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Cleopatra Jones and the Quest To Unfuck Barik's Life  Notice by this point we aren't "a" Fatebinder, we're "the" Fatebinder. Cleopatra is moving up in the world.   : I take it you know me. : Who are you? : You sought me out - I assumed you knew already. Or do you make a habit of walking into strangers' houses? : Nice forge.: Thanks. I made it myself. She chuckles. : [Lore 42] After the Vellum Citadel? : I have a forge of my own if you'd like to relocate. It's significantly larger and provdes a much better view.  : I need you to examine my friend Barik.: This one, I assume? He's pointy. Her gaze wanders around Barik's assortment of sharp edges. : drat it, Fatebinder. Why can't you leave this be? : Currently he's pretty bad at climbing, sneaking, swimming, and using the privy unassisted. I'd like you to address that. : I promise you that this will be for the best, friend. Let me deal with the legal ramifications. : I assume that you want to come out with all your bits regardless, right? Then hold still and quiet down.: Before anything else, I need to ask you a few questions. : Understand that there may be things we can't tell you.: I won't ask anything political or tactical. Only matters personal.: Hardly reassuring.   These replies.  : [Lore 47] It's important, Barik, particularly in the case of a possible convergence of arcane energies, to rule out resonant adulteration.  Ah, so that's how the Disfavored stay in formation! : And that's all I shall speak of it. I have never passed time with a mage. Or Archon, Oath Bound, Beastwoman, or anything else unusual. : Is there anything you are unwilling to soil with your perversion, witch?: You wore Forge-Bound armor during the Conquest, correct? The smith nods.: And prior to it.: Was it sigil-woven? Enchanted against harm?: I do not believe so. It was iron.: Have you had sigils of any kind branded onto your skin? : The mark of the Disfavored?: The General's sigil, or rather what of it the Overlord's decree allows. Many members of the Legion scar themselves with it, binding their loyalty into their flesh and blood. It marks us family.It's one big vaguely incestuous family. Also this would seem to imply Ashe's sigil is not one of ours. : I've heard it said that Graven Ashe protects. The Sages had no direct knowledge of the Archon of War's abilities, but there were many, many theories. I don't suppose you can provide any concrete information. He's a terrible general and a terrible leader. His entire tactics seem to be "throw heavy infantry with occasional mage support at enemy". : [Lore 47] Archon Ashe shares a strong connection with his soldiers. It allows him to take on some of their harm while also sharing in their experiences. What did you expect after we yeeting Erenyos off the tower? : And you do not need repairs or maintenance on the armor, I presume?: Aside from oiling it and filing down the pointer bits? No. Wait, how did you know that? Metal grinds quietly. : What am I supposed to do with this? : [Take it.] : Are you insane?: Perhaps a little. Comes with having most everyone and everything you know wiped from the face of Terratus with a few magic words from a distant tyrant. She shakes her head. : [Stab Barik.]    : [To Barik.] It'll be okay, Barik! You've faced worse! : I suppose that's true. Though usually with a bit more warning. He twists his torso in an attempt to get a look at the wound. : [Examine the wound.] : I need to see the injury, Barik. As opposed to fast reluctance? : You peer through the hole in the oxidized bronze and iron shell, willing yourself to ignore the mixing smells of cooked meet[sic] and fetid human waste. You see the ragged, oozing flesh beneath, a gasping red cavity pulsing in time with Barik's labored breath.  : [Lore 42] His armor seems to be healing... just like his flesh. : Your armor and flesh heal as one. Is that a standard property among the Disfavored? She straightens, peering into Barik's mismatched eyes. : [Lore 57] If he and his armor heal as one, they're likely mystically bound together. Go on...guess.... : I have a working theory, but what I can't make out is what differentiates you from the other Disfavored who served in the Blade Grave. Maybe it's some trick of the blood, maybe it's your connection to the Fatebinder, maybe something else.: But I hardly knew the Fatebinder prior to Vendrien's Well. : [Athletics 26] Choose your words carefully, smith. You might hurt Tunon's feelings! Do you know how hard he works on those laws?  : We'll get you the sample.: Then I await your return. She turns from you, peering thoughtfully into her slack tub and the iron rod within.TheGreatEvilKing summary posted:
