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mila kunis posted:Weird how you fail to mention they were chased into and trapped in that building by loving mobs that were shooting into them, firing flares, and bloodily beating people that tried to escape. This was a pogrom with direct video evidence, this thread has some loving horrifying victim blaming.  (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 20, 2020 15:14
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mila kunis posted:Weird how you fail to mention they were chased into and trapped in that building by loving mobs that were shooting into them, firing flares, and bloodily beating people that tried to escape. This was a pogrom with direct video evidence, this thread has some loving horrifying victim blaming. The clashes started when the paramilitarized pro-Russian mob attacking Ukrainian football fans killing several of them, who then in turn organized to fight back and pushed them back in violent clashes. The pro-russian "leftists and trade union activists" were titushkis organized to fuel violence and clashes. It's bad that the situation got to that and that the fire started and killed people, and I am sure there were innocent people not involved with organized paramilitary formations, just to be clear. But to frame it as evil Ukrainian hordes starting a pogrom against some peaceful activists sure is something and has nothing to do with reality. Decent rundown for the audience: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27275383 If you want to spew bullshit lies that are easily disprovable you'll have to find a thread not full of Eastern europeans who actually know what happened BTW, you didn't answer so I'll repeat -- how concerned are you with Russia's involvement in organizing and supporting these violent formations to spill blood and give a cause for invading Ukraine, or are you batting for pretty much anything as long as it vaguely aligns with russian foreign policy and a chance to frame Ukrainians as neonazi monsters? Somaen fucked around with this message at 16:00 on Oct 20, 2020 |
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Oct 20, 2020 15:45
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Somaen posted:The clashes started when the paramilitarized pro-Russian mob attacking Ukrainian football fans killing several of them, who then in turn organized to fight back and pushed them back in violent clashes. The pro-russian "leftists and trade union activists" were titushkis organized to fuel violence and clashes. It's bad that the situation got to that and that the fire started and killed people, and I am sure many of them were innocent people not involved with organized paramilitary formations, just to be clear. But to frame it as evil Ukrainian hordes starting a pogrom against some peaceful activists sure is something and has nothing to do with reality. And I'll repeat myself since this going in circles: people were trapped into a building by a right wing nationalist mob, and shot at, jeered and beaten as they tried to escape a building on fire. This was absolutely a loving pogrom and there's no other way to frame it. None of that is 'bullshit lies', all of it is clearly visible since this event was recorded from multiple angles, and this thread is a reactionary haven in this forum where murder is justified because they were russian fifth columnists who had it coming.
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Oct 20, 2020 16:03
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mila kunis posted:And I'll repeat myself since this going in circles: people were trapped into a building by a right wing nationalist mob, and shot at, jeered and beaten as they tried to escape a building on fire. This was absolutely a loving pogrom and there's no other way to frame it. None of that is 'bullshit lies', all of it is clearly visible since this event was recorded from multiple angles, and this thread is a reactionary haven in this forum where murder is justified because they were russian fifth columnists who had it coming. So do you feel like repeating this garbage narrative makes it more convincing to anyone? Yes indeed it was recoded and there is video evidence to disprove your bullshit lies, for example see here starting from 6 minute, people are out on the edge of the first floor and the Ukrainians are giving them some scaffolding so that they can get down safely, the people around are telling others not to hurt them: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CB6axlE-sRQ
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Oct 20, 2020 16:14
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There was recently a comics exhibition in Serbia with "provocative" art (dead babies). Organizers received death threats to which police didn't react. The exhibition got raided by masked nationalists who destroyed it and threw tear gas. The Serbian Ministry of culture reacted by saying that they condemn violence (short part of the statement) but that the exhibition never should have taken place because it's degenerate art by people with sick minds (much longer part). This reminded me of the treatment of art in Nazi Germany and early Soviet union. I'd like to mix a nazi quote, a Soviet one, and the 2020 Serbian quote as a quiz - can you tell which is which. Does anyone have actual Soviet or nazi quotes from that period? I'm reading "Degenerate art : the fate of the avant-garde in Nazi Germany" so I hope to find fitting nazi quotes there, but I don't have a similar source for Soviets. I don't speak German or Russian, sadly.
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Oct 20, 2020 16:23
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Good news for change: Marx Lenin is headed to Russia I'm sure this will start the demise of capitalism just like 103 years ago when Lenin arrived to Petrograd 
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Oct 20, 2020 17:23
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Somaen posted:So do you feel like repeating this garbage narrative makes it more convincing to anyone? You might have picked a bad video, because ~20 seconds in a man says, 'guys, guys, we gotta drag this closer over there and loving burn them all'. Later on you can hear multiple people shouting, 'set the building on fire' and similar stuff. At 2:04 you can see a molotov being chucked at the building, and only after that someone also tosses something burning from the roof. Although subtitles say it's a molotov, I have my doubts because it falls slower than a glass bottle would. On 2:31 you can see a man beating someone who's just jumped out of the burning building with a stick. Only when the police arrive they seem to start helping people. And even then you can hear multiple people taunting victims (on 5:10 a man says, 'what, fucker, you can't breath now, can you?', at 8:13 another says, 'welcome to Odessa, Moscovites'). There are also people throughout the video who encourage others not to throw stuff at people in the windows, and generally help, but there are also obviously people throwing stuff. The point is none of the bad guys responsible for the fire were punished, and some now even hold government positions. Yes, Russia obviously had a hand in the tragedy, but it doesn't mean that people literally burning 'separatists' alive should get away with it scot-free. E: \/\/\/ added some stuff to my post. My overall point stands. Those 'enraged' football fans should be in prison. Paladinus fucked around with this message at 18:44 on Oct 20, 2020 |
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Oct 20, 2020 18:22
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Paladinus posted:You might have picked a bad video, because ~20 seconds in a man says, 'guys, guys, we gotta drag this closer over there and loving burn them all'. Later on you can hear multiple people shouting, 'set the building on fire' and similar stuff. Yeah, the crowd is full of idiot football hooligans enraged at people who were shooting at them minutes before. At the end people are trying to attack a guy who got down and yelling "he was shooting at people!!!", except one thing is yelling and another is that they're visibly helping people get out quote:There are also people throughout the video who encourage others not to throw stuff at people in the windows, and generally help, but there are also obviously people throwing stuff. The point is none of the bad guys responsible for the fire were punished, and some now even hold government positions. Yes, Russia obviously had a hand in the tragedy, but it doesn't mean that people literally burning 'separatists' alive should get away with it scot-free. I agree completely. What happened was very bad, my problem is with the framing that the other guy uses to clearly push a political narrative Somaen fucked around with this message at 18:55 on Oct 20, 2020 |
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Oct 20, 2020 18:32
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Somaen posted:So do you feel like repeating this garbage narrative makes it more convincing to anyone? Yeah man this clip totally invalidates the siege with people shooting into a building with people trapped inside by a mob out to beat the poo poo out of them and throwing petrol bombs to burn them alive. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4SgZi1s7Zw&t=120s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVXm9nnY-AQ You're a disingenuous and vile sack of poo poo defending a massacre but its ok since its against russians in a little safe haven on this forum because I guess this topic is too obscure for most people here to notice.
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Oct 20, 2020 18:35
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mila kunis posted:You're a disingenuous and vile sack of poo poo defending a massacre but its ok since its against russians in a little safe haven on this forum because I guess this topic is too obscure for most people here to notice. I am russian, while you're a hysterical, lying knuckle-dragger.
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Oct 20, 2020 18:45
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Somaen posted:I am russian, while you're a hysterical, lying knuckle-dragger. I'm going to be honest with you, I don't understand how people can defend it, especially while rightfully condemning the violence against protesters in Kyiv. I've been seeing the same excuses being deployed by Belarusian OMON for over two months now, and it literally makes me sick at this point. We were provoked, they attacked us first, some policemen also got hospitalised, we bandaged people whom we previously beat up. It's loving vile.
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Oct 20, 2020 18:55
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Mmm, yes, there's no difference at all between an oppressive state policing apparatus shooting folks who are protesting an authoritarian regime and average folks resisting an attempted coup by a fascistic foreign power.
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Oct 20, 2020 19:03
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Cugel the Clever posted:Mmm, yes, there's no difference at all between an oppressive state policing apparatus shooting folks who are protesting an authoritarian regime and average folks resisting an attempted coup by a fascistic foreign power. Wow, when you put it in propaganda terms, it's so clear-cut. Let me just check state TV channels to learn that protesters are in fact fascists controlled frome abroad attempting a coup. How does any of that excuse what you see in the video? Do you not think that people who are directly responsible for the fire should be punished?
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Oct 20, 2020 19:10
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Paladinus posted:I'm going to be honest with you, I don't understand how people can defend it, especially while rightfully condemning the violence against protesters in Kyiv. I've been seeing the same excuses being deployed by Belarusian OMON for over two months now, and it literally makes me sick at this point. We were provoked, they attacked us first, some policemen also got hospitalised, we bandaged people whom we previously beat up. It's loving vile. Who exactly is defending it? The Odessa fire was tragic and it is awful that the police stood by let the clashes happen. I am not arguing that it is not bad, because it is self-evident that it is bad and the people responsible should be brought to justice. It, however, has a circumstantial context that shows that the situation was being provoked with unclear parties organizing and arming violent movements in the country. My problem and what I am trying to point out is that the mush-brained tankie screaming about US FOREIGN POLICY and NAZIS is willfully blind to the direct and indirect involvement and provocations of the Russian state, absolutely indifferent to the fact that this started because the titushki attacked football hooligans killing several, somehow pathologically unable to see nuance or at least the bare minimum of "both sides are bad" and attempting to frame the narrative in the terms of "nazi ukrainians killed russians and leftists". Somaen fucked around with this message at 19:14 on Oct 20, 2020 |
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Oct 20, 2020 19:11
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Somaen posted:Who exactly is defending it? The Odessa fire was tragic and it is awful that the police stood by let the clashes happen. I am not arguing that it is not bad, because it is self-evident that it is bad and the people responsible should be brought to justice. It, however, has a circumstantial context that shows that the situation was being provoked with unclear parties organizing and arming violent movements in the country. My problem and what I am trying to point out is that the mush-brained tankie screaming about US FOREIGN POLICY and NAZIS is willfully blind to the direct and indirect involvement and provocations of the Russian state, somehow pathologically unable to see nuance or at least the bare minimum of "both sides are bad" and attempting to frame the narrative in the terms of "nazi ukrainians killed russians and leftists". Well, darthzeta88 kind of tried to defend it, and I'll admit I thought it was you. Sorry about that. E: looking at their rap sheet, it's pretty clear the 88 is not just the year they were born. Yikes. Once again, sorry for the confusion. Paladinus fucked around with this message at 19:21 on Oct 20, 2020 |
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Oct 20, 2020 19:18
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Paladinus posted:Well, darthzeta88 kind of tried to defend it, and I'll admit I thought it was you. Sorry about that. The only difference between them is Somaen prefixing his fascist apologism with "yes the deaths are tragic BUT" before going on to say the russians and leftists were evil foreign provocateurs who deserved to be set on fire by the far right ultra and ukranian nationalist mob.
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Oct 20, 2020 19:50
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mila kunis posted:The only difference between them is Somaen prefixing his fascist apologism with "yes the deaths are tragic BUT" before going on to say the russians and leftists were evil foreign provocateurs who deserved to be set on fire by the far right ultra and ukranian nationalist mob. As opposed to you posting fascist propaganda because 'merica bad? Before lecturing people based on poorly sourced information try not having a foreign policy view that's fundamentally racist.
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Oct 20, 2020 19:53
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What leftists are you talking about here? Russian separatists aren't leftists, some of them use some Soviet iconography, but that's pretty much purely a nationalistic appeal and they're probably as leftist as the Russian Communist Party.
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Oct 20, 2020 20:02
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mila kunis posted:The only difference between them is Somaen prefixing his fascist apologism with "yes the deaths are tragic BUT" before going on to say the russians and leftists were evil foreign provocateurs who deserved to be set on fire by the far right ultra and ukranian nationalist mob. lol leftists twisting the Odessa inferno into a concerted effort by the uniformly subhuman Nazi Ukrainians is way worse bullshit than Somaen's equivocating, not to mention racist as gently caress steinrokkan fucked around with this message at 20:21 on Oct 20, 2020 |
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Oct 20, 2020 20:15
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Sits down in eastern europe (thread) ah yes, most here will buy into my hilariously biased pro russian perspective Probably serbia would tbqh
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Oct 20, 2020 20:52
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mila kunis posted:The only difference between them is Somaen prefixing his fascist apologism with "yes the deaths are tragic BUT" before going on to say the russians and leftists were evil foreign provocateurs who deserved to be set on fire by the far right ultra and ukranian nationalist mob. There are enough people who literally celebrate the tragedy every year and post edgy jokes about barbecue on facebook on May 2, so any even remotely nuanced opinion is okay in my book. Worth noting, though, because Cugel has also mentioned foreign power, none of the people who participated in Odessa anti-maidan were Russian. There were Russians in other cities, but Odessa's movement was as grassroot as any pro-maidan one, if obviously influenced by Russian propaganda, which, in turn, amplified, scandalised, and distorted real societal issues of maidan-era Ukraine. Just something worth remembering next time an insane American pundit says antifa and BLM are Russian agents or whatever.
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Oct 20, 2020 21:42
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Paladinus posted:Well, darthzeta88 kind of tried to defend it, and I'll admit I thought it was you. Sorry about that. Hey, we cool. I know how it looks from the side, but with the bloody history of eastern Europe it takes lots of effort and patience to talk about old scars to build understanding and bridges between communities even for good-willing participants. When a useful idiot/ideology-poisoned moron comes in with bad-faith narratives it's easier just to shout them down, be it a Kremlin shill or a far-right nationalist.
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Oct 22, 2020 08:09
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Paladinus posted:Well, darthzeta88 kind of tried to defend it, and I'll admit I thought it was you. Sorry about that. Jesus Christ I was born in that year , year of the Dragon during a Sagittarius month. I am not a leftist, communist, or socialist that part is true. But I did not put that number in my name knowing some people refer it to HH. I actually learned that in SA. Speaking of letting official groups like police "letting things happen" I. Angry at the Ukrainian Marines letting Crimea happen, and retreating. Not really a "always faithful" moment and is a dark history for the Naval Infantry. Russians have used pretexts of defending Russian speakers and Russian ethnics to justify invasions many times. Russia is not really liked in Ukraine for more than just 2014.
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Oct 22, 2020 12:20
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While we continue to quarrel about one genocide, another has been averted. Champagne bottles a’poppin, Polish Constitutional Tribunal ruled “eugenic” abortion unconstitutional!
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Oct 22, 2020 15:08
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Oh, I was wondering if someone would notice. Seems like all the news these days is USA and Russia.  The previous "compromise" was shameful and what passed today is horrible.
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Oct 22, 2020 17:39
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goblin week posted:Oh, I was wondering if someone would notice. Seems like all the news these days is USA and Russia. This is terrible news! On the good news front, the Slovakian parliament voted against an anti-abortion bill. Good Slovakia, bad Poland. The Polish decision just feels so bloody stupid and discriminating. Those with the capability will go across the border to perform the procedure. I have no idea but it wouldn't surprise me if a number of Polish language abortion clinics popped up in Germany and other neighbouring countries to serve those who can afford the service. Meanwhile the less priviledged will take the back alley route and risk death, or the number of abandoned babies will rise. But I'm sure that was God's precise intent when He forbade abortions.
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Oct 22, 2020 21:15
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In response, a protest broke out in front of Kaczynski's home - he's the de facto ruler of Poland. https://www.facebook.com/GazetaZoliborza/videos/347065926520639/
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Oct 23, 2020 00:13
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https://twitter.com/JJansaSDS/status/1319567043218296833
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Oct 23, 2020 11:04
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Speaking of 'strong leaders'. Lukashenko wanted to organise a huge event in his support this Sunday, when a huge opposition protest is also bound to take place due to Tsikhanovskaya's ultimatum deadline. Today, presumably because they couldn't 'motivate' any significant amount of people to attend, the event is postponed until spring, 'when it's warmer'. Media reported that people working for state-owned companies and organisations were pressured to attend under threats of being fired, but many threatened back to leave themselves, and local bosses had to walk their threats back. Of course, Lukashenko says 300k people really wanted to come, but at the last moment he decided that it just wouldn't be safe.
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Oct 23, 2020 11:26
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Oh yes, nothing says STRONK US like Donald Trump, the president that dictators are rooting for because of how much he has weakened American influence worldwide.
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Oct 23, 2020 11:41
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Slovakia is a great country! Tremendous people, folks! The best in the baltics, really super duper wet!  Also, why the gently caress is Janša your PM again, shouldn't he still be in jail? edit: I mean, more than any other EE politician.
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Oct 23, 2020 12:12
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Lukashenko planned some sort of super-rally this weekeng with buses and even trains booked to bring people to Minsk. There were reports of "encouragements" by government and government owned businesses for their employees to attend or else. The whole thing suddenly got cancelled, theories on why: 1. Too many people refused anyway so it will look kind of pathetic 2. Worries that when OMON is deployed against traditional Sunday Anti-Luka march they might beat up Pro people because OMON DGAF who to beat
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Oct 23, 2020 12:22
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What's OMON anyway? Doing a quick search am I right in thinking that they are kind of like a late and post-Soviet gendarmerie mixed with SWAT? Do they do regular policing at times a bit curious about this because back in 2007 when I spent a summer in St. Petersburg I was typically at the lookout for cops (trying to avoid them, because Russian cops will try to scam and rob you), and I kind of remember that there was this distinction I saw between normal Militia (police) uniforms and some other dudes who were typically out in the roads, who wore what seemed to be grey or black combat fatigues IIRC (it's been a long time). At the time I thought they were traffic police (who people said were typically the most corrupt and abrasive, and then I thought it was kind of weird how the traffic police seemed to be kitted out for combat), but now I'm wondering if they were OMON, if they are indeed kind of like part European-style Gendarmerie, who'll do normal policing alongside their more paramilitary duties.
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Oct 23, 2020 12:34
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OMON are basically riot cops, but I assume they do something else too when there are no riots. The new Czech health minister was caught maskless having a meeting in a restaurant that was supposed to be shut down. Way to set an example, rear end in a top hat.  The PM and everyone wants him to resign but he's not budging for now. Some good 'shops are coming out of it though. 
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Oct 23, 2020 13:08
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gently caress off Batman posted:Slovakia is a great country! Tremendous people, folks! The best in the baltics, really super duper wet! The last guy resigned in January, because he couldn't get enough support in his coalition for a healthcare reform and JJ was literally the only one who wanted the job. He is of course eating poo poo all the time now, twice as much as usual. But the joke is on me, because JJ just LOVES eating poo poo. And he is always wearing a mask now, so I can't even enjoy seeing him squirm. As to why, well our justice system was also in need of reform, but well you snooze you lose. This whole twitter thing is because he loosing a lot of support from people who don't want to wear masks and think the virus is fake. He is kind of trapped now, since he is definitely the kind of guy who hates sucking dick of some up jumped reality TV star, but he has no choice lmao
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Oct 23, 2020 13:24
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Randarkman posted:What's OMON anyway? Doing a quick search am I right in thinking that they are kind of like a late and post-Soviet gendarmerie mixed with SWAT? Do they do regular policing at times a bit curious about this because back in 2007 when I spent a summer in St. Petersburg I was typically at the lookout for cops (trying to avoid them, because Russian cops will try to scam and rob you), and I kind of remember that there was this distinction I saw between normal Militia (police) uniforms and some other dudes who were typically out in the roads, who wore what seemed to be grey or black combat fatigues IIRC (it's been a long time). At the time I thought they were traffic police (who people said were typically the most corrupt and abrasive, and then I thought it was kind of weird how the traffic police seemed to be kitted out for combat), but now I'm wondering if they were OMON, if they are indeed kind of like part European-style Gendarmerie, who'll do normal policing alongside their more paramilitary duties. In Russia, the police are separated structurally from Rosguard. The former, previously known as Militia (prior to 2011 i think), are a federal structure in Internal Affairs Ministry, while the Rosguard was created in 2016, took OMON and Internal Armed Forces from police and acts independently from police, under direct control of the President and Putins ex-bodyguard Zolotov. So, basically, a very bloated Praetorian guard that our dear leaders can rely on when there is a need of skulls being bashed. Under Rosguard there are two groups of over-equipped fast response teams: OMON are more of riot cops/american National Guard, while SOBR are more in line with SWAT or GIGN - more militarized and employed in anti-terrorist or anti-organized crime operations. Generally, Rosguard has more lax requirements and employs draftees so you can be certain that people in camo uniforms/combat fatigues in policeman stance are troglodytes or people that you definetely dont want talk to. Also Rosguard loves sending people out of their native regions to "restore order" in problem places so you'd have 18 year old "cosmonaut" draftee from Rostov bashing skulls in Khabarovsk, almost whole continent away (I am sure it is the same practice in other large countries).
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Oct 23, 2020 13:30
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Randarkman posted:What's OMON anyway? Doing a quick search am I right in thinking that they are kind of like a late and post-Soviet gendarmerie mixed with SWAT? Do they do regular policing at times a bit curious about this because back in 2007 when I spent a summer in St. Petersburg I was typically at the lookout for cops (trying to avoid them, because Russian cops will try to scam and rob you), and I kind of remember that there was this distinction I saw between normal Militia (police) uniforms and some other dudes who were typically out in the roads, who wore what seemed to be grey or black combat fatigues IIRC (it's been a long time). At the time I thought they were traffic police (who people said were typically the most corrupt and abrasive, and then I thought it was kind of weird how the traffic police seemed to be kitted out for combat), but now I'm wondering if they were OMON, if they are indeed kind of like part European-style Gendarmerie, who'll do normal policing alongside their more paramilitary duties. OMON stands for 'mobile special assignments detachment,' the mobile part needed to substitute for when police in the USSR was called militsiya. They are riot cops, and they have loving huge arsenals at their disposal. They are also the guys sent for attacking defended targets (crime bosses, for instance, they always make a show of it). They are mostly dispatched in small numbers for show alongside actual police and are not generally expended for common policing. Saw a lot of this in SPB. The kitted out dudes you saw were definitely OMON, DPS (the road police) are usually dressed in you standard fare high vis. vests over the uniform and big hat. You really don't want to be wherever OMON is actually sent in numbers, for instance the city that had a protest about being made a site for a landfill which was then put under literal siege. Also, Belarusian protests are an indicative example.
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Oct 23, 2020 13:33
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Randarkman posted:At the time I thought they were traffic police (who people said were typically the most corrupt and abrasive, and then I thought it was kind of weird how the traffic police seemed to be kitted out for combat), When I was in Russia, a friend told me a similar thing about the traffic police and that you have to treat them like poo poo. I thought he was just posturing but then they stopped our car and he attacked them. He shouted at them like they were stray dogs and I poo poo my pants thinking we're going to Russian jail. Instead they quietly let us go. He did have a diplomatic passport, but the car had regular plates and he was a low ranking diplomat from a third rate country. I believe that if someone treated traffic cops in Croatia like that, they'd be offended and at least make him wait or do something else to inconvenience him. I was genuinely amazed, as we drove off, that you can treat an armed official like that.
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Oct 23, 2020 17:21
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gently caress off Batman posted:Slovakia is a great country! Tremendous people, folks! The best in the baltics, really super duper wet! he got released from jail because the supreme court decided only circumstantial evidence isn't good enough to jail people when they also lead a political party i guess  i think he's under investigation *again* but forgot what for, must be something dumb
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Oct 23, 2020 17:40
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Mass protests across the country including under Kaczyński’s house. Cops gassing and beating people left and right, including sejm politicians with qualified immunity. Taxi drivers joined the protests and farmers are pledging too (they actually go against PiS because they feel very offended by the „treat animals better” bill, but, uh, enemy of my enemy?). Żoliborz district got internet cut.
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Oct 23, 2020 22:55
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