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cheetah7071 posted:I feel like writing that book might hinder your ability to make promises which people will trust enough to vote for you Cicero's brother was a dude who didn't give a single poo poo, stayed outta politics hung out in his farm, and didn't get brutally purged by Augustus
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Oct 14, 2020 07:59
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cheetah7071 posted:I feel like writing that book might hinder your ability to make promises which people will trust enough to vote for you Gaius Marius posted:Cicero's brother was a dude who didn't give a single poo poo, stayed outta politics hung out in his farm, and didn't get brutally purged by Augustus Yeah, I'm not sure he was trying to help Cicero, per se.
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Oct 14, 2020 18:06
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Gaius Marius posted:Cicero's brother was a dude who didn't give a single poo poo, stayed outta politics hung out in his farm, and didn't get brutally purged by Augustus Didn't Quintus Cicero get proscribed? Unless he had another brother and I'm blanking on it.
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Oct 14, 2020 18:28
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Yeah the wiki suggests Quintus did not have such an easy time of it:quote:During the Second Triumvirate, when the Roman Republic was again in civil war, Quintus, his son, and his brother, were all proscribed. He fled from Tusculum with his brother. Later Quintus went home to bring back money for travelling expenses. His son, Quintus minor, hid his father, and did not reveal the hiding place although he was tortured. When Quintus heard this, he gave himself up to try and save his son; however, both father and son, and his famous brother, were all killed in 43 BC, as proscribed persons.
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Oct 14, 2020 18:40
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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Wasn't education in most of the ancient Greek world private? Like, the education of young boys was left to slaves or tutors and basically at the discretion of families? I've always heard Sparta stood out for having a state-run educational system.
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Oct 15, 2020 05:12
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NikkolasKing posted:I've always heard Sparta stood out for having a state-run educational system. It was more like a state run indoctrination system. You learned to be loyal to Sparta and that killing was good. And that was pretty much it
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Oct 15, 2020 10:18
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Athenians had something like schools, the gymnasia. They were also something like state-run, the supervisors (gymnasiarchs) were public officials. And there were also the major philosophical schools though those were fairly different from what we would think of as a school nowadays. Among Romans, you have teachers but not so much schools. Teachers apparently just set up shop wherever they could and taught whoever showed up and paid.
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Oct 15, 2020 12:49
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skasion posted:Athenians had something like schools, the gymnasia. They were also something like state-run, the supervisors (gymnasiarchs) were public officials. And there were also the major philosophical schools though those were fairly different from what we would think of as a school nowadays. One of the ways to get your kids an education in Rome is to become a client of a rich guy who has a tutor for his own children who will provide an education for some of those of his clients. The client-patron relationship was really important in the upper strata of Roman society and gets underplayed a bit I think in popular media about it.
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Oct 15, 2020 14:31
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If I ever become a PE teacher I will insist on being referred to as a gymnasiarch
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Oct 15, 2020 14:59
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Panzeh posted:One of the ways to get your kids an education in Rome is to become a client of a rich guy who has a tutor for his own children who will provide an education for some of those of his clients. The client-patron relationship was really important in the upper strata of Roman society and gets underplayed a bit I think in popular media about it. afaik at least in the city itself it worked its way down into the lower classes too, since those clients of the upper strata had their own clients among the lower classes
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Oct 15, 2020 15:54
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Didn’t HBO/bbc Rome show a bit of the client patron relationship ?
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Oct 15, 2020 15:55
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yeah, the show played with the historical narrative, but it is hands down the most accurate depiction of how Rome actually was. The clothing, armor, weapons, buildings, etc are all bang on accurate, and it nails poo poo like how prevalent advertising was, how weird some of their customs were, and how everyday people lived.
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Oct 15, 2020 16:22
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WoodrowSkillson posted:yeah, the show played with the historical narrative, but it is hands down the most accurate depiction of how Rome actually was. The clothing, armor, weapons, buildings, etc are all bang on accurate, and it nails poo poo like how prevalent advertising was, how weird some of their customs were, and how everyday people lived. How Roman kids didn't age....