You are probably seeing where this is going. More when the quest is done. We got another missive from Rhogalus.  Rhogalus posted:Dear Cleopatra Jones, Let's write to Myothis.  We will politely introduce ourselves. Being a dick to experienced Fatebinders is a bad idea.  It's going to take us a long time to get this artifact done so let's finish up Barik's quest.  Hail the refugees.  We already set the precedent that scavenging is kind of OK, so we guide them through the storm.  Having a reputation for fairness never hurt either.  Myothis is pretty cool and gets back to us. Myothis posted:Cleopatra Jones, We are going to ask about Spires  Our reply posted:Dear Myothis, We'll get to Myothis later. There's a lot of text to get through.  Welcome to the Blade Grave! It sucks!  When we get here it triggers a cutscene.  Specifically all these Scarlet Chorus jerks run out from nowhere.   I honestly think this is the only lady Blood Chanter in the game.  : [Glare silently] : Am I supposed to know who you are? : How did you know I'd be here? : Get on with it and tell me what you want. : Aside from revisiting on you what you did to the Censor? Her lip twitches : What does the Archon of Secrets want with Barik? : [Attack] I think that I speak for both Barik and myself when I tell you we'd sooner see him dead than in the hands of the Voices.   It's another Tyranny fight! We're not going into details. Sirin goes down because I gently caress up my micro and didn't upgrade her equipment, but then we burn them all to death.  Sorry Careless Spark! I kind of liked your design!  Grab the sample, and...  : Something bothering you, Barik? Barik, you asked Cleo to get you out of your armor. Do you really want to go through life as a celibate man covered in poo poo? : Barik, I just want to help. Why are you so resistant to it? As we can see, Barik has been covering his ears every time the game has proven that the Laws of Kyros are worth what they are written on. : More ambiguity than you might think. The flexibility of the law is in the details. Oops. : Peering at the ground for several seconds, Barik says nothing, and then turns his attention to you.: This place haunts me, Fatebinder. These walls, these lands, they were hard once, but they possessed an austere beauty. The General saw them for what they were - lands well worth fighting for. : Go on.: We were no fools. We knew what had fallen upon us, and we took cover as best our iron shields and the General's protection allowed. Yet the wind tore us away, one by one. Some silent, some screaming. : Take the metal to your smith or do not. There is nothing further to be said. Let us leave.TheGreatEvilKing summary posted:
 So, uh, we have officially pissed Barik off enough to get his Fear ability.  It's not bad!  Let's finish up the Barik quest.  Cool!  : [Give the sample.] Here. : With rapt attention, Barik watches the smith move about the sample, examining it from several angels. He says nothing, though when the faceplate of his helm shifts toward you, there's accusation in his eyes.: Heh...hmmm... A few other thoughtful sounds follow as she continues her examination. : A revealing cantrip and some aimless grunting? Oh come on, I could have managed this.: This will do. This will most certainly do! She straightens, nodding vigorously. Lycentia brings her hands together again in a single, sharp clap.: It's going to take me a little time to work out the rock's properties, but this is a promising start. : Of course not. Don't be ridiculous.: Of course not. His armor grinds against itself with a growl.: Pull up a stool or crate and make yourselves at home. This shouldn't take too long...(We fade out, and...)  : Find anything?: I'd sure as stone say I did.: The alloy absorbs and retains mystical energy. Specifically in the form of magical effects. She grins. : What does this mean for Barik? : You live your entire life in service to Graven Ashe and the Overlord. The added burden of this armor is ridiculous! Goddammit Barik. : Unfortunately, separating Barik from his armor may not be as easy as one imagines. Perhaps if I'd gotten to him immediately after the Edict...: As is, Barik is as alloyed with his armor as the iron is with the bronze. She gestures toward the sample.  Yup! The power of Graven Ashe is trapping Barik in that armor with his own poo poo. : That's not encouraging. : Is there no other way?: An alternative? I'll continue studying the alloy. If I find anything, I'll send word to your Spire. She drums her chin with three sooty fingers, frowning.: You could always visit. We have a teleporter, it's not like you have to climb the whole thing.: I'll pass, thanks. High spaces have never agreed with my... everything. She passes an open palm over her belly. This is a DLC quest, which may explain the typo pile.   It's kind of weird to me that neither the Disfavored nor the Chorus build any siege engines outside Vendrien's Well ever. I guess that takes time they don't have, but still. : Thank you, Lycentia. Please keep searching for a better way. TheGreatEvilKing summary posted:
So we very briefly talked with Barik earlier, but we got enough out of him from the quest that we can say a bit more. The thread compared Barik to Boxer the horse from Animal Farm, and honestly that's a really astute comparison. Much like Boxer, Barik's response to continuing abuse is to proclaim his loyalty more loudly and swear to work harder. Barik is a military commander while Boxer is the Russian peasantry, but the comparison stands. Earlier in the game posted:Kyros knew exactly what she was doing - punishing the Disfavored troops for the indecision of Graven Ashe. Barik has been nothing but loyal to both Ashe and the Overlord - remember, Ashe hasn't rescinded Barik's orders to protect us, and his reward is to be trapped in his own armor for sins he didn't commit - because of the "protection" of Graven Ashe. As I've been saying, Barik's tragedy is that he is a noble man who cares for others trapped under a prison of iron crafted for him by the superiors he serves so blindly. There's really nothing more to say. Next time: We finally get that artifact and chat up Bleden Mark.
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Oct 26, 2020 03:41
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: Let's murder these clowns!
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The end!
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Oct 26, 2020 04:02
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sunken fleet posted:It's weird how the Bronze Brotherhood are so antagonistic though, isn't it? Like aren't we supposed to literally be a walking embodiment of Tunon's Law and thus a pretty Big loving Deal? But these random guys that harass merchants for 'tolls' want to go toe to toe with us? Even if they won wouldn't some other agent of Tunon come along eventually and murder them for murdering us? It's pretty unsubtly implied that Raetommon's not exactly playing with a full deck, and this is contributing to his brazen defiance of Kyros. Welby, on the other hand, does show the Fatebinder some actual respect. Guess who ends up leading the Bronze Brotherhood in the alluded-to story branch where you get to work with them. Also the main reason there aren't any siege engines is because siege engines are designed for getting past walls. Everywhere with walls is either already conquered or stuck inside the Edict of Storms. If they want to attack, like, Lethian's Crossing, they can just walk on in and do it, like the Fatebinder did.
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Oct 26, 2020 04:20
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EclecticTastes posted:Also the main reason there aren't any siege engines is because siege engines are designed for getting past walls. Everywhere with walls is either already conquered or stuck inside the Edict of Storms. If they want to attack, like, Lethian's Crossing, they can just walk on in and do it, like the Fatebinder did. I honestly took away that mages had mostly replaced siege engines for things like the attack on Vendrien's Well. Certainly we don't see any Disfavored engineers building a bridge across the Matani.
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Oct 26, 2020 04:30
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TheGreatEvilKing posted:I honestly took away that mages had mostly replaced siege engines for things like the attack on Vendrien's Well. Certainly we don't see any Disfavored engineers building a bridge across the Matani. I think the bigger reason nobody was trying to build a bridge across the Matani is that construction projects over rivers are remarkably susceptible to an extremely angry mage who controls water using said river to wash them away effortlessly.
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Oct 26, 2020 04:34
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Two updates in one day, that's exciting! But was that really the end of Barik's quest? Just 'you're hosed, sucks to be you lol'? Is there no option to persuade him to renounce his loyalty or something? Or kill Ashe I guess... though that seems a lot more difficult.
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Oct 26, 2020 04:44
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sunken fleet posted:Two updates in one day, that's exciting! There is potentially more in Act 3. We will leave it there.
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Oct 26, 2020 04:48
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Barik: Hey, could you get me out of this armour? Fatebinder: *tries* Barik: Wait no!
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Oct 26, 2020 08:38
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It is such an effective metaphor, I have to applaud it every time I think of it. Your reward for loyal service to the tyrant is to be encased in a shell with your own piss and poo poo. And it just keeps piling on too. No, it is illegal to tamper with it. Hey, remember that mystical protection and regeneration? Applies to your shell too, isn't that just what you wanted?
