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pentyne posted:I've always been interested in this subject since they started doing academic studies/papers on the nature of fandoms and how it develops a community that can be devoted fans of the work while simultaneously disliking major core components of the work, aggressively embracing shipping, reading characters as gay/bi/trans, and developed wildly popular 'alternate' readings of the source material. This was probably less about fandom and more about people being intolerant jerks, but one of the most surreal fiction-related moments of my life was tripping over an internet discussion where people were angrily arguing that Cho Chang was a Caucasian Scottish lady.
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Oct 15, 2020 08:14
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Milkfred E. Moore posted:There's a thread over on Spacebattles called Lockers All The Way Down that does the first eight arcs with a critical lens. It was by another web serial writer and I got asked to help out. I'll check it out.
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Oct 15, 2020 10:54
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On the topic of Wildbow, is anyone else reading Pale? I'm enjoying the expansion of the world originally shown in Pact, with far less relentless intensity and some time to breath and learn more about the magic system. Of course its not perfect, half the latest chapter is a largely pointless fight scene for example, but the trio of protagonists are fun and varied so it's not just in one character's head the whole time. Avery is my favourite of the three, both for a related character, and her chosen magical career.
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Oct 15, 2020 11:38
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I cannot handle the dragon names in Cinnamon Bun.
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Oct 15, 2020 15:17
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90s Cringe Rock posted:I cannot handle the dragon names in Cinnamon Bun. I don't get it, even after having been told there's something to get. Please tell me, so I can feel stupid.
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Oct 15, 2020 16:34
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Rhawrexdee = rawrXD Lawlyhoumad = lol umad Nhoyhou = no u Cholondee = ;D
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Oct 15, 2020 16:39
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BadMedic posted:Rhawrexdee = rawrXD That latter is probably just  , really!
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Oct 15, 2020 19:07
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BadMedic posted:Rhawrexdee = rawrXD ugh
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Oct 15, 2020 19:11
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BadMedic posted:Rhawrexdee = rawrXD That would normally annoy me, but here it just seems cute.
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Oct 15, 2020 19:14
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BadMedic posted:Rhawrexdee = rawrXD oh
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Oct 15, 2020 20:33
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Thanks, I hate it. About Worm, I've said it before, but I'll always kind of hate it for how Wildbow writes criminals or poor people in general. It's like he's never met anyone outside of his suburb in his life and its all coming from watching Escape from New York and poo poo.
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Oct 15, 2020 22:34
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Larry Parrish posted:About Worm, I've said it before, but I'll always kind of hate it for how Wildbow writes criminals or poor people in general. It's like he's never met anyone outside of his suburb in his life and its all coming from watching Escape from New York and poo poo. Well, yes. He basically hasn't.
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Oct 15, 2020 22:54
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I read somewhere he was severely hearing damaged for a long time, and it kind of shows when nobody notices thousands of insects flying around indoors. He's also very bad at describing sounds in general. Also, nobody in a position of power can ever be competent.
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Oct 15, 2020 23:01
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Sax Battler posted:Also, nobody in a position of power can ever be competent. well, *points at entire world around us*
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Oct 15, 2020 23:37
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Larry Parrish posted:Thanks, I hate it. It's kind of a one-two combo of disappointment- on one hand, the setting and villain origin story thing are perfect setups to actually go into the socioeconomics of crime in an interesting way and delve into what causes a vulnerable person to get in trouble, and "A middle-class white girl got bullied" is probably the single least-interesting hook he could've used. Between that and the author obviously not having anything to say about the subject, it feels like a big missed opportunity. But the other thing that's just frigging bizarre is how inconsistent the worldbuilding is. For most of Worm I got the impression that it was supposed to be a generic comic book city: run down but holding in there, lots of people just trying to get through their day to day life while green goblin flies around throwing pumpkin bombs at trains from time to time. But then at random points it swerves deep, deep into Escape From New York/Mad Max territory, where they'll just casually go, like, "Remember that time the one mean girl from school almost got kidnapped by Lung's guys and sent to one of the multiple white slavery sex dungeon farms they run just outside city limits, which don't get busted because the authorities have too much on their plates?", or "That guy looked like the security boardwalk stores hired- they really liked throwing homeless kids off buildings and/or raping them if they were caught shoplifting." So it's just, like, holy poo poo guys- what in the actual heck is this setting supposed to be like?
