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Perry Mason Jar posted:Are there any cards that let you play or return a card from exile (except for those cards which themselves exile a card(s) and return them as part of the card's effect)? Why is "remain exiled" there? Otherwise, if this card left the battlefield you wouldn't be able to cast the exiled cards anymore since the ability to play them would be tied to this card. The "remains exiled" wording attaches (not in the mtg sense) the ability to play it to the exiled card.
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Oct 27, 2020 18:11
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resistentialism posted:One was a meaningful part of the inverter deck just a little while ago. gosh. Does "from outside the game" only refer to the sideboard, or does this card let me get in my car, drive home, grab my entire Magic collection, drive back to the store, come back to the game, plonk down some boxes of cards, and sift through them in front of my furious opponent e. brb gonna go fly to my cousin's house in Houston, he's got some of the cards I own
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Oct 27, 2020 18:13
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"outside of the game" is restricted to your sideboard generally. In commander it does basically nothing.
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Oct 27, 2020 18:14
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Some Goon posted:Otherwise, if this card left the battlefield you wouldn't be able to cast the exiled cards anymore since the ability to play them would be tied to this card. The "remains exiled" wording attaches (not in the mtg sense) the ability to play it to the exiled card. if I had four Opposition Agents in my deck, and I cast one, and exiled a card, and then you removed my Opposition Agent, and then I cast another one, can I now cast cards from the Exile that were Exiled by the first one? I think the answer is yes, but now I'm not sure. The Shortest Path posted:"outside of the game" is restricted to your sideboard generally. In commander it does basically nothing. well that's much less fun
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Oct 27, 2020 18:15
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Perry Mason Jar posted:Are there any cards that let you play or return a card from exile (except for those cards which themselves exile a card(s) and return them as part of the card's effect)? Why is "remain exiled" there? resistentialism posted:One was a meaningful part of the inverter deck just a little while ago. also, even if that weren't the case it's the best way to template it to protect against future possibilities and odd rules corner cases especially when the OG Wishes used to be able to pull cards directly from exile (and, in one of the corner cases I mentioned, still potentially can if a subgame is created by Shahrazad or a similar effect) e: The Shortest Path posted:"outside of the game" is restricted to your sideboard generally. In commander it does basically nothing. Leperflesh posted:well that's much less fun explicitly this is only if playing by tournament rules, otherwise it literally is anything in your collection (though also obviously a bunch of people choose to mostly play by tournament rules even while playing casually) commander used to allow a 10 card sideboard pretty much just for Wishes, but it got changed at some point LGD fucked around with this message at 18:23 on Oct 27, 2020 |
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Oct 27, 2020 18:16
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Leperflesh posted:if I had four Opposition Agents in my deck, and I cast one, and exiled a card, and then you removed my Opposition Agent, and then I cast another one, can I now cast cards from the Exile that were Exiled by the first one? I think the answer is yes, but now I'm not sure. Opposition agent is formatted that you can cast the card for the rest of the game no matter what happens to the agent. The effect is tied to the exiled card. https://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Thief+of+Sanity
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Oct 27, 2020 18:18
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Karn TCG is great and gets stuff from exile
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Oct 27, 2020 18:18
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Leperflesh posted:if I had four Opposition Agents in my deck, and I cast one, and exiled a card, and then you removed my Opposition Agent, and then I cast another one, can I now cast cards from the Exile that were Exiled by the first one? I think the answer is yes, but now I'm not sure. You don't need to have any in play, that's why it's worded so. For cards without this wording you can never cast them once the original card has left play, even if you just blink it - any time a card refers to itself, unless it uses the verbiage "a card named XXXX", it refers only to the game object, and any time a card changes zones it becomes a new game object. In non-commander casual play "outside the game" means any card you own, in tournament play it's just your sideboard.
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Oct 27, 2020 18:21
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resistentialism posted:Opposition agent is formatted that you can cast the card for the rest of the game no matter what happens to the agent. The effect is tied to the exiled card. Gosh. And it has Flash. Can I interrupt someone's fetch action by casting Opposition Agent, or does it go on the stack and not resolve till they've finished fetching e, wait no that's not how the stack works, there are no interrupts any more, obviously I knew that I just haven't had my coffee yet
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Oct 27, 2020 18:21
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The Shortest Path posted:"outside of the game" is restricted to your sideboard generally. In commander it does basically nothing. its restricted to your sideboard in games under tournament or format rules, but if you are not playing by those then yep, it's your entire sack of cards also i remain of the belief that since those cards generally don't specify magic card you are allowed to take an ace of spades Leperflesh posted:Gosh. And it has Flash. Can I interrupt someone's fetch action by casting Opposition Agent, or does it go on the stack and not resolve till they've finished fetching that's the whole point of the design, they do a fetch action and you flash this in response and screw up their search
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Oct 27, 2020 18:22
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you can definitely flash it in in response to the fetch activation
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Oct 27, 2020 18:22
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Cracking a fetch is an ability that can be responded to before it resolves, allowing you to squelch it or surprise mindcensor it, etc.