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Oct 26, 2020 09:36
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: What are you gonna do, stab me?
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Oct 26, 2020 14:19
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While Barik is really cool and all thematically, I do have to go back to a point touched on way, way earlier in the thread: of all the party members you can bring along, Barik is the only one who's really built to wear heavy armor. And he can't, because his armor is permanently stuck on (unless you get the DLC), so the only one who can possibly use it without it being a probably bad idea is your Fatebinder. Verse could maybe wear heavier armor, but her abilities are all geared towards killing, and heavy armor impedes that because it slows down how often you can attack. Maybe Lantry if you keep him as a buffer. You can eventually upgrade Barik's armor, but I don't think we're going to do that before we shuck the poor guy.
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Oct 26, 2020 14:35
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You can stuff Sirin inside a suit of heavy armor, since she mostly just stays in place and sings, but it looks incredibly awkward.
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Oct 26, 2020 14:48
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Wow, Tunon is a dick, but a dedicated one. Not only he forbade tampering with Barik's armor for very little reason, he also took his time to send a message forbidding this to every blacksmith in the Tiers.
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Oct 26, 2020 15:02
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The DLC quests are... written a bit hastily.
Zulily Zoetrope fucked around with this message at 15:32 on Oct 26, 2020 |
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Oct 26, 2020 15:30
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I know there is an artifact currently getting cooked up, but it's too bad we can't stick Sirin's helmet in there as a substitute. Most likely a bad idea, but I figure that if you let Sirin enslave all the armies then your spire securities concerns are put to rest. Also holy Barik poo poo I hadn't realized he was the only survivor. No wonder he is resisting so much, he is full on survivors guilt. The armor is justice for him living when no one else did. Will you be exploring the DLC? I glanced at the first post but didn't see mention of that, although it was a quick skim.
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Oct 26, 2020 16:21
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Kyros wording the Edict in such a way that it guarantees either that everyone dies or that someone (presumably one of the two Archons was most probable) ends up linked to the Spire seems interesting. Looks like we'll have more information soon. I feel like some subtlety in how Barik is being presented has been missed in the discussion. Reread his description of watching everyone else die from the edict he survived. The trapped-in-armor-and-poo poo thing is a manifestation of survivor's guilt. He survived, in part by chance, but also perhaps because of his unusually strong bond of loyalty to Graven Ashe, which likely meant he healed faster than anyone else. The result of that, on the surface, is being bonded more securely to the armor which marks him as a Disfavored, as well as being bonded more securely to and by Ashe. But underneath, something literally stinks. The armor is a metaphor for his unwillingness to face up to the fact that he survived where everyone else died. Perhaps even to face up to the fundamental injustice of Kyros' edict, which he experienced first-hand and continues to experience because of Kyros' laws. He's so bound up, both in his own honor and in his service to Ashe and Kyros, that he can't address or deal with the fact of his own survival. He deserves all the pain and discomfort and punishment and misery because he survived. On the most subtle of levels, his very existence is subversive to the values and system he would give his life to uphold: Kyros proclaimed destruction, and yet he endures. Tunon may have declared that his survival (in his current condition) was the will of Kyros, but on some level Barik has to know better. That's even why he gets so insistent about dropping the matter after Tunon's ruling: if his current lovely condition is part of a secret plan on Kyros' part, then getting free of the armor violates that plan. That explanation is a potentially satisfying way to resolve his survivor's guilt. So no, he is in no way better after the ruling, but he has a straw to cling to; at the same time, that makes it harder for him to actually get free because he'd be betraying Kyros, but also making his own suffering be for nothing, senseless, instead of being part of Kyros' grand design. The Fatebinder, interestingly, also survives one of Kyros' edicts (by breaking it), so she does seem like the sort of person who might be able to help Barik. Additionally, down any path where the Fatebinder isn't allied to Ashe, Barik's own loyalty gets stretched thin: Ashe ordered him to protect the Fatebinder, but if the Fatebinder is actively working against Ashe, anything Barik does must betray him. But weakening or breaking that connection is the only way for Barik to reconcile what happened to him and regain something approaching a life.
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Oct 26, 2020 16:27
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Arcanuse posted:Hmm. What do you do with armies when the conquest is over?
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Oct 26, 2020 17:27
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Zeroisanumber posted:What do you do with armies when the conquest is over? Reading that, it finally hit me why the whole Vendrien's Well setup seems so familiar - it's the Asterix intro.
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Oct 26, 2020 19:23
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Zeroisanumber posted:What do you do with armies when the conquest is over? the ones you can repurpose into being police, you repurpose into being police. the ones you can't come down with a tragic case of Edict to the dome
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Oct 26, 2020 19:40
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Zeroisanumber posted:What do you do with armies when the conquest is over? That's the rub, innit? If the Tiers are conquered, stable enough, and the conquering force is clearly loyal to Kyros in the eyes of Kyros's other subordinates, the whole "perpetual war" plan falls through as there wouldn't be anything left to ostensibly conquer without risking a considerable schism. (Starting wars on previous ostensibly loyal Archons territory would, if anything, accelerate matters.) Without an external target, it's a matter of time before the various remaining forces of Kyros turn on one another, and uh. There goes the empire. If the armies conquer the tiers but are very clearly against Kyros for whatever reason (there is no shortage of reasons) then Kyros sends in more forces to put them down and the metaphorical can is kicked down the way for a few more years at which point Kyros sends in more Archons to clean up the rogue armies, set matters up for those Archons to die/go rogue, etc etc etc until something goes wrong.
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Oct 26, 2020 20:08
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I am very confused by the concept of "breaking" Edicts. This word use has bugged me since the first time the phrase appeared. Does the game ever explain why the literal fulfillment of the conditions set forth in an Edict is described as "breaking" and not... well, "fulfilling"? ...It's like saying that Macduff "broke" the witches' prophecy by killing Macbeth.
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Oct 26, 2020 20:16
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One of my favorite things I've learned on Somethingawful is that Nazi military uniforms were a clusterfuck of customization, because they were obsessed with having them "look good", esp. when marching through a conquered village in front of news cameras. Like, several sizes of stahlhelm helmets, each requiring multiple operations to stamp out, and requiring they be fit to the wearer's head rather than having an adjustable band. Fritz musn't have a big wobbly helmet when he's on camera. Pocket details on the uniforms requiring three or four times as much work as a simple flap might have, and poorly located for access when under fire to boot. Tailors assigned to every SS squad for alterations. (Maybe one organizational level above squad, but it's like a tailor for every couple of dozen SS goons instead of having like one guy on the base.) Of course, this is supposed to be the Bronze Age, and my understanding is that custom gear was de riguer because the people doing most of the fighting were
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Oct 26, 2020 21:42
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There's no mass production in the bronze age. The forge bound are supernaturally good at metalwork, but it still comes down to someone swinging a hammer.
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Oct 26, 2020 21:47
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Arcanuse posted:That's the rub, innit? This is basically why the Roman empire really started to run into trouble. They had built a society that was driven by having a huge standing army going off and conquering things and they eventually conquered so far that it really started to strain the logistics of the time. But they couldn't just stop conquering things because their entire economy was built around the constant influx of slaves, plus then you'd also have a bunch of soldiers coming home with nothing to do but sit around and cause trouble and maybe start thinking that they could run the empire better.
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Oct 26, 2020 23:16
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Where are the Oldwalls exactly? Some sort of magic sewer system? With the BB bridge scene, I think its missing an option. Its the Sith Inquisitor *shock him* option
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Oct 27, 2020 00:37
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wiegieman posted:There's no mass production in the bronze age. The forge bound are supernaturally good at metalwork, but it still comes down to someone swinging a hammer. Yep, and pretty much all armies followed a "bring your own spear" policy as well. One part of class distinctions of the time were what kind of military equipment you could afford to bring.
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Oct 27, 2020 00:43
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Nissin Cup Nudist posted:Where are the Oldwalls exactly? Some sort of magic sewer system? They're literal walls found in disconnected segments across the landscape. Lethian's Crossing is built at the intersection of two of them.
