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It's never such a simple binary, it would be nice if it was. Take, for example, Spain: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/07/17/upshot/coronavirus-face-mask-map.html Spain has had harsh lockdowns, wears more masks than Japan (at least back in July) and significantly more than the US - yet is still getting hammered right now. There are so many factors that are relevant, but above and beyond all of them is individual behaviour. Masks help, but they are by nature infinitely worse than not being outside in the first place. Masks slow but don't prevent the spread of the virus. Only stringent lockdowns offer any efficacy in that regard. Why is Europe spiking? It's just been a natural bounce back from most countries ending lockdown. If anything mask use is far, far higher across all of Europe than it was in the early days. I think most Europeans would attest to that. What's different now than back in April is that there are several times as many people going about their daily lives, masked up or otherwise. All things held equal, Europe should fare worse than the US simply based on population density and lifestyle. To use Spain, again, consider the fact that 2/3 of all Spaniards live in apartments, proportionally double that of the US. Shopping delivery is far less culturally relevant, consumers shop more frequently at smaller shops by foot rather than by car, public transport is far more relevant to the average citizen, youth unemployment in Spain is more than 2x higher than the US - the potential factors go on and on. Belgium has notoriously been shredded by COVID - they have an urban population of over 98%, the highest in the world that isn't just a city-state. I don't mean to sound glib, but when the virus is already endemic and not controlled, masks or no masks, what really matters is how many people there are in one place and how often they come into contact with each other.
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Oct 24, 2020 13:34
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France has extended curfews to about half the country starting last night. It is forbidden to be out between the hours of 9pm to 6am... unless you’re working, going to work, coming back from work or walking your dog. In other words, until covid mutates into a werevirus that only comes out at night during full moons, we’re hosed and aren’t doing poo poo to stop the spread. School being currently out is probably doing more for saving us than the business killing half measures our government puts out.
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Oct 24, 2020 13:49
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Jeza posted:mask use is far, far higher across all of Europe than it was in the early days. I think most Europeans would attest to that it is higher, but also still absolute dogshit and only moderately higher, and not anything close to what you see in hong kong or japan yes the spikes are mainly driven by lockdown behavior however this is only because masks are universally worn so little and so inconsistently that their dampening effects are mild at best remember community masks only work if an overwhelming majority of people wears them highly consistently whenever they are anywhere remotely close to people if that is not given, then yes, lockdown is the only workable option but please don't act like masks are meaningless because of their own merit when this is only the case because masks are being completely loving half-assed
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Oct 24, 2020 13:50
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The abandonment of contact tracing should be all the evidence any of us needs that this is spreading in the workplace That’s the only reason it’s being abandoned. Because it will show we have to lockdown all workplaces and capital will kill us all before it does that.
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Oct 24, 2020 13:51
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agreed on that i work 100% remote and i constantly see people on video calls in groups of 2 or 3 in front of a camera and mic with none of them wearing a mask
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Oct 24, 2020 13:52
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Jeza posted:Why is Europe spiking? It's just been a natural bounce back from most countries ending lockdown. That’s not a mechanism, though. The virus isn’t actually a bouncy ball. If it can be modelled by one, well that’s convenient, but they’re similar only by coincidence. What’s really at play? Fear? Are Americans voluntarily declining group activities that Europeans are erroneously comfortable with? Are they both essentially on the same exponential trajectory, America just has a smaller exponent due to density? Jeza posted:All things held equal, Europe should fare worse than the US simply based on population density and lifestyle. Sure, all else equal, but this factor has been proven to be less of the be‐all, end‐all that everyone outside of New York City wishfully thought it was. Jeza posted:Shopping delivery is far less culturally relevant I don’t think Americans are doing that much anymore. Stores have been cutting way back on days and hours that curbside pickup is available. I guess to the extent it has been and still is available, it helps, but I don’t expect the magnitude is major. Platystemon fucked around with this message at 13:55 on Oct 24, 2020 |
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Oct 24, 2020 13:53
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Platystemon posted:That’s not a mechanism, though. The virus isn’t actually a bouncy ball. If it can be modelled by one, well that’s convenient, but they’re similar only by coincidence. I wonder if witnessing American incompetence is contributing to a false sense of security abroad to some degree. "We're not so selfish and reckless as Americans, so this won't affect us the same way. Their spikes are the result of uniquely American problems."
