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It's not really clear what Incubus's plan really is, or if he's even planned that far ahead. I don't think he necessarily wants to rule the multiverse (he doesn't even seem very interested in ruling 1/7 of it) so it's entirely possible he's betting on Allison to win it all and then be grateful enough to let him do whatever he wants. Or, he's hoping there's no clear winner and the multiverse descends into chaos.
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Oct 30, 2020 06:07
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| # ? May 24, 2024 22:12 |
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Incubus is definitely petty enough to kick over the whole concordance of the demiurges because they didn't show him the respect he felt he was owed. TK-42-1 posted:Incubus was actually on the level with his boost. He didn’t do anything other than power her superego and she overcame that in a huge moment of personal growth.
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Oct 30, 2020 06:20
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Incubus explicitly gives people true, active ambition. The motivation and will to turn hopes into promises and desire into deed. Allison had a lot of potential for that, it was just drowning in anxiety and self-loathing.
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Oct 30, 2020 06:35
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Incubus just wants to kill his enemies and sees Allison as a sword through which he can do so. Dude cares a shitton about "winning" and not much else
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Oct 30, 2020 08:11
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In case anyone hasn't seen it, confirmation of Jagg and Jadis's Words.
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Oct 30, 2020 08:49
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okay but which one is the wildcard? it's allison isn't it
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Oct 30, 2020 12:03
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Maya is the wildcard. She'll show up and it's gonna be like 'hey girl, long time no see. Any recommendations for a good noodle place around here?' and then everybody sits down for lunch.
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Oct 30, 2020 12:31
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Honestly not sure at this point if Maya even cares about Incubus and her ‘finally you show yourself’ wasn’t meant for Jag.
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Oct 30, 2020 12:38
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Demiurge4 posted:Honestly not sure at this point if Maya even cares about Incubus and her ‘finally you show yourself’ wasn’t meant for Jag. The only reason Maya is alive is because of her undying hatred of Incubus. I'm pretty sure she was referring to him.
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Oct 30, 2020 13:12
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Where is that said? Because even supporting texts seem to have a bit of a case of the unreliable author, except when abbadon says something themselves. Even then they tend to be cagey with their wording, and have been known to change their minds.
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Oct 30, 2020 13:14
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thechosenone posted:Where is that said? Because even supporting texts seem to have a bit of a case of the unreliable author, except when abbadon says something themselves. Even then they tend to be cagey with their wording, and have been known to change their minds. I mean, it seems pretty clear to me that at least Maya believes what I said, which seems good enough when considering who she is talking about : https://killsixbilliondemons.com/comic/king-of-swords-6-59/
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Oct 30, 2020 13:27
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Mr. Lobe posted:I dunno, something about annihilating a whole crowd of innocent bystanders makes me slightly question his intentions If there is a time loop, maybe he thinks that it doesn't matter, because all of their existences will come to an abrupt end when the loop resets and then play out anew anyway. Nilbop posted:I'm more interested in why Jagganoth needs Allison's key to kill Metatron. Can nobody reach him without her key? Babysitter Super Sleuth posted:I don’t think he NEEDS it, its just that itll mean he can steamroll all opposition between himself and metatron rather than having to fight them on more or less equal footing. Perhaps, but it might well be possible that he does need it - we know that Metatron's potential power is basically infinite, that, I think the quote was, he could make the entire universe cease to exist with a single word if he wasn't bound by the Old Law that compels him not to do it. It might be impossible to successfully kill him without the full key of the multiverse. MikeJF fucked around with this message at 15:01 on Oct 30, 2020 |
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Oct 30, 2020 14:53
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Speaking of the loop: on the assumption that it does exist and Jagganoth knows, I'm wondering if Jagganoth is of the belief that Metatron's continued existence is necessary to allow it to continue, and that when he says "cut the true world from this corpse reality", the corpse reality he refers to is the cycle of time trapping the universe, and he's talking about stopping it and allowing the universe to continue on, no matter the costs. After all, look at how Metatron looms when Zoss is describing his efforts: The comic's also gone out of its way to emphasise the unreliable narrator with that initial defeat of Metatron by Zoss, with the depictions varying so much:   And it makes me wonder if it's setting up some further reveals about what happened there. MikeJF fucked around with this message at 15:21 on Oct 30, 2020 |
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Oct 30, 2020 15:14
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it's going to be like Pratchett's Pyramids, where the God that is the wellspring of power from which Metatron derives is Metatron from the previous turning of the wheel, and there is no overarching control or fate or power, just a perpetual cycle.