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Oct 27, 2020 01:11
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paragon1 posted:Yep, and pretty much all armies followed a "bring your own spear" policy as well. One part of class distinctions of the time were what kind of military equipment you could afford to bring. the origins of cavalry as the role of nobility can be traced back to this time, in fact, because being able to afford bringing a horse to war was 1. super valuable to any army 2. super expensive for any individual person to have. as such, the biggest way for any rich person to earn the favor of the military, and by extension the big boss, was Have Horse, Do Fights. flash forward a couple thousand years and there is all this weird cultural detritus built up around that to the point our word for behaving in an honorable fashion literally translates as "like a horsehaver"
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Oct 27, 2020 03:35
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Before mere horses, it was more horses and chariots, chariots were used all over the bronze age, Gaul, Mycenaean Greece, Egypt and so on. Also the causes of the fall of the Roman Empire are numerous, but there's a serious weight to place on the Senatorial Classes more or less refusing to pay taxes and soldiers all the time and trying to bite back on the Panem et Circences. When the conquest engine stopped, I think things did stabilize, and I think it has to have done so because, empirically, the empire survived the end of the endless conquests for a long rear end time, long enough for several generations of soldiers. (And, again if I remember correctly, there was the very standard method of simply confiscate land to give to returning soldiers, ask Virgil about it, he loved that trick. A point of this game is that power doesn't have to give a poo poo, and it's also a point of history.)
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Oct 30, 2020 02:02
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Hi, TheGreatEvilKing! Just wanted to pop in, and say thanks for running this! I've been following the LP, and your thoughts on the game motivated me to re-install it and do my own playthrough, which I've already finished - it's surprising how quick the game goes once you are familiar with the mechanics. When I played it originally, I didn't pay much attention to the story beyond the surface level - I completely missed the "evil is incompetent and back-stabbing" theme, and just assumed everyone was generally useless in that classic RPG way to make them need assistance from wandering murderhobos. Back then, I have sided with Disfavored, and I recall it being a "lawful evil" path, with options to make it slightly more bearable for the occupied populace. My new run was a Scarlet Chorus one, and it very much felt like a "chaotic evil" path. Spending more time with Scarlet Chorus just highlights how incredibly dehumanizing their philosophy is, and working for Voices of Nerat feels like a horrible decision my Fatebinder has made, and has to pay for it again and again. In act 1, we get a glimpse of their "strongest survive" philosophy, but Act 2 really delves into the implications, and does not pull its punches. I'm very interested to see what the Anarchist path brings - at least without being beholden to either Archon, the Fatebinder should be able to follow their own conscience somewhat, hopefully
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Oct 30, 2020 12:32
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12Apr1961 posted:I'm very interested to see what the Anarchist path brings - at least without being beholden to either Archon, the Fatebinder should be able to follow their own conscience somewhat, hopefully This is mostly the case, but Tyranny's biggest flaw is that the writers had a certain lack of imagination that shows up again and again, as the writing often tells you what your motives were in doing something, even when your actual reason was completely the opposite. The first big example, as was previously discussed, is everyone's reaction to you claiming Ascension Hall for yourself (or, more accurately in my case, for the Court, but gently caress anyone trying to do that, apparently) rather than letting anyone else have it. It's entirely valid to choose that option simply because none of the competing factions were worthy of it and you wanted to keep it out of their hands, but the game insists that you did it as a selfish power grab. You're often railroaded by the limited dialog options into acting like an rear end in a top hat despite you, the player, not wanting to behave in that manner. This is one area in which a certain other CRPG that GEK has played eats Tyranny's lunch, by making every reasonable solution to a quest possible, including a lot of weird edge cases that most players are unlikely to see, and letting the player define their motives freely.
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Oct 30, 2020 16:41
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I am reminded of an RPG, I'm pretty sure it was Planescape: Torment but am not certain, in which you said or did something that offended one of your companions. I don't remember the circumstances leading to your apology, but among the options were "I'm sorry" and "I'm sorry (lie)." It was a nice touch. As for what the Anarchist path holds, I do wonder if it's going to touch on "your goals and motives don't mean poo poo if you can't actually do anything about them, doing anything about them requires power."
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Oct 30, 2020 22:29
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MechaCrash posted:As for what the Anarchist path holds, I do wonder if it's going to touch on "your goals and motives don't mean poo poo if you can't actually do anything about them, doing anything about them requires power." Sorry, Tyranny is of the opinion that anyone who wants power is an aspiring tyrant and anyone claiming to want power for altruistic ends is lying. Good people should allow themselves to be crushed beneath the heel of fascism for the sake of their moral purity.  This is where Tyranny's otherwise excellent writing falls flat, is the fact that it seems to hate the very notion of accumulating power, but is unable to articulate how it expects anyone to change anything without power. The only good leaders are those who have to be practically forced into the position and do it mainly out of a sense of obligation or as an unintentional side effect of some other noble goal, and anyone who expresses a desire to lead must be some combination of evil, corrupt, and delusional.
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Oct 30, 2020 22:56
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EclecticTastes posted:Sorry, Tyranny is of the opinion that anyone who wants power is an aspiring tyrant and anyone claiming to want power for altruistic ends is lying. Good people should allow themselves to be crushed beneath the heel of fascism for the sake of their moral purity. I don't know, I think that comes down to the question: do you believe the ends can justify the means? Can you in fact use evil means to create an unambiguous good? Tyranny seems to be firmly on the side of no, you can't. And I'm inclined to agree.
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Oct 30, 2020 23:01
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If you wanted to be a good guy, you should have worked with the rebels.
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Oct 30, 2020 23:05
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...For a rather specific definition of "good".
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Oct 30, 2020 23:13
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wiegieman posted:If you wanted to be a good guy, you should have worked with the rebels. Honestly, if you wanted to be a good guy, you wouldn't have reached the start of the game. I don't mean this in a "the point of the game is to not play it" sense, but that the basic setup requires that your character be self-serving and callous to begin with, even if they otherwise do pursue peace and justice.
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Oct 30, 2020 23:45
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Cythereal posted:I don't know, I think that comes down to the question: do you believe the ends can justify the means? Can you in fact use evil means to create an unambiguous good? I'm of the opinion that only people (or, if you want to be technical, a person's intentions, goals, and choices) can be evil. Everything else, lacking the cognitive ability necessary for moral reasoning, is inherently morally neutral, and inherits the morality of its user. One could argue that certain things have only evil uses, and there is no way to use them for good ends, and I'd likely agree, but that does not make those things evil in and of themselves, because evil only exists in one's desires and intentions. Take Karl Popper's Paradox of Tolerance. In most cases, intolerance would be described as "evil", because it is used by evil people to evil ends. However, as the paradox describes, one must be intolerant of intolerance itself, in order to preserve tolerance. I think we can (or should) all agree that bigots should not be welcome in civilized discourse, and that denying them a platform is good (or at least not evil). Thus, intolerance can be used toward good ends, by aiming it at every other strain of intolerance.
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Oct 30, 2020 23:53
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EclecticTastes posted:Sorry, Tyranny is of the opinion that anyone who wants power is an aspiring tyrant and anyone claiming to want power for altruistic ends is lying. Good people should allow themselves to be crushed beneath the heel of fascism for the sake of their moral purity. You're suggesting that the Fatebinder, who grew up in a society dominated by Kyros and was then educated and trained to accept the system and world as we've gotten it, should somehow magically have the kind of moral or ethic perspective that we do? Where precisely in the setting is such an understanding to come from? I am also getting the sense that you may be conflating the way characters in the game interpret the PCs actions with how the game itself construes them, but you may be making a judgment based on stuff we haven't gotten to yet.
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Oct 31, 2020 02:04
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Narsham posted:You're suggesting that the Fatebinder, who grew up in a society dominated by Kyros and was then educated and trained to accept the system and world as we've gotten it, should somehow magically have the kind of moral or ethic perspective that we do? Where precisely in the setting is such an understanding to come from? It obvious that other characters we've seen in the setting understand those concepts, so, wherever they learned it, I guess (keep in mind, Kyros' regime is only 430 years old, and most of the world wasn't conquered until well into that period). Like, I think we can agree that such a person would be rare in this setting, but completely removing the option in the writing is flawed.
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Oct 31, 2020 03:23
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