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Oct 15, 2020 16:25
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moving graffiti
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Oct 15, 2020 18:52
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WoodrowSkillson posted:yeah, the show played with the historical narrative, but it is hands down the most accurate depiction of how Rome actually was. The clothing, armor, weapons, buildings, etc are all bang on accurate, and it nails poo poo like how prevalent advertising was, how weird some of their customs were, and how everyday people lived. The fat dude making the announcement is the best character in the whole show. I dare you to change my mind.
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Oct 15, 2020 19:04
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Dalael posted:The fat dude making the announcement is the best character in the whole show. I dare you to change my mind. I hear that you can still meet his like today any time you find an old italian man drinking and opining.
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Oct 15, 2020 19:55
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WoodrowSkillson posted:afaik at least in the city itself it worked its way down into the lower classes too, since those clients of the upper strata had their own clients among the lower classes Would you say ... it trickled down?
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Oct 15, 2020 20:00
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skasion posted:Athenians had something like schools, the gymnasia. They were also something like state-run, the supervisors (gymnasiarchs) were public officials. And there were also the major philosophical schools though those were fairly different from what we would think of as a school nowadays. Roman schooling for most of those who received was exceptionally awful, basically "what not to do" from the perspectives of pedagogy. I'm genuinely at loss for a worse system of schooling.
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Oct 15, 2020 22:58
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euphronius posted:Didn’t HBO/bbc Rome show a bit of the client patron relationship ? Rome sorta gets into it though it doesn't really have time while it's dealing with the story of Caesar and Pompey- Vorenus and Pullo's relationships with Antony and Octavian respectively could be said to be client-patron. Someone like Vorenus would probably have some clients himself.
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Oct 15, 2020 23:00
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Lawman 0 posted:Roman schooling for most of those who received was exceptionally awful, basically "what not to do" from the perspectives of pedagogy. I mean, those wax writey things they used were p.cool? 
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Oct 15, 2020 23:01
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Panzeh posted:Rome sorta gets into it though it doesn't really have time while it's dealing with the story of Caesar and Pompey- Vorenus and Pullo's relationships with Antony and Octavian respectively could be said to be client-patron. Someone like Vorenus would probably have some clients himself. He does, there's at least one scene where he's shown meeting with them
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Oct 15, 2020 23:07
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Dalael posted:The fat dude making the announcement is the best character in the whole show. I dare you to change my mind.
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Oct 15, 2020 23:14
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Lawman 0 posted:Roman schooling for most of those who received was exceptionally awful, basically "what not to do" from the perspectives of pedagogy. It suited its purposes well enough as far as we can tell. When sweeping change finally did occur it was not because people thought it didn’t work, but because the things that it did work at were seen as increasingly undesirable in the Christian imperial world. If your argument is that pay to play, rote memorization, extemporaneous composition in set styles, and getting regularly beaten by your teacher sound unpleasant, I agree, but those raised in the system seem to have taken this with equanimity, and its shortcomings do not seem to have prevented some people from getting to be very well-read. Both these things could also be said of our own advanced modern pedagogical systems churning out uncritical dipshits by the truckload at enormous expense. Depending on what you count as education, I think there’s also something to be said for the Tang examination system where you get to piss away all the money you have (and then some) in a usually futile attempt to make professional connections at the parties of high-end hookers.
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Oct 15, 2020 23:25
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PhDs not getting high paying work and children being beaten if they can't memorize the Aeneid: basically the same
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Oct 15, 2020 23:40
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Justifying continued abuse of the next generation because it's similar to the abuse your generation got is pretty common.Lawman 0 posted:Roman schooling for most of those who received was exceptionally awful, basically "what not to do" from the perspectives of pedagogy. That one kid that an emperor decided to raise without language as an experiment?
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Oct 16, 2020 00:33
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I mean, Augustine would agree. He writes in his Confessions how he thinks its unjust he was beaten as a kid in school for childhood misbehavior and gossip by adults who behaved worse and gossiped more, and how, while he loved learning Latin, hated learning Greek (and realized that Greek kids probably hated learning Latin just as badly). That being said, rote memorization and beatings have been fairly common components of education through history, as ineffective as they might be. I graduated HS about 25 years ago, and I still remember some of Shakespeare's soliloquies they made me memorize. And I have friends who went to private schools where the paddle was applied pretty regularly. So, plus ca change and all that...
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Oct 16, 2020 00:35
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Rote memorization works in that it will ingrain on you the material they want you to memorize. It doesn't work in that often the raw material you crammed into your brain often isn't very useful on its own if you haven't learned how to use it properly. Like you can memorize math formulas and pi digits, but what matters is whether you can use the bits. There's a whole thing where as time goes on we have more tools to use to avoid having to remember everything on its own. Memorizing poems word for word is handy in 400 BC, but not so much in 2000 AD, when you could easily keep multiple written copies on hand in addition to having access to a forest of information in computers throughout the world. But memorization is the easiest thing to test on, so a lot of educational systems like to emphasize it just for the sake of creating a thing that can be measured, much like how many historical medicines were things like emetics and laxatives, because proving you did something is more important than proving that you did the right thing.
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Oct 16, 2020 00:50
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Epicurius posted:I mean, Augustine would agree. He writes in his Confessions how he thinks its unjust he was beaten as a kid in school for childhood misbehavior and gossip by adults who behaved worse and gossiped more, and how, while he loved learning Latin, hated learning Greek (and realized that Greek kids probably hated learning Latin just as badly). It wasn't just Augustine who disliked the prevalent educational methods, IIRC; I remember some earlier Roman or Roman-era-Greek writer (Cicero? Pliny the Younger? Marcus Aurelius?) remarking how grateful he was that he was educated in a fairly nonstandard way.
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Oct 16, 2020 01:27
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I think it was aurelius in his mediations
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Oct 16, 2020 01:30
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Silver2195 posted:It wasn't just Augustine who disliked the prevalent educational methods, IIRC; I remember some earlier Roman or Roman-era-Greek writer (Cicero? Pliny the Younger? Marcus Aurelius?) remarking how grateful he was that he was educated in a fairly nonstandard way. Augustine was just the first one who came to mind. He spent a lot of time in the first book of Confessions complaining about it, and giving as an alternative an educational system where the kid is encouraged to learn.
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Oct 16, 2020 01:35
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I would rather be beaten than have to get a PhD in 2020 tbh.
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Oct 16, 2020 04:16
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So does anyone here know much about the famous Chines exam system? I would assume it evolved a lot between dynasties and such but it's often talked about like it stayed relatively consistent since the Han, which seems unlikely. It's also often talked about like it was mostly rote memorization of the classics, which seems very likely.
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Oct 16, 2020 19:18
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galagazombie posted:So does anyone here know much about the famous Chines exam system? I would assume it evolved a lot between dynasties and such but it's often talked about like it stayed relatively consistent since the Han, which seems unlikely. It's also often talked about like it was mostly rote memorization of the classics, which seems very likely. Han bureaucratic recruitment didn't use an exam for personnel. Making these sort of evaluations of people (and livestock) is the topic of several texts dating to the Han-Tang interregnum from which we have excerpts and citations (i don't think we have any excavated manuscripts, or transmitted texts in their entirety from this era). The Tang bureaucratic exams instituted under Empress Wu are generally considered to be the earliest incarnation of the examination system, but there's strong reason to believe that her intentions were more about creating a new class of bureaucrats loyal to her, than it was about finding the most qualified candidates. The trope of the luckless scholar, trying his luck at the metropolitan exam each chance he gets doesn't evolve until much later-- the earliest example I can remember is a Yuan dyansty drama involving one of these sorts of characters.
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Oct 16, 2020 22:16
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Reminded of the old British comp school genre with all its casual abuse, rote memorisation and generally making an effort to beat every piece of independent thought and empathy out of its students. Seems a common thing in general with empires, you need your future colonial enforcers to be uncreative and brutal. Having a facade of meritocracy that doubles to lend legitimacy to the perpetuation of the ruling class also helps.
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Oct 19, 2020 06:46
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Everything I've read about Roman education made it sound almost identical to what I experienced of the local education systems while teaching in Asia. Less beating and it was in classrooms instead of tutors, but otherwise.
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Oct 19, 2020 06:52
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Almond Crunch posted:Han bureaucratic recruitment didn't use an exam for personnel. Making these sort of evaluations of people (and livestock) is the topic of several texts dating to the Han-Tang interregnum from which we have excerpts and citations (i don't think we have any excavated manuscripts, or transmitted texts in their entirety from this era). The Tang bureaucratic exams instituted under Empress Wu are generally considered to be the earliest incarnation of the examination system, but there's strong reason to believe that her intentions were more about creating a new class of bureaucrats loyal to her, than it was about finding the most qualified candidates. The trope of the luckless scholar, trying his luck at the metropolitan exam each chance he gets doesn't evolve until much later-- the earliest example I can remember is a Yuan dyansty drama involving one of these sorts of characters. I don't know a ton about the Tang Dynasty, but I do know that the Tang poet Li He was supposed to be a child prodigy, and went off to write the Imperial Examination aged 20, but was prevented from doing so at the last minute because his father's name was too similar to the name of the exam. He then went home, wrote tons of well-regarded but super angsty poetry (much of which his mom threw down a toilet), and died of tuberculosis at age 27. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li_He#Political_career So he may be a bit of a prototype of the trope of the luckless scholar.
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Oct 19, 2020 07:07
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Lead out in cuffs posted:I don't know a ton about the Tang Dynasty, but I do know that the Tang poet Li He was supposed to be a child prodigy, and went off to write the Imperial Examination aged 20, but was prevented from doing so at the last minute because his father's name was too similar to the name of the exam. He then went home, wrote tons of well-regarded but super angsty poetry (much of which his mom threw down a toilet), and died of tuberculosis at age 27. Sounds like a rock star, complete with dying at 27.
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Oct 19, 2020 12:10
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Reminded of the old British comp school genre with all its casual abuse, rote memorisation and generally making an effort to beat every piece of independent thought and empathy out of its students. Seems a common thing in general with empires, you need your future colonial enforcers to be uncreative and brutal. Having a facade of meritocracy that doubles to lend legitimacy to the perpetuation of the ruling class also helps. This isn't a "schools of empire" thing and more just a "how you teach discipline children pre-1950ish" thing. You don't have to look far at all in non-Empire, non-totalitarian school systems to find rote memorization, instruction given from the front of the classroom in a lecture format, and tons of what we would today recognize as physical and mental abuse as disciplinary tools. Basically public education as we recognize it today is a product of 19th century Europe and the United States*, and a lot of the pedagogical techniques that emerged were essentially people grappling with the problem of how you give the largest number of people the basic tools to function in a modern, industrial society. Just teaching basic literacy and numeracy to the entire population is a huge thing, and standing at the front of the room and having one teacher walk a room full of 30+ students through rote grammar and arithmetic is a functional way to do that. You'll have what we would today consider an unacceptable number of students who that doesn't work for, but it's enough to get poo poo of the ground. As for the beatings, the idea that you shouldn't hit kids for misbehavior is something that really only became assumed the last 100 years, and not universally so. Like, poo poo, my parents aren't that old but when they were kids in the 50s it was considered a normal thing for someone's dad to smack them around a bit if they were misbehaving. Note that all of that doesn't go un-challenged as the modern, mass educational systems develop. You pretty quickly have some alternative models emerging, and by the beginning of the 20th century there are a lot of alternative and experimental educational methods being developed and championed by people like Montessori and Steiner. *as an aside I would argue far more Europe than the US. Most American educators were taking their cues from Europeans during this period, and a lot of systems were very consciously modeled on European ones. That said, you do have a fair bit of domestic American ideas emerging in New England especially, and some of that filters back the other way. It's not a 100% mono-directional thing, but it's certainly weighted towards the European end of things at least through to 1900. Even as late as the outbreak of WW1 people trying to build and reform educational systems in the US tended to go to Europe to look for new innovations, rather than other American states.
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Oct 19, 2020 14:33
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I just got done listening to Mike Duncan's "Storm before the Storm." Sulla was a smart man, how could he have thought that after all his actions that the Republic would just go back to following the law rather than powerful men just doing whatever they could get away with?
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Oct 20, 2020 02:46
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Sulla was a dumb prick
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Oct 20, 2020 03:18
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