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Oct 16, 2020 00:13
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Sax Battler posted:Also, nobody in a position of power can ever be competent. That's easily the most plausible and realistic thing going on in his work.
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Oct 16, 2020 00:17
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Larry Parrish posted:Thanks, I hate it. As far as I'm aware, Wildbow grew up in Middle of Nowhere, Canada, and hasn't really had much contact with people outside of high school, including his extended family. I believe his reasons for not attending high school have changed over the years. Either way, he's something of a recluse, and it explains why whenever his writing has to handle criminals, poor people, or ethnic minorities, it gets really weird really quickly. Sax Battler posted:I read somewhere he was severely hearing damaged for a long time, and it kind of shows when nobody notices thousands of insects flying around indoors. He's fairly deaf, from what I recall. And, yeah, the most interesting part of Worm is how the sense of hearing is rarely invoked and, when it is, it's either minimal or cliche (he loves using 'a low voice' to mean someone is sounding grim and serious, IIRC.) It's honestly one of the coolest parts of the work, seeing how his deafness is reflected in the text, even if it gets ridiculously goofy with how no one hears the sound of swarming insects, for example, or gunshots and explosions and so on. Omi no Kami posted:But the other thing that's just frigging bizarre is how inconsistent the worldbuilding is. For most of Worm I got the impression that it was supposed to be a generic comic book city: run down but holding in there, lots of people just trying to get through their day to day life while green goblin flies around throwing pumpkin bombs at trains from time to time. But then at random points it swerves deep, deep into Escape From New York/Mad Max territory, where they'll just casually go, like, "Remember that time the one mean girl from school almost got kidnapped by Lung's guys and sent to one of the multiple white slavery sex dungeon farms they run just outside city limits, which don't get busted because the authorities have too much on their plates?", or "That guy looked like the security boardwalk stores hired- they really liked throwing homeless kids off buildings and/or raping them if they were caught shoplifting." Brockton Bay was absolutely, over the first eight arcs, a fairly 'normal' city. Then late Worm has the, yeah, ABB rape camps and whatever just thrown in there as always having existed because Wildbow decided to go really hard on the crazy dystopia aspect of the setting. Similar to how Ward had the bit where, from memory, Glory Girl mentions how a fast food place in Brockton Bay has a mascot of a pig being vivisected or whatever. The problem is that Wildbow doesn't really know how to handle things like crime and race, so you get those weird moments like Grue taking his sister to live down the road from E88's stronghold and there's no concern from anyone, including the black case worker, that maybe two black teenagers wouldn't be safe in the middle of Nazitown? Especially when it's established that members of E88 have killed capes outside of costume before. And let's not mention the bit with the black shop owner who lets Sophia (black) into his store to beat up Taylor (white) and only let Grue (black) into the store because he thought he was going to help beat her up, too. Milkfred E. Moore fucked around with this message at 00:35 on Oct 16, 2020 |
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Oct 16, 2020 00:29
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His understanding of racial tension in America is somewhere between Ed Edd and Eddy style gang hijinks and the bad guys from Robocop.
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Oct 16, 2020 00:49
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Larry Parrish posted:His understanding of racial tension in America is somewhere between Ed Edd and Eddy style gang hijinks and the bad guys from Robocop.
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Oct 16, 2020 11:56
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pentyne posted:That's easily the most plausible and realistic thing going on in his work. Some poeple in the lower exhelons are actually quite competent. In Worm-world, if anyome gets any authority, the lose any competence they have, and everything is always half a step from total collapse.
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Oct 16, 2020 13:45
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So, Katalepsis has a fanart page now, if anybody wants to see what other readers have been drawing.