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Oct 30, 2020 15:21
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Question, is there a rhyme or rationale for Gog's speech bubble changes? There are times when it looks written by a child and times when it is more normal. Is it like clown gog vs beast gog? I always read the scrawls in a drugged out, loopy voice in my head.
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Oct 30, 2020 15:29
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Someone mentioned that it's possibly that Zaid was the key dude from the previous "turn" of the wheel and Jadis' prophecy always refers to that previous turn and therefore is always wrong. Every turn Zoss gives the key to someone new in an attempt to change the outcome.
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Oct 30, 2020 15:41
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Have we had any indication that there is a literal timeloop? I'd always just taken that as part of the comic's Hindu influences, and all mention of it as being more thematic than literal. Honestly gonna be pretty disappointed if there does turn out to be Weird Time poo poo, I feel like that'd be missing the point of the comic's own mythology by a wide margin
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Oct 30, 2020 16:05
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One piece of circumstantial evidence I haven't seen mentioned with regards to the possibility of time loops is that in the TTRPG sourcebook there's an ability called "spin the wheel and laugh at god" that lets a player rewind time.
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Oct 30, 2020 16:30
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Renaissance Robot posted:Have we had any indication that there is a literal timeloop? I'd always just taken that as part of the comic's Hindu influences, and all mention of it as being more thematic than literal. I agree, personally I always took the "turning of the wheel" stuff as referring to the cycle of violence, with each turn being a new king poo poo on top. That the last turn ended up with the current seven demiurges winning. All the retellings gloss over the events between Zoss disappearing and the Seven coming to power - how many other people ruled the roost in the meantime?
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Oct 30, 2020 16:48
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ATP_Power posted:One piece of circumstantial evidence I haven't seen mentioned with regards to the possibility of time loops is that in the TTRPG sourcebook there's an ability called "spin the wheel and laugh at god" that lets a player rewind time. Which is particularly relevant because of  I think at one point Abbadon said that Juggernaut knows more about what's going on than almost everyone else in the comic except Jadis and Metatron and Zoss himself. Tenebrais posted:I agree, personally I always took the "turning of the wheel" stuff as referring to the cycle of violence, with each turn being a new king poo poo on top. That the last turned ended up with the current seven demiurges winning. All the retellings gloss over the events between Zoss disappearing and the Seven coming to power - how many other people ruled the roost in the meantime? Zoss disappeared in the early days of the universal war, and I feel like the comic's depicted that as pretty much raging non-stop for roughly a thousand years with nobody ever dominating until the seven allied together to finally wipe out whoever was left by that point and split the world between them. It's been... a vague amount of time, but at least several thousand years of Seven rule since. MikeJF fucked around with this message at 17:02 on Oct 30, 2020 |
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Oct 30, 2020 16:51
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The idea of history being cyclical doesn't imply a time loop.
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Oct 30, 2020 17:02
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The text of the comic does though
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Oct 30, 2020 17:43
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"You seek the throne this time?"
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Oct 30, 2020 18:19
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Dr Subterfuge posted:The text of the comic does though They dont have to be the exact same people. Each time a conquering king is born, they subjugate throne and metatron, and become privy to the secrets of the universe, and the nature of it all.
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Oct 30, 2020 19:31
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Rigged Death Trap posted:They dont have to be the exact same people. conquering king is literally zoss' title, there is no other conquering king.
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Oct 30, 2020 19:59
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In this universe, Yisun seems to be both an all-powerful being that literally existed before dying so that things other than Yisun could exist, and also a metaphor or mythic figure, who also actually hung around to dispense cryptic wisdom after committing holy suicide. Cause and effect don't seem to follow a linear relationship for Zoss or Yisun or other folks on their level, so it's quite possible that the wheel refers to the endless cycle of violence and conquest for most of the characters, while referring to something else for those who have ascended to myth, with both of them being aspects of the same thing.
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Oct 30, 2020 20:39
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Dr Subterfuge posted:The text of the comic does though No, it does not. Juggernaut specifically says "this WILL happen again, it will all happen again forever". Not that it has happened. People have taken that page insanely literally in a way that is not yet warranted, but even at its most literal it is a PREDICTION and an expression of Juggernaut's nihilism, not a statement of fact. If there is a time loop, and there could be, there is not enough evidence to confidently conclude such at present.
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Oct 30, 2020 20:50
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Captain Oblivious posted:No, it does not. Juggernaut specifically says "this WILL happen again, it will all happen again forever". Not that it has happened. People have taken that page insanely literally in a way that is not yet warranted, but even at its most literal it is a PREDICTION and an expression of Juggernaut's nihilism, not a statement of fact. Only because it's impossible to conclude anything for sure until we see the comic (or can see inside Abbaddon's head). But based on the existing context:    A time loop being implied is a pretty fair conclusion.