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Oct 24, 2020 14:01
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Mithaldu posted:no Sure. But I was responding to the idea that the US is doing better than Europe as an amorphous whole because they are better about masks, because there are plenty of places in Europe where mask use is categorically more embraced/enforced that the US, but are still spiking hard. I agree that mask use is half-assed compared to lots of East Asian countries, but I would say it's almost pointless/borderline harmful to go on about it. You can't feasibly change cultural behaviour overnight, and treating masks as the perfect cure comes with its own set of inherent risks. Masks are flat out not better than not going outside and that shouldn't be lost sight of. It's the kind of rhetoric that inevitably will be twisted for the use of those who want no lockdown but 'full masks' as a paper thin veneer of respectability, because as you know, masks are not used correctly. People just have two week old surgical masks stuffed in their pocket which they just stick on when they walk into a shop etcetc.
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Oct 24, 2020 14:11
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HerStuddMuffin posted:France has extended curfews to about half the country starting last night. It is forbidden to be out between the hours of 9pm to 6am... unless you’re working, going to work, coming back from work or walking your dog. In other words, until covid mutates into a werevirus that only comes out at night during full moons, we’re hosed and aren’t doing poo poo to stop the spread. School being currently out is probably doing more for saving us than the business killing half measures our government puts out. We had a similar curfew here in Melbourne (except for the dog walking thing, wtf) which started at 8pm for a few months and then rolled back to 9pm when the spread was starting to get controlled and it worked a treat. The aim is to stop people gathering at private parties or anything like that which is a LOT easier for the police to keep an eye on if everyone's supposed to be at their own house every evening. Of course you also have to combine it with closing bars and dining in at restaurants and all that, it's totally pointless if people can still gather in groups every night right up until the curfew. E: closing down borders between major population centres (especially if one of them has a major outbreak and the other doesn't) and confining personal travel to just 5km from your house (with exemptions for certain essential things like medical appointments etc) is also really important because it confines outbreaks. If you've got thousands of random people moving between high and low infection areas then there's no way you can contain the spread Snowglobe of Doom fucked around with this message at 14:17 on Oct 24, 2020 |
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Oct 24, 2020 14:13
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Let the record show that I started the current discussion by sourcing my statement that “in the summer, Europeans were laughing about Americans and their mask fetish”. I did not then and do not now think that masks solve everything. I do think that masks are a powerful tool and that to forsake them is folly.
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Oct 24, 2020 14:18
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your entire world view and conclusions are informed by pessimism and cynicism and projection to the point that almost everything you said is faulty and i'd pointlessly waste my time trying to address it further than thisSnowglobe of Doom posted:We had a similar curfew here in Melbourne (except for the dog walking thing, wtf) which started at 8pm for a few months and then rolled back to 9pm when the spread was starting to get controlled and it worked a treat. The aim is to stop people gathering at private parties or anything like that which is a LOT easier for the police to keep an eye on if everyone's supposed to be at their own house every evening. that's all a really good analysis the primary driver as timeline maps showed was unrestricted travel sadly in order to effectively do lockdowns of such scale the societies engaging in them must also act as societies and not just plonk down walls but add mutual aid too Mithaldu fucked around with this message at 14:41 on Oct 24, 2020 |
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Oct 24, 2020 14:38
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Noblesse Obliged posted:The abandonment of contact tracing should be all the evidence any of us needs that this is spreading in the workplace You're not wrong, but in Switzerland at least, it's more to do with just how shoddily the contact tracing was set up. A lot of it isn't digital and each case is very work intensive. I've also heard cases where the app itself doesn't warn people either (roommates of someone who tested positive and put the code in the app didn't get a notification on theirs, for example). At the college where I work, our attendance sheets are the contact tracing and these are pieces of paper that the students sign themselves (so not even 100% reliable but let's not get into that) and then we have to hand them in to the office at the end of each day. Then if any student tests positive, the cantonal doctor calls them to find out where they were for the last few days. If they've been in the school, the doctor calls and the secretaries have to look through piles of papers to find which students were in class with them and then pass those names on to the doctor who calls them to tell them whether they need to quarantine or not. It's an absolute joke and a task force member was on the news last night saying there's no way to build a better system anyway while the daily case numbers are so high.
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Oct 24, 2020 14:43
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Snowglobe of Doom posted:We had a similar curfew here in Melbourne (except for the dog walking thing, wtf) a thing with dogs is that it is good if they pee pee and doo doo outside rather than on the floor of your apartment
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Oct 24, 2020 14:46
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Me when the curfew hits:
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Oct 24, 2020 14:48
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Mithaldu posted:your entire world view and conclusions are informed by pessimism and cynicism and projection to the point that almost everything you said is faulty and i'd pointlessly waste my time trying to address it further than this Yeah, and in Melbourne it really did work. At one stage we were up to a peak of 700ish cases a day in August to now down to a rolling 14 day average of 5 Just really hoping we don't go and gently caress it up now!