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Oct 16, 2020 21:52
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Sybot posted:On the topic of Wildbow, is anyone else reading Pale? I'm enjoying the expansion of the world originally shown in Pact, with far less relentless intensity and some time to breath and learn more about the magic system. Of course its not perfect, half the latest chapter is a largely pointless fight scene for example, but the trio of protagonists are fun and varied so it's not just in one character's head the whole time. Avery is my favourite of the three, both for a related character, and her chosen magical career. so far pale is rivaling twig for the (by a substantial margin) best wildbow work in my book
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Oct 17, 2020 08:13
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I lost a bit of respect for Heather in the latest Katalepsis chapter.
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Oct 17, 2020 11:21
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Still slowly plodding through TWI. 6.47 spoilers - Do we find out what Bellavierre's price is for bringing back ivolethe
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Oct 17, 2020 11:54
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tithin posted:Still slowly plodding through TWI. No, because Ryoka doesn't take the deal. That's what we've been told, anyway, and I don't think there's any reason to disbelieve her. Speculation based on later spoilers: Maybe something goes wrong with the other plan to meet Ivolethe, though, and she's forced to reconsider the offer later?
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Oct 17, 2020 12:01
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Well that's a positive. TWI definitely improves the further along you go with it. There's somewhere around book 3 where I just really struggled with continuing with it on a "suspending my disbelief" sort of way, right around the time of the introducing christianity to the antinium This is my second attempt at reading it, I stopped the first time .... around the point I mentioned above
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Oct 17, 2020 12:58
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I honestly think Erin is the worst character lol. Shes just not relatable to me at all. Ryoka is like me if I had zero control over my depressive swings and it makes up for mary sue bullshit, but Erin seriously seems like someone with a mental disability sometimes. Like the recent Rose stuff was a major 'are you loving kidding?' kind of moment. Luckily the Pawn & Religion stuff gets much better.
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Oct 17, 2020 20:05
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tithin posted:Well that's a positive. Eh. Disagree. It starts interesting then becomes sprawling and verbose and frankly worrisome as it goes along. I jumped ship when I was tired of it and have no time or interest in a second pass.
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Oct 17, 2020 22:01
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I stopped reading when I started a Cradle re-read in preparation for Wintersteel. Haven't been able to get back in since. I tried once, and the change in pacing was so jarring -- Cradle is easily an order of magnitude faster in terms of meaningful plot advancement per number of words, maybe even more than that -- that I couldn't go on. It's like when you start a new MMO and they tell you to go get ten rat tails, and not every rat has a tail, and you can just immediately envision the endless cycle of bullshit, the dozens of hours of mostly inane garbage you'll have to wade through to hit the level cap and get into more interesting stuff. That's what it felt like to me: there's some interesting stuff in TWI that I'd like to get to, but like four fifths of the words in the story just shouldn't be there. It's not so bad for some characters, but others *cough* Flos *cough* are simply a pain to read, but I hate skipping content because it might be important later. Though even before Cradle, I had started to look at reading TWI as kind of like a chore, or at least an activity with a substantial chore-like component. I dunno, maybe I'll get back in sometime when I have more time and the sheer volume of words is more a positive than a negative. Cicero fucked around with this message at 23:03 on Oct 17, 2020 |
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Oct 17, 2020 22:59
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Disagree, TWI has fun and interesting characters and that alone makes it fun to read.
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Oct 17, 2020 23:25
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TWI is like reading a slice of life anime. It’s about the journey, plot progression is just a bonus.
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Oct 17, 2020 23:28
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Everything is an order of magnitude faster than TWI, even other slice of life stuff. Plot progression isn't the point, though. I tried reading Cradle once and found it unbearably bad. It was all cliches and completely lacked any subtly, the scifi background exposition dumps were incredibly jarring, the worldbuilding wasn't believable and the characters were thin anime stereotypes.
