supremacist militia freaks you think they would have let a black militia do that? lol Rah! has issued a correction as of 23:12 on Oct 10, 2020 |
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Oct 10, 2020 23:09
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Flesh Forge posted:it's like you live in a cartoon or something, just saying "they're illegal!!!" makes them go poof Where am I saying they don't exist? This whole discussion is about whether calling them domestic terrorists does anything. If the laws as they exist aren't enforced changing what they are referred to as to something else won't do anything either, and could in fact harm groups that aren't currently illegal, like ANTIFA or BLM. The fact that current laws aren't enforced doesn't change that private militias are loving illegal. The fact that they are almost exclusively populated by chuds gives you a clue why those laws aren't enforced tho.
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Oct 10, 2020 23:10
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Flesh Forge posted:it's like you live in a cartoon or something, just saying "they're illegal!!!" makes them go poof what
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Oct 10, 2020 23:11
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many tens of millions of americans hear "militia" and think "the good guys" and y'all's plan of action is to say well gosh they're just WRONG lmao
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Oct 10, 2020 23:12
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Flesh Forge posted:many tens of millions of americans hear "militia" and think "the good guys" and y'all's plan of action is to say well gosh they're just WRONG lmao and many tens of millions of americans think the exact opposite wow are you saying theyre just WRONG lmao
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Oct 10, 2020 23:12
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really reaching there dude
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Oct 10, 2020 23:13
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Flesh Forge posted:many tens of millions of americans hear "militia" and think "the good guys" and y'all's plan of action is to say well gosh they're just WRONG lmao Many tens of millions of people are loving racist assholes why the gently caress do they get to define anything?
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Oct 10, 2020 23:14
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among themselves, they actually do though, how is this a hard concept to get across?
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Oct 10, 2020 23:15
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what militia are u in
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Oct 10, 2020 23:16
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is it utterly impossible for you to look at anything objectively? are you just not able to do that?
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Oct 10, 2020 23:17
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Flesh Forge posted:among themselves, they actually do though, how is this a hard concept to get across? Why do they get to dictate how everyone else uses the term though? That's my question. Those same people probably wouldn't agree to call those groups domestic terrorists either so switching the terminology wouldn't change their minds anyway, so why do it?
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Oct 10, 2020 23:18
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they don't give a poo poo how YOU use the term, why are you not getting this?
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Oct 10, 2020 23:18
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someone please think of the militias they are hard working american patriots this slander must stop
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Oct 10, 2020 23:18
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Flesh Forge posted:why are you not getting this? lmao 
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Oct 10, 2020 23:19
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KitConstantine posted:Why do they get to dictate how everyone else uses the term though? That's my question.
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Oct 10, 2020 23:20
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Rah! posted:someone please think of the militias how are you getting "that guy supports militias and thinks they are good" from anything I have ever posted? really seriously?
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Oct 10, 2020 23:21
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Flesh Forge posted:they don't give a poo poo how YOU use the term, why are you not getting this? I wasn't aware that everyone in the world had to agree on a thing being bad before it was bad. I still think white supremacists are bad even though they disagree. What's your arguement here?
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Oct 10, 2020 23:21
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consider this another way. do you think it is good when media uses the terms "thug" or "animal" to refer to any given black criminal?
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Oct 10, 2020 23:23
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Flesh Forge posted:many tens of millions of americans hear "militia" and think "the good guys" and y'all's plan of action is to say well gosh they're just WRONG lmao Telling you my plan of action is terrible opsec for starters
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Oct 10, 2020 23:23
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