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Sataere posted:They thought they'd have Hunter this year and he was probably a one-year rental for what they thought was a playoff run. It's recouping your losses Yeah, there was no way he could be re-signed at a reasonable price and the season is over so might as well just get an extra 5th on top of what would have been the max compensatory pick return.
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Oct 23, 2020 14:34
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Speaking of old baseball traditions... it used to be common for teams to trade a player but to continue paying part of their salary. Can you do that in football? E.g., the Vikings pay Cousins $15 million per year to go away and Team X pays him $10 million per year to actually be their quarterback? In most cases, it's probably easier to cut the under-performing player, but most players don't have guaranteed contracts....
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Oct 23, 2020 15:24
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gaj70 posted:Speaking of old baseball traditions... it used to be common for teams to trade a player but to continue paying part of their salary. Can you do that in football? E.g., the Vikings pay Cousins $15 million per year to go away and Team X pays him $10 million per year to actually be their quarterback? This happened with Brock Osweiler a few years back but I think Cousins's contract is set up such that the Vikings can't do that because they take the massive cap hit regardless of what they do with him.
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Oct 23, 2020 15:50
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There's no real reason to replace Cousins right now. He's the current best option at QB and he's paid for. In you need to bring in a guard to help fix the line (Quinton Spain is unsigned as far as I know) and ride out the season.
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Oct 23, 2020 16:25
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Thinking about Dexo's posts about Nagy, and I agree that he is a pretty good coach. The Bears seem prepared, they play hard and are mostly competitive, he makes adjustments, and (for the most part) does try to make the most of his players' abilities rather than doing the ol' system shoe-horn. It'd be great to see how he'd work with a competent quarterback, assuming the defense continues to excel. So let's assume the Bears flame out this year at some point, either just missing the playoffs or losing int he wildcard round. What do you do about Pace? You're going to hit that weird situation where if you fire the GM the new GM is going to want their own coach, as they don't want their career tied to someone they didn't pick. So then you have to get rid of a good coach? Isn't this almost exactly what happened with Lovie and Emery? I guess I'm also asking, is Pace that bad that you need to switch him out? The offensive talent isn't great and he's made some weird/questionable signings and trades. But the defense is pretty legit. I would think the Bears would want to avoid the HC search carousel as much as possible, given the time they wasted with Trestman and Fox. Thanks, I'll hang up and listen.
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Oct 23, 2020 16:48
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Vando posted:Yeah, there was no way he could be re-signed at a reasonable price and the season is over so might as well just get an extra 5th on top of what would have been the max compensatory pick return. The Ravens straight up said they wanted him really badly weeks ago so it seemed like they could have at least got back what they traded away. They gave up a second round pick to get him and got back a third. I don't know if the conditional fifths cancel out or if they had to trade him now to get back the original one. It's just lovely that they're losing a player who is fourth in the league for sacks for less than what they paid for him only two months after they picked him up.
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Oct 23, 2020 16:49
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Pace has gotten lucky with a couple late round defensive picks, made a few excellent FA signings like Akiem Hicks and Allen Robison, had a ton of FA misses, and the Mack trade falling into his lap elevated the whole defense. He has no idea how to pick talent on offense, and hired a pretty poor defensive coordinator. He needs to go. I mean jesus christ look at this (I think day 1&2 is where execs should excel, anything round 4 or after is getting lucky) 2015: 7th overall WR Kevin White (all time bust), 39th overall DT Eddie Goldman (pace's best pick in first 3 rounds so far), 71st overall C Hroniss Grasu 2016: 9th overall OLB Leonard Floyd (mediocre especially for a top10 pick), 56th overall C Cody Whitehair (average), 72nd overall DT Jonathan Bullard (bad, but 3rd round so not gonna always hit) 2017: 2nd overall QB Mitch (dont need to elaborate), 45th overall TE Shaheen (horrible) 2018: 8th overall ILB Roquan Smith (good i guess but doesn't seem like a gamechanger, he can't even make pro bowls on a stacked D), 39th overall LG James Daniels (ok i guess), 51st overall WR Anthony Miller (disappointment) 2019: 73rd overall RB David Montgomery (jury's out since line and playcalling stinks but he seems just average) 2020: 43rd overall TE Cole Kmet (too early to say), 50th overall Jaylon Johnson (seems like an incredible find and might be Pace's second best pick after Eddie Jackson) just loving whiffs over and over in the top 10 and in the 2nd round. how many years to find skill position starters? mastershakeman fucked around with this message at 17:21 on Oct 23, 2020 |
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Oct 23, 2020 17:19
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I believe another team found some success making the head coach the GM, maybe they should try that route.