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Oct 27, 2020 18:23
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yeah dangit I knew that I have pretty much got my brain to stop thinking that interrupts still exist, but occasionally I still lose the plot for a moment e. I'm referring to the old way that the stack/interrupts used to work in teh olden days, you know what I mean
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Oct 27, 2020 18:23
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Leperflesh posted:Gosh. And it has Flash. Can I interrupt someone's fetch action by casting Opposition Agent, or does it go on the stack and not resolve till they've finished fetching Yeah it had flash precisely to do this. They activate a fetchland, with that on the stack you flash this in to steal their land.
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Oct 27, 2020 18:24
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The number of games that will just end when you flash this in response to a fetch should have been enough to make it never see print
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Oct 27, 2020 18:25
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actually hosing fetch lands owns
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Oct 27, 2020 18:25
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Skyl3lazer posted:The number of games that will just end when you flash this in response to a fetch should have been enough to make it never see print Yeah it's kinda nasty. ...I wonder if it's legacy playable.
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Oct 27, 2020 18:25
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The Shortest Path posted:Yeah it's kinda nasty. It is going to make snow the only viable legacy deck.
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Oct 27, 2020 18:26
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I assumed they were talking about legacy, this isn’t going to end games of Commander off a fetchland, it will probably end lots of games by sniping a demonic tutor tho.
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Oct 27, 2020 18:27
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Skyl3lazer posted:The number of games that will just end when you flash this in response to a fetch should have been enough to make it never see print Prediction: a bunch of people are gonna strenuously disagree with this sentiment
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Oct 27, 2020 18:27
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Is there any sane reason for why "outside the game" was never errataed to "your sideboard"? It makes no sense to me. Well, I also think that in formats without sideboards those cards should be interpreted as written so I am a bit strange already.
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Oct 27, 2020 18:27
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Flashing it in response to a fetch still doesn't ramp you, you have to use your land drop the following turn to get the land out. It's no different than an instant speed Stone Rain (that still stops other searching)
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Oct 27, 2020 18:27
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Leperflesh posted:yeah dangit I knew that    how did we ever move away from such an elegant rules structure?! 
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Oct 27, 2020 18:29
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VictualSquid posted:Is there any sane reason for why "outside the game" was never errataed to "your sideboard"? It makes no sense to me. Well, I also think that in formats without sideboards those cards should be interpreted as written so I am a bit strange already. Most games of Magic don't have sideboards, and do have large collections from which it can be fun to pull things. It's just commander thats the odd one here.
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Oct 27, 2020 18:30
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VictualSquid posted:Is there any sane reason for why "outside the game" was never errataed to "your sideboard"? It makes no sense to me. Well, I also think that in formats without sideboards those cards should be interpreted as written so I am a bit strange already. I've never seen another game that left this so ambiguous. As written on the card, if I'm playing at Bob's house he has his whole collection in his closet but I only brought my two decks, he's got a huge advantage. It's the kind of effect that is only balanced in organized play.
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Oct 27, 2020 18:30
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Infinite Karma posted:Flashing it in response to a fetch still doesn't ramp you, you have to use your land drop the following turn to get the land out. It's no different than an instant speed Stone Rain (that still stops other searching) Stone rain isn't also a 3/2 that stops future fetch lands. Like, from now until the end of time, in any format where this is legal, you have to hesitate to fetch if ANYONE AT THE TABLE can cast a black spells, because you lose if you get got. It doesn't need to ramp, it guarantees a land drop while also setting you back a turn. In many cases it's a two turn time walk that sometimes you don't draw another land! Like, if you miss your 2 drop, go to fetch for your 3 and get hit by this, you've just lost the game.
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Oct 27, 2020 18:30
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Skyl3lazer posted:you're just lost the game. drat it
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Oct 27, 2020 18:31
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Leperflesh posted:I've never seen another game that left this so ambiguous. As written on the card, if I'm playing at Bob's house he has his whole collection in his closet but I only brought my two decks, he's got a huge advantage. It's the kind of effect that is only balanced in organized play. The game can’t be balanced around people who don’t understand or follow the rules.
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Oct 27, 2020 18:32
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Bust Rodd posted:The game can’t be balanced around people who don’t understand or follow the rules. True. It'd be nice if the rules were clear! Why doesn't the effect say sideboard, instead of this nebulous "from outside the game"? e. before anyone collapses into a ball of sarcastic snipe about this post, this is a very, very, very mild criticism I'm leveling, not some weepy angry explosion of impotent rage.
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Oct 27, 2020 18:35
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Leperflesh posted:True. It'd be nice if the rules were clear! Why doesn't the effect say sideboard, instead of this nebulous "from outside the game"? Someone already answered this. It's not going to be from a sideboard in most games, it's literally going to be from someone's collection. Making it say sideboard means EDH players and super casuals are going to have to figure out what a sideboard is and then pick 15 cards to put in it and that's a pain in the rear end. You're right that a card that says "you own from outside the game" is unbalanced if you're playing at your buddy's house and they have access to a collection and you don't, but kitchen table magic doesn't have to be balanced.
