politically-loaded maps: sputtering flemishly

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > politically-loaded maps: sputtering flemishly

Numerical Anxiety: Sep 2, 2011; Hello.

FreudianSlippers posted:

The Icelanders mostly brutally murdered any Basques they caught, stripped their bodies and threw them into the sea because it was against the law for any non-Danish people to do business in or near Iceland.

It's probably been posted in this thead before, but lest one forget, the decree that mandated that any Basque in Iceland be killed on sight was revoked only in 2015 .

# ? Oct 18, 2020 20:37

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# ? Jun 4, 2024 21:12

Phlegmish: Jul 2, 2011

Numerical Anxiety posted:

It's probably been posted in this thead before, but lest one forget, the decree that mandated that any Basque in Iceland be killed on sight was revoked only in 2015 .

It's been posted before but I want to know about the very last time it came into play

# ? Oct 18, 2020 20:38

PittTheElder: Feb 13, 2012; Yes, it's like a lava lamp.

RagnarokZ posted:

Canada's had a few haven't they?

Depends what you want to count, but Canadian statehood has certainly included political violence, even leaving out pre-BNA Act conflicts and various genocides against the natives, etc.

# ? Oct 18, 2020 20:43

Edgar Allen Ho: Apr 3, 2017; by sebmojo

HookShot posted:

No.

1837-38 arguably counts, depending on where you put the line between rebellion and civil war. Notably the vast majority of the combatants were actual canadians and not british regulars.

# ? Oct 18, 2020 20:46

FreudianSlippers: Apr 12, 2010; Shooting and Fucking
are the same thing!

The Icelandic wizard and naturalist Jón the Learned was cast into exile in the early 17th century because he recorded a notable massacre of Basques (that he was friendly with before they were murdered) called Spánverjavígin or the Spaniard Slayings. Him selling grimoires and teaching magic to anyone interested also played a part. If this had been a couple of decades later when the Burning Age started he would've been executed.

Sjón's historical novel mentioned in the article is heavily based on Jón with some slight differences for drama.

FreudianSlippers fucked around with this message at 20:51 on Oct 18, 2020

# ? Oct 18, 2020 20:49

HookShot: Dec 26, 2005

Edgar Allen Ho posted:

1837-38 arguably counts, depending on where you put the line between rebellion and civil war. Notably the vast majority of the combatants were actual canadians and not british regulars.

Well for me that doesn't count because it was an act by "Canadians" (remembering Canada did not exist as a country then) against a colonial regime, and the British military was the one that crushed the rebellions. That would be like counting the American revolutionary war as being a civil war, which I don't consider it to be, either.

# ? Oct 18, 2020 20:51

A Buttery Pastry: Sep 4, 2011; Delicious and Informative!

HookShot posted:

Well for me that doesn't count because it was an act by "Canadians" (remembering Canada did not exist as a country then) against a colonial regime, and the British military was the one that crushed the rebellions. That would be like counting the American revolutionary war as being a civil war, which I don't consider it to be, either.

The American revolutionary war was part of a long period of instability in the Anglo Empire, lasting from 1776 until reunification in 2037.

# ? Oct 18, 2020 20:59

SlothfulCobra: Mar 27, 2011

When the irish under British dominion fought the canadians under British dominion, does that count as a civil war?

# ? Oct 18, 2020 21:10

Phlegmish: Jul 2, 2011

HookShot posted:

Well for me that doesn't count because it was an act by "Canadians" (remembering Canada did not exist as a country then) against a colonial regime, and the British military was the one that crushed the rebellions. That would be like counting the American revolutionary war as being a civil war, which I don't consider it to be, either.

It kind of was, a large portion of the American-born settlers were loyalists, and many of them moved to Canada later.

There's no objective definition of what constitutes a civil war, anyway.

# ? Oct 18, 2020 21:16

PittTheElder: Feb 13, 2012; Yes, it's like a lava lamp.

Yeah the American Revolution was absolutely a civil war between the Loyalists and Revolutionaries, in addition to the state level conflict between Congress and Britain.

# ? Oct 18, 2020 21:27

SlothfulCobra: Mar 27, 2011

Honestly if you put it like that, revolution is just a subset of civil war with a fancy name.

# ? Oct 18, 2020 21:36

HBar: Sep 13, 2007

Milo and POTUS posted:

Did something change with google earth recently? I've got the standalone version and a bunch of 3d stuff stopped... 3ding. Meanwhile the citadel de quebec is about 300 feet above the surrounding area.

Turn on the Terrain layer. It sounds like you only have 3D Buildings checked, but there are a lot more buildings included in the terrain layer and it'll make the rest of the ground rise up to meet the citadel model.

# ? Oct 18, 2020 23:37

Platystemon: Feb 13, 2012; BREADS

SlothfulCobra posted:

Honestly if you put it like that, revolution is just a subset of civil war with a fancy name.

A revolution is a civil war won that the existing central government loses.

# ? Oct 18, 2020 23:45

Orange Devil: Oct 1, 2010; Wullie's reign cannae smother the flames o' equality!

Phlegmish posted:

I thought they were basically independent at this point

Can't even do colonialism right

You do not, in fact, gotta hand it to Belgium.

# ? Oct 19, 2020 00:11

SlothfulCobra: Mar 27, 2011

Platystemon posted:

A revolution is a civil war won that the existing central government loses.

Does that mean that the Spanish Civil War is a revolution?

# ? Oct 19, 2020 01:56

ToxicAcne: May 25, 2014

SlothfulCobra posted:

Does that mean that the Spanish Civil War is a revolution?

Some Anarchist authors I've read refer to it as the Spanish Revolution, but not for the reasons that the poster above mentioned. I think that revolution is best defined as the total upend of the structures and institutions of a country in a short period of time.

# ? Oct 19, 2020 02:25

Xelkelvos: Dec 19, 2012

A Civil war requires a separate and formally organized entity to have formed in opposition of the original state. A Revolution does not need the organized part.

# ? Oct 19, 2020 02:35

Starks: Sep 24, 2006

SlothfulCobra posted:

Honestly if you put it like that, revolution is just a subset of civil war with a fancy name.

Is anything called a revolution any more? I noticed during the Arab Spring that anglo media at the very least seems to actively avoid that word.

# ? Oct 19, 2020 02:36

Milo and POTUS: Sep 3, 2017; I will not shut up about the Mighty Morphin Power Rangers. I talk about them all the time and work them into every conversation I have. I built a shrine in my room for the yellow one who died because sadly no one noticed because she died around 9/11. Wanna see it?

Phlegmish posted:

It's been posted before but I want to know about the very last time it came into play

A very diplomatically embarrassing situation in 2014

# ? Oct 19, 2020 02:42

Fojar38: Sep 2, 2011; Sorry I meant to say I hope that the police use maximum force and kill or maim a bunch of innocent people, thus paving a way for a proletarian uprising and socialist utopia

also here's a stupid take
---------------------------->

"Revolution" fell out of favor as a word to use in part thanks to the 20th century's less than stellar track record regarding the results of successful government overthrows combined with the word being almost completely co-opted by the various flavors of Marxism.

# ? Oct 19, 2020 02:44

Edgar Allen Ho: Apr 3, 2017; by sebmojo

I�d argue that revolutions (and counter-revolutions) are a separate thing, not necessarily but often tied to civil and independence wars. And also that civil and independence wars often happen simultaneously.

Like the US, haitian, and spanish-american independence wars were, simultaneously, revolutions, civil wars, independence wars, and continuations of existing conflicts in the mother countries.

Edgar Allen Ho fucked around with this message at 02:58 on Oct 19, 2020

# ? Oct 19, 2020 02:55

Starks: Sep 24, 2006

HookShot posted:

Well for me that doesn't count because it was an act by "Canadians" (remembering Canada did not exist as a country then) against a colonial regime, and the British military was the one that crushed the rebellions. That would be like counting the American revolutionary war as being a civil war, which I don't consider it to be, either.

How about the Northwest rebellion then?

# ? Oct 19, 2020 03:00

Platystemon: Feb 13, 2012; BREADS

Mike Duncan posted:

The word �revolution� is one of those words you think you know the definition of, until you actually start trying to define it. Then, it turns out to be a very slippery fish.

Because first of all the word �revolution�, coined by Copernicus in 1543, is supposed to mean completing an orbit, coming full circle. But the kind of revolution we�re talking about is the opposite of that. It�s a sudden, radical change, overthrowing the old regime and replacing it with a new one. It�s not about coming full circle; it�s about boldly setting out on a new path. So, right away, the word doesn�t even mean what it�s supposed to mean, and it only gets muddier from there.

Because even overlooking the utter absurdity of using the word �revolution� to describe a fundamental change in political organization, we still have a hard time expressing precisely what we mean by �revolution�.

We know it involves overthrowing the existing regime, but we also know that it�s more than a mere coup. We know it involves a conflict between two competing forces within a country, but we also know that it�s more than a mere civil war. We know it involves mass mobilization, but we also know that it�s also more than some half‐baked peasant revolt. It�s more organized, more directed, more thoughtful. Isn�t it?

Well, sometimes yes, and sometimes really no. As it turns out, distinguishing coups from civil wars from revolts from revolutions is a very sticky proposition. Indeed, for each of the revolutions we are going to cover in this series, there is a contingent of revisionist historians ready to argue that no revolution in fact took place, that it was just a rebellion masquerading as a revolution. Because, look, the revolutionary effects were neither as wide nor as deep as once supposed, or only a narrow band of socioeconomic elites actually participated, or no one at the time actually thought that they were engaged in a revolution.

But the problem is that when we add up all of those particular reinterpretations, we�re left with the very unsatisfying notion that in all of human history, no revolution has in fact ever taken place, and that just seems� not right.

With that in mind, this series is based on a broad definition of what counts as a revolution. The Encyclopedia of Political Revolutions, dealing with this same problem, casts a wide net, by including events that share two characteristics. One, irregular procedures aimed at forcing political change within a society, and two, lasting effects on the political system of the society in which they occurred.

But I�d like to get a touch more specific than that, because it�s not enough to have a cabal of elites force their way into power�that�s a coup�and it�s not enough to have an amorphous blob of angry peasants marching around with clubs and axes�that�s a revolt, or maybe an insurrection. So sociologist Charles Tilly narrows the definition a little further, down to �a forcible transfer of power over a state, in the course of which at least two distinct blocs of contenders make incompatible claims to control the state, and some significant portion of the population subject to the state�s jurisdiction acquiesces in the claims of each bloc�, which is jumbled because, well, he�s a sociologist, but, basically, we need some cross‐class alliance of dissidents to overthrow an existing regime by extralegal means and then alter the political system in some fundamental way.

Where it starts to get messy is when further wrinkles are added. Theda Skocpol, for example, creates a super‐class, called �social revolutions� that require changes to the political structure to be accompanied and reinforced by deep changes in the social structure.

Now, this is perfectly reasonable, but it leaves us grappling with difficult and ultimately subjective questions like �how much change?� and �for how many people?� and �for how long?� and �how do we even measure it?�These are the kinds of questions that academics will be arguing about forever as new evidence is uncovered and old evidence is reexamined, and which I plan to neatly sidestep. Don�t get me wrong; we�ll get into it, but I have no intention of adhering to some strict analytic criteria and then casually tossing away events like the Mexican Revolution because not enough hectares of land were ultimately redistributed to make it a really real revolution.

So, for me, if it walks like a duck, and it talks like a duck, it�s probably a revolution.

# ? Oct 19, 2020 04:01

King Hong Kong: Nov 6, 2009; For we'll fight with a vim
that is dead sure to win.

The word �revolution� predates Copernicus. Augustine used �revolutiones� in The City of God and the OED even cites its use in English with the meaning of �change� in the fifteenth century.

Glad to know the standard bearer of pop history podcasts can�t even make it a few sentences without bottling it.

King Hong Kong fucked around with this message at 08:10 on Oct 19, 2020

# ? Oct 19, 2020 04:49

Kassad: Nov 12, 2005; It's about time.

Edgar Allen Ho posted:

I’d argue that revolutions (and counter-revolutions) are a separate thing, not necessarily but often tied to civil and independence wars. And also that civil and independence wars often happen simultaneously.

Yes, France had a few revolutions that didn't lead to civil wars, like in 1830 and 1848. On both occasions, the monarch was forced out after a few days. Although it's true that society wasn't upended as thoroughly as in 1789.

# ? Oct 19, 2020 06:48

Milo and POTUS: Sep 3, 2017; I will not shut up about the Mighty Morphin Power Rangers. I talk about them all the time and work them into every conversation I have. I built a shrine in my room for the yellow one who died because sadly no one noticed because she died around 9/11. Wanna see it?

HBar posted:

Turn on the Terrain layer. It sounds like you only have 3D Buildings checked, but there are a lot more buildings included in the terrain layer and it'll make the rest of the ground rise up to meet the citadel model.

Oh my god you mother loving wizard. I must have turned it off to try to improve my streaming or browsing.

# ? Oct 19, 2020 09:05

FreudianSlippers: Apr 12, 2010; Shooting and Fucking
are the same thing!

Basically every country in Europe had a revolution in 1848.

# ? Oct 19, 2020 12:27

BonHair: Apr 28, 2007

Fojar38 posted:

"Revolution" fell out of favor as a word to use in part thanks to the 20th century's less than stellar track record regarding the results of successful government overthrows combined with the word being almost completely co-opted by the various flavors of Marxism.

How about the velvet revolution in Czechia?

But yeah, revolutions are probably like pornography: I can't define it, but I know it when I see it. Also there are tons of edge cases.

# ? Oct 19, 2020 12:31

Phlegmish: Jul 2, 2011

However for some reason STEP moms tend to be more involved in the latter than the former

# ? Oct 19, 2020 12:52

SlothfulCobra: Mar 27, 2011

I don't get why people are so certain that they'll know porn when they see it when there's a lot of fetish material that gets away by being unrecognizable to people without the fetish.

# ? Oct 19, 2020 16:50

A Buttery Pastry: Sep 4, 2011; Delicious and Informative!

SlothfulCobra posted:

I don't get why people are so certain that they'll know porn when they see it when there's a lot of fetish material that gets away by being unrecognizable to people without the fetish.

Mods, please ban this filth.

# ? Oct 19, 2020 17:18

Groda: Mar 17, 2005; Hair Elf

BonHair posted:

How about the velvet revolution in Czechia?

Stop trying to make Czechia a thing.

# ? Oct 19, 2020 17:20

Phlegmish: Jul 2, 2011

Groda posted:

Stop trying to make Czechia a thing.

It's the recommended English name now, you dinosaur.

Czech Republic was stupid anyway, why not the French Republic instead of France too

# ? Oct 19, 2020 17:28

Guavanaut: Nov 27, 2009; Looking At Them Tittys
1969 - 1998; Toilet Rascal

Koria.

# ? Oct 19, 2020 17:36

Grevling: Dec 18, 2016

It's pretty unfair to the oppressed Moravians and Silesians imo.

# ? Oct 19, 2020 17:39

Weembles: Apr 19, 2004

Phlegmish posted:

It's the recommended English name now, you dinosaur.

Czech Republic was stupid anyway, why not the French Republic instead of France too

The Czech naming discourse is almost as fun as the arguments that come up when someone writes "The Ukraine."

# ? Oct 19, 2020 17:45

System Metternich: Feb 28, 2010; But what did he mean by that?

Czechia is confusing to me as a German speaker because for some reason my first thought is to mentally translate it as "Tschechei" which is a politically incorrect name that fell out of favour in the 90s instead of the proper (and official) German name "Tschechien"

# ? Oct 19, 2020 17:46