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Oct 18, 2020 00:20
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Cradle is a much more focused and directed story. There's a goal and deadlines that Lindon has to reach. Not to mention it's a book series that the author has explicitly gone out of his way to keep streamlined, at least until the latest book as an experiment. TWI isn't really a fair comparison. It's a barely-edited web serial, the world is alive. Things are happening, but not for a particular overarching purpose. It's not necessary for things to progress quickly. Personally, the longer the story is, the better for me. Things are still happening, but there's plenty of stopping to smell the roses and experience other character's perspectives. It's definitely a hard recommendation for new or returning readers though, unless they like that sort of thing too. There's a LOT to get through, it's definitely not a story for someone who wants to get through the major story beats quick.
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Oct 18, 2020 01:06
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I don't mind slice of life stuff, but in TWI even that manages to feel slow most of the time.Tom Clancy is Dead posted:Everything is an order of magnitude faster than TWI, even other slice of life stuff. Plot progression isn't the point, though. It IS pretty anime, no doubt, but I still find the writing far superior to TWI, I just wish there was more of it, as each book is fairly short except for the last. TWI has some cool stuff, and I have enjoyed what I've read, but the dialogue is incredibly hamfisted, the plot pacing switches between normal and glacially meandering at a whim, most of the climactic scenes read like fan fiction, Pirate has a bunch of writing tics that they rely on as a crutch (It was the worst. And best.), some of the viewpoint characters are painful or simply boring to read, the number of coincidences connecting viewpoint characters beggars belief, and Erin in particular has insane Mary Sue powers and plot armor (and the aura poo poo feels incredibly out of place). It's really obvious that the reason they're able to pump out so many words is that it's practically an author's stream of consciousness: for being that, it's well written enough, but it's got no shortage of serious flaws. Cicero fucked around with this message at 02:24 on Oct 18, 2020 |
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Oct 18, 2020 02:19
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Tom Clancy is Dead posted:Everything is an order of magnitude faster than TWI, even other slice of life stuff. Plot progression isn't the point, though. Having a dude ride the power escalator at a steady pace (I assume since its a cultivation story) is far less of a problem than a story not knowing what its doing and durdling around for hundreds of thousands of words. It's the Moby Dick vs. DBZ comparison all over again, knowing what is going to happen for 100 chapters seems like much less of a problem than knowing that nothing is going to happen for 100 chapters.
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Oct 18, 2020 02:41
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TWI is a slice of life with the occasional glacial plot thread to keep people trying to convince themselves it's not a slice of life interested.
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Oct 18, 2020 03:24
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I just wish it wasn’t so sprawling. Loads of characters are interesting but they switch perspective so often it’s hard to care. Forge of Destiny was recced here right? I’m about to start reading it . Other quests I’ve read that are very good are Divided Loyalties and Rhunrikki Strollar. Both WH fantasy. And both very good. Especially Rhunrikki which is about a golden age Runelord. Affi fucked around with this message at 13:04 on Oct 18, 2020 |
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Oct 18, 2020 11:29
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Cicero posted:How far did you get? Because this doesn't sound accurate past, like, the first book or so. I read the first two and found nothing interesting or redeeming. quote:I don't mind slice of life stuff, but in TWI even that manages to feel slow most of the time. I agree with all of this. I'm not trying to make this Cradle vs. TWI. I find enough that I like in TWI in the collection of smaller stories it tells to keep reading it despite the flaws. Tom Clancy is Dead fucked around with this message at 19:43 on Oct 18, 2020 |
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Oct 18, 2020 19:41
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Tom Clancy is Dead posted:I read the first two and found nothing interesting or redeeming. Hey no worries, everyone has a few utterly wrong opinions. I’m just glad it’s about something as silly as anime literature and not something important like Trump. You don’t like Trump, do you?
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Oct 18, 2020 19:45
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I mean, book 2 is probably my least favorite so I can understand dropping it there. I did enjoy book 1 even though the series picks up and becomes amazing in book 3. Different strokes for different folks.
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Oct 18, 2020 21:42
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