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Oct 24, 2020 15:45
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https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1320016181734993920 LOL Donny's back on his bullshit again
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Oct 24, 2020 16:31
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I feel like focusing on mortality rates is deceptive since Long Covid should really be rolled into the long term human toll at this point. It's like everyone who boasts about smoking rates plummeting while completely ignoring the skyrocketing vaping rate.
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Oct 24, 2020 16:35
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This is the weakest poo poo to be rolling out this close the the election. Sad!
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Oct 24, 2020 16:36
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Snowglobe of Doom posted:https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1320016181734993920
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Oct 24, 2020 16:44
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We kinda had a fear that the home stretch of the elections the roni had a good chance of blowing up right about now. It's going to make in-person voting turn out smaller for sure, but by how much and by who.. Maybe 2 mile long lines instead of 5 mile long lines.
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Oct 24, 2020 16:45
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Amidst all the doom and gloom, NIOSH list N95s are coming back in stock and hey if winter is going to be bad: https://bonafidemasks.com/harley-n95-l-188-respirator-face-mask/ (I like these better than the rigid cup ones)
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Oct 24, 2020 16:52
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Are KN95s as good as N95s?
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Oct 24, 2020 17:00
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smoobles posted:Are KN95s as good as N95s? No, but they're the next best thing that's commonly available
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Oct 24, 2020 17:06
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Numbers here in Melbourne Australia continue to improve and the 14-day average is now down to just 5 cases per day, so they'll be reducing restrictions again tomorrow. There's been a small community outbreak in a Melbourne suburb and the government is rushing to contain it as quickly as possible. I just had this ad on Facebook: 
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Oct 24, 2020 17:12
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Insane Totoro posted:Amidst all the doom and gloom, NIOSH list N95s are coming back in stock and hey if winter is going to be bad: $80 for 20, is that a good price? I can’t remember what I paid for my kn95s smoobles posted:Are KN95s as good as N95s? My understanding is that the difference is their made in chiiina (Trimp) so quality may vary
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Oct 24, 2020 17:12
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20 for $80 is a good price but these don't help you beat women.
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Oct 24, 2020 17:19
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One of my coworkers told me that Ireland is on their highest level lockdown again.
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Oct 24, 2020 17:21
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Edit: nm, that link is N95s not KN95s. Probably a good price.
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Oct 24, 2020 17:22
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Mrs. Sexual posted:$80 for 20, is that a good price? I can’t remember what I paid for my kn95s gently caress off
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Oct 24, 2020 17:25
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Mrs. Sexual posted:$80 for 20, is that a good price? I can’t remember what I paid for my kn95s Why are you still here?
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Oct 24, 2020 18:29
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Mrs. Sexual posted:$80 for 20, is that a good price? I can’t remember what I paid for my kn95s Go away
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Oct 24, 2020 18:34
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you don't get to wear a mask you worthless piece of poo poo i hope whatever you do buy ends up being counterfeit and you die on a loving ventilator (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 24, 2020 18:40
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Let's dig into some old irrelevant crap.
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Oct 24, 2020 19:10
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They've started airlifting patients from The Netherlands to Germany for treatment. How is our government dealing with this crisis? Well you can no longer buy alcohol after 8PM at the grocery store and it's highly recommended to wear a mask but it's not like it's enforced. Other than restaurants everything is still open like regular.
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Oct 24, 2020 19:45
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Philthy posted:We kinda had a fear that the home stretch of the elections the roni had a good chance of blowing up right about now. libs care more about packing people into in-person voting than stopping a mass superspreader event because the republicans' saber rattling about the postal service to scare them worked perfectly, smh
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Oct 24, 2020 19:46
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Mrs. Sexual posted:$80 for 20, is that a good price? I can’t remember what I paid for my kn95s Seriously dude. Just loving leave. You are universally hated here. gently caress off Burt.
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Oct 24, 2020 21:21
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he's fine, nobody cares
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Oct 24, 2020 23:07
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Mozi posted:Nobody cares
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Oct 24, 2020 23:36
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https://www.tiktok.com/@comradecringe/video/6886220350879698182?lang=en https://i.imgur.com/OuV82OO.mp4
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Oct 24, 2020 23:40
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TikTok username checks out
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Oct 24, 2020 23:41
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