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Oct 23, 2020 17:21
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Rooster Brooster posted:Thinking about Dexo's posts about Nagy, and I agree that he is a pretty good coach. The Bears seem prepared, they play hard and are mostly competitive, he makes adjustments, and (for the most part) does try to make the most of his players' abilities rather than doing the ol' system shoe-horn. It'd be great to see how he'd work with a competent quarterback, assuming the defense continues to excel. Pace made one terrible call with Trubisky. But to be fair, he wasn't the only one on either the GM or media side who thought that that Trubs would be good. And, as you mentioned, he has done well both in the draft and free agency in building a rock solid defense. His general offense picks haven't actually been awful, Trubisky aside, but his focus on building the defense has left the Bears short on skill position players and with a questionable O-line. I wouldn't call him visionary or brilliant or anything, but neither is he Bill O'Brien awful. He's...okay. Nagy is a very good head coach. Hs motivational and personal skills are top notch. The team believes in him...and did so even in the doldrums of an 8-8 2019 season...and they play drat hard for him. The problem is that he's only a so-so offensive coordinator, and insists on doing both jobs at once. Nagy as OC tends to be too clever for his own good, outthinking himself and calling risky plays when a safer play would let you get a first down and extend the drive. He's particularly eager to abandon the run when it fails early, which makes it easier for opposing defenses to tee off on a suddenly pass happy Bears offense. This was particularly egregious when we had Trubs in there, since poor Kissin' Titties never had the football IQ to choose the right throws. He'd sometimes make a great throw or luck into a huge run simply based on his superior athleticism, but the poor decision making kept biting him in the rear end. But instead of accepting that Trubs just can't run the offense the way he wanted, Nagy kept trying to square peg into a round hole with Mitch to generally mediocre results. (With Foles the opposite problem has manifested. Foles is football smart and does know where to throw the ball (occasional Farve-like gunslinger tendencies aside) but he doesn't have the athleticism to extend the play a lot of the time, which is troublesome when he doesn't have a lot of time to throw, which he often doesn't because of that suspect O-line.) My suspicion and fear with Nagy is that we're seeing Belichek with the Browns. That Nagy will develop into one of the great coaches of the mid to late 2020s...but that he'll do it on his second head coaching stop rather than in Chicago. So what have we got? We've got a mediocre GM and a flawed but with a lot of potential HC. If we flush Pace, we're going to lose Nagy, if not immediately then probably within a year or two at most. The questions one has to ask yourself are: If we do fire Pace, do we have confidence that Bears management will be capable of finding someone better? Look at the Bears after Lovie or the Lions after Caldwell. Sometimes "taking the next step" turns out to be a step off the cliff. Both Lovie and Caldwell had winning teams and their successors took those winning teams and dove headfirst into the toilet. I'd be pretty hesitant to dump the Pace/Nagy team while they're still winning games. In short, the Bears are in a weird place right now, but I'd be much more willing to lose Pace and try for someone new if A) it didn't mean losing Nagy, which it almost certainly would and B) if I could trust the Bears upper management not to gently caress it up even worse than Pace....which I can't. Especially not after one really good season, one literally average season, and what's been, so far, another really good season. If things really collapse, Nagy loses the team, and they end up 5-11 on the year, maybe I'd reconsider but at the moment with probably a 10-6 or 11-5 and a wild card appearance in the offing? I'll just dance with the one who brought us.
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Oct 23, 2020 17:49
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I feel like it's premature to hem and  about these things. The Bears are 5-1, arguably in spite of themselves, let's revisit these thoughts come playoff time or so.
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Oct 23, 2020 17:53
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Abugadu posted:Hot dog. Wwwwwweiner
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Oct 23, 2020 18:13
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https://twitter.com/KingFavre/status/1319651880847446024
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Oct 23, 2020 18:19
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he's just having fun out there
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Oct 23, 2020 18:57
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jng2058 posted:Nagy as OC tends to be too clever for his own good, outthinking himself and calling risky plays when a safer play would let you get a first down and extend the drive. He also overthinks and, as evidenced by having to burn a timeout to avoid a delay in the goal to go last week and then coming out of the timeout and taking a delay anyway, plays take too long to get in . It's been a problem since he got here because he mentioned it was important to get out of the huddle quickly to give Mitch time to look over the defense. Lovie would have same issue and we'd always seem to burn 2 timeouts a half to save 5 yard penalties. My biggest annoyance isn't so much his abandonment of the run, I don't blame him for yolo-ing it in some of these games, it's after every game it was an issue in he'd come out in the press conference and say he's gotta do better with the run, that's on him, even though we're up to maybe the 6th press conference he's said it. Pace is replacement level at best. His QB failures will doom him. Sure, Glennon wasn't a huge miss because it was an easy contract to get out of, but he was still bad, Mitch sucks and you traded up for him, and Foles is okay, but you should be getting more for someone you gave up a pick you probably didn't need to give up.
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Oct 23, 2020 19:29
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The big question on Pace is do you trust him to actually find that franchise QB? If you don't trust him to do that you probably have to move on.
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Oct 23, 2020 19:51
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drat! Why do Vikings QBs have such lovely politics? 
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Oct 23, 2020 20:26
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Oct 23, 2020 20:57
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Thanks for reminding me his last throw as a packer was insane. Literally every other route is open there.
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Oct 23, 2020 21:03
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Darth Brooks posted:There's no real reason to replace Cousins right now. He's the current best option at QB and he's paid for. In you need to bring in a guard to help fix the line (Quinton Spain is unsigned as far as I know) and ride out the season. He's fine, just way too expensive. Bad moneyball. (In fairness, that's always been my complaint about Cousins. The Vikings should have signed one of their other mediocre QB's at $15 million/year instead. Their receiving corps was good enough to make anyone all-pro)
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Oct 23, 2020 21:55
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mastershakeman posted:Pace has gotten lucky with a couple late round defensive picks, made a few excellent FA signings like Akiem Hicks and Allen Robison, had a ton of FA misses, and the Mack trade falling into his lap elevated the whole defense. You can't poo poo on him for his bad choices, then completely dismiss the best thing he's done in his tenure as the Bears GM. It is disingenuous. Mack didn't fall into his lap. He went out and got him. It was an aggressive move that got the Bears into the playoffs and added a perennial all-pro player at the second most important position on a football team. Pace is average. He's missed on a bunch of picks, but so do a lot of GMs. The fact is, the Bears are a more talented team now than before he got here. The real issue with him is that he constantly trades up for players who are a giant wet fart. I'd be a lot more forgiving if the mediocre players he traded up for didn't cost extra draft picks. But if you line his choices up around the league, he's just average. Not sure that is a compliment towards him so much as an indictment against front offices overall. All things considered, I'd keep Pace just to hold onto Nagy. At least if he was in the quarterback evaluation process when we drafted, we might have gotten Mahomes
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Oct 23, 2020 22:57
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I'm ready to believe in the bears if they completely trounce the rams.
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Oct 24, 2020 00:33
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The most Bears thing to do against the Rams in prime time would be to lose, but look solid, almost like they’ve turned a corner. Then look like garbage against the Saints but somehow squeak out a win. Contain Derrick Henry the next week, then lose out going 1-5 in the division.
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Oct 24, 2020 01:01
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LabyaMynora posted:Remember last year when we joked that the Packers only score just enough points to win, so they could spread their points throughout the season? save big points at menards
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Oct 24, 2020 01:55
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JGdmn posted:The most Bears thing to do against the Rams in prime time would be to lose, but look solid, almost like they’ve turned a corner. Hahaha, 1-5 in the division means Vikings beat them once.
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Oct 24, 2020 03:13
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DoctaFun posted:Hahaha, 1-5 in the division means Vikings beat them once. Twice.
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Oct 24, 2020 03:41
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Sataere posted:You can't poo poo on him for his bad choices, then completely dismiss the best thing he's done in his tenure as the Bears GM. It is disingenuous. Mack didn't fall into his lap. He went out and got him. It was an aggressive move that got the Bears into the playoffs and added a perennial all-pro player at the second most important position on a football team. Not to mention that the Packers were the other major team in play for Mack. I think you have to give Pace extra credit for getting Mack and denying him to the Packers.
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Oct 24, 2020 03:42
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Pace deserves no quarter. On one hand: Matt Millen drafted Megatron. On the other hand: Literally everything else Matt Millen did. A broken clock is still right twice a day. But it's still a broken clock. Go buy a clock that works.
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Oct 24, 2020 07:27
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Wisconsin has a future hall of famer coming up the ranks https://twitter.com/sheboyganscan/status/1320010479431987202?s=19
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Oct 24, 2020 15:36
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Gonz posted:Pace deserves no quarter. by AV which is admittedly not a great stat here's the best players pace has drafted goldman 30 (2015 draft so most games) eddie jackson (29) floyd 27 (gone, shocked its this high) mitch 27 (about to be gone) amos 25 (gone) whitehair 25 jordan howard 24 (gone) cohen 20 roquan 16 ( i expect him to get a new contract at least unlike most other guys) anthony miller 11 david montgomery 5 1 good pick (goldman) 1 great late find (jackson) and a bunch of replacement level guys. i'm sure there's worse GMs but the bears are the worst drafting team in the 1st round this loving century. top 5 bears 1st round picks of last 20 years: kyle fuller, tommie harris, kyle long, greg olsen??, marc colombo???? Pace might as well be the GM of the redskins over the last 20 years where you just sign infinite amounts of free agents and hope some pan out mastershakeman fucked around with this message at 17:30 on Oct 24, 2020 |
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Oct 24, 2020 17:22
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Pace got Mack because the raiders thought they would get higher draft picks out of us.
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Oct 24, 2020 19:22
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Turns out they were wrong. Because the Bears are a playoff caliber team. Which Pace made. Pace may have made some mistakes that keep them from being surefire playoff team and Superbowl contender. And maybe those mistakes should be fireable offenses, but the bears aren't abject garbage. They missed the playoffs last year but we're also in a division with two other good teams. The Bears are just in that awkward position of being the opposite of like those Packers teams that had good offenses but abjectly terrible defenses. Where if Rodgers didn't score every time he touched the Ball the Packers were hosed. But that looks and feels better watching as a viewing experience than having an elite defense, and an offense that you are just hoping puts 20 up.
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Oct 24, 2020 19:39
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mastershakeman posted:
Greg olsen was great and we traded him because our OC at the time didnt think he fit the system. loving dumb. Marc colombo was good, but then got injured. The bears proceeded to rehab him for 2 years before cutting him. If you thought he had potential, see it through and actually use him. I know its not the point of your post, but if you are goin back 20 years, Urlacher was our first rounder in 2000. I agree with that top 5 otherwise. Too bad we couldnt see some of them perform well on our team.
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Oct 24, 2020 20:21
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I think it's easy as a Bears fan to undervalue the work Pace has done to build the defense because good defenses are just like...expected to exist based on the past two decades But gently caress man, he's so bad at drafting high and assembling an offense. I'm definitely at the point where I think you've got enough info on his GM tendencies and can confidently say "we should be striving for something better," but I'm not gonna act like things couldn't be worse
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Oct 24, 2020 20:35
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One of these days, I really want to do a deep dive into evaluating front offices. The hard part is figuring out a metric that is objectively reasonable in its evaluation process. This is why having a day job sucks
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Oct 24, 2020 20:52
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here is a cursed thought that i just had that i want all of you to ruminate on for the next several days: chicago bears general manager jay "jay" cutler
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Oct 24, 2020 22:01
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Head coach Jay Cutler. GM Adam Gase. OC Mike Martz.
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Oct 24, 2020 22:10
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JGdmn posted:Head coach Jay Cutler. From a football standpoint, terrible. From a reality television standpoint.....
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Oct 24, 2020 22:13
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offensive coordinator jay cutler revolutionizes the NFL with the whatever you figure it out scheme
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Oct 24, 2020 22:18
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the quarterback goes to show coach cutler a play but he's just watching animaniacs on his tablet
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Oct 24, 2020 22:19
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the nfl has taken away chicago's draft pick as gm cutler has no idea who is even in the draft and just turned in a card saying "ted yellow"
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Oct 24, 2020 22:22
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