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Oct 27, 2020 18:39
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Leperflesh posted:True. It'd be nice if the rules were clear! Why doesn't the effect say sideboard, instead of this nebulous "from outside the game"? It’s very rude to troll
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Oct 27, 2020 18:39
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VictualSquid posted:Is there any sane reason for why "outside the game" was never errataed to "your sideboard"? It makes no sense to me. Well, I also think that in formats without sideboards those cards should be interpreted as written so I am a bit strange already. because casual games don't have sideboards. I had a kitchen table deck with Burning Wish in it and just had a stack of 50 ish sorceries in my deck box. one group I played with just skipped the "have to have the cards here" part and just let you name the card you wanted so it was basically like Mental Magic, it was fun.
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Oct 27, 2020 18:39
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Infinite Karma posted:Flashing it in response to a fetch still doesn't ramp you, you have to use your land drop the following turn to get the land out. It's no different than an instant speed Stone Rain (that still stops other searching) Skyl3lazer posted:Stone rain isn't also a 3/2 that stops future fetch lands. Like, from now until the end of time, in any format where this is legal, you have to hesitate to fetch if ANYONE AT THE TABLE can cast a black spells, because you lose if you get got. It doesn't need to ramp, it guarantees a land drop while also setting you back a turn. yeah, it's a hatebears style lock piece, and one that may have broad applicability since it potentially hits both decks that want to tutor combo pieces and can play a role against land-light decks using a pile of fetches if you want to pressure their mana (otoh it's almost certainly not enough on its own, since at least in a Legacy context 3 is a fair bit of mana and most of the decks that it could potentially lock out can both operate on 1-2 mana and are plenty used to dealing with 3 mana spells that will be ruinous if they resolve, and even in other formats "removing a random 3/2" isn't the highest bar to clear if you've got a couple of mana to work with) LGD fucked around with this message at 18:45 on Oct 27, 2020 |
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Oct 27, 2020 18:42
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fadam posted:kitchen table magic doesn't have to be balanced. Well no, but it is nice to not just disregard balance when it'd be trivial to say "sideboard" instead, and there's no reason kitchen table magic players can't make sideboards for their decks, especially if the sideboard mechanic was formalized as a rule that comes up frequently in play. I play a lot of board games and RPGs and stuff and this specific game rule is nearly unique, as far as I can recall. I have to think that in 20+ years, this conversation has occurred at Wizards at least once, and I'd be interested to hear what justification was given for just sticking with the current "card you own outside the game" language vs. switching to a more formalized and clear "card in your sideboard" wording.
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Oct 27, 2020 18:45
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Leperflesh posted:I have to think that in 20+ years, this conversation has occurred at Wizards at least once, and I'd be interested to hear what justification was given for just sticking with the current "card you own outside the game" language vs. switching to a more formalized and clear "card in your sideboard" wording. Because Commander doesn't have sideboards.
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Oct 27, 2020 18:46
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Leperflesh posted:Well no, but it is nice to not just disregard balance when it'd be trivial to say "sideboard" instead, and there's no reason kitchen table magic players can't make sideboards for their decks, especially if the sideboard mechanic was formalized as a rule that comes up frequently in play. I play a lot of board games and RPGs and stuff and this specific game rule is nearly unique, as far as I can recall. The justification is most magic players have no idea what a sideboard is so this is easier, and the idea of digging through a box to find the perfect silver bulletin is appealing to a lot of casuals. You have to weigh the benefits versus the costs and there are a bunch of negatives that myself and several other posters have detailed already, and the only cost to doing it is a very specific case you bring up that is about as meaningless as it gets.
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Oct 27, 2020 18:48
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Is there anything that allows you to spend your opponents' mana while opposition agent is letting you hijack their tutors? Apart from having a panglacial wurm in their deck anyway.
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Oct 27, 2020 18:50
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They also almost never print cards with this effect.
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Oct 27, 2020 18:50
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Leperflesh posted:Well no, but it is nice to not just disregard balance when it'd be trivial to say "sideboard" instead, and there's no reason kitchen table magic players can't make sideboards for their decks, especially if the sideboard mechanic was formalized as a rule that comes up frequently in play. I play a lot of board games and RPGs and stuff and this specific game rule is nearly unique, as far as I can recall. I'd theorize it's because sideboard is a tournament rules concept, separate from game concepts like zones, objects, types, effects, etc.
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Oct 27, 2020 18:50
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Orange Fluffy Sheep posted:Because Commander doesn't have sideboards. Commander explicitly also doesn't work with "outside the game" effects Commander rule #11 posted:Abilities which bring other card(s) you own from outside the game into the game (such as Living Wish; Spawnsire of Ulamog; Karn, the Great Creator) do not function in Commander.
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Oct 27, 2020 18:50
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