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Oct 30, 2020 21:10
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It feels to me more like a cycle, where she's seeking the throne like Zoss did, and Zoss hoped she'd do different from what he did and not repeat his mistakes and just loop all his disasters for the next 1000 years until she grows jaded and miserable and abandons the throne
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Oct 30, 2020 21:17
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It sounds as though Zoss is doing everything again and again like Groundhog Day until he ends up with a universe that doesn't just tear itself apart through endless violence.
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Oct 30, 2020 21:21
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Yeah I don't think it's a time loop, it's just a hosed up cycle and Allison is this cycle's Al-yisun who normally would be doomed to start the cycle again
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Oct 30, 2020 21:31
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The way it's phrased - "this cycle might bear out differently", "the world always spun inevitably towards ruin", "past and future are one", "it will all happen again, forever", "over and over, as he spins the wheel" - makes a lot more sense if it's actually a time loop and not just a metaphorical cycle. To me, anyway.FlocksOfMice posted:It feels to me more like a cycle, where she's seeking the throne like Zoss did, and Zoss hoped she'd do different from what he did and not repeat his mistakes and just loop all his disasters for the next 1000 years until she grows jaded and miserable and abandons the throne Saying "I thought this cycle might bear out differently" makes little sense when the only previous cycle is a singular one only involving himself. If it's a time loop where he's tried over and over, either keeping or passing the key (to Zaid?) each time, that statement makes more sense. My interpretation is this is the first time he's tried passing the key to Allison instead. That said I will admit both he and Juggs talk very cryptically. Rotten Red Rod fucked around with this message at 21:55 on Oct 30, 2020 |
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Oct 30, 2020 21:51
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I don't understand how anyone can think this is a time loop when the entire comic has been about what has been done before bleeding into itself as it influences what will happen, which would be what's been done, etc. etc. Kind of like a cycle. Which is roughly wheel-shaped. Because it feeds into itself. Over and over. Because people notice how violence always feeds into more violence and things don't seem to get better for long. Because it's a cycle, one could say. Of violence. And domination and tyranny.
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Oct 30, 2020 21:52
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NachtSieger posted:I don't understand how anyone can think this is a time loop when the entire comic has been about what has been done before bleeding into itself as it influences what will happen, which would be what's been done, etc. etc. It could be both.
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Oct 30, 2020 21:54
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Rotten Red Rod posted:Only because it's impossible to conclude anything for sure until we see the comic (or can see inside Abbaddon's head). But based on the existing context: The previous cycle Zoss is referencing here is the one in which he was the conquering king, and sought the throne. Or at least, that's a plausible read of the text. You could read these panels as implying a time loop; my contention is, that's dumb and excessively mechanical, and doesn't give the moral aspect of the story any room to breathe.
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Oct 30, 2020 21:55
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Only in the loosest possible "everything takes place inside linear time, with the understanding that any time deviations are intrinsically extreme outliers" interpretation yes. Congratulations. Technically anything that references a repeating of events, metaphorical or not, is a time loop.
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Oct 30, 2020 21:56
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Renaissance Robot posted:and doesn't give the moral aspect of the story any room to breathe. Why? NachtSieger posted:Only in the loosest possible "everything takes place inside linear time, with the understanding that any time deviations are intrinsically extreme outliers" interpretation yes. Congratulations. Technically anything that references a repeating of events, metaphorical or not, is a time loop. It's a comic about heaven/hell being an alternate dimension populated by kung-fu goblins and literal gods with magical plant powers. I think it can also have a cycle metaphor that applies multiple ways, to the traditional "cycle of violence" AND ultimately a time loop. It wouldn't be the weirdest thing in the comic. Rotten Red Rod fucked around with this message at 22:00 on Oct 30, 2020 |
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Oct 30, 2020 21:57
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Like, you don't need to be a time travelling wizard to be able to see the big picture here. Many real humans from the reality you and I inhabit have made note of the seemingly unchanging nature of humanity and the immutable cycle of violence (Abaddon being one of them!) without having to have been present to personally witness all of it.
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Oct 30, 2020 21:58
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Besides "we're in a time loop" is a sci-fi idea. "Creation runs in cycles" is a mythic idea.
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Oct 30, 2020 22:02
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Yes, but time travelling wizards are rad and therefore a thing that wouldn't be out of place in this comic. Also it doesn't invalidate the more human-level cycles of violence. One of the big themes of this comic is that even given all this cosmic god poo poo, people and their lives and feelings still matter. So the overarching big reveal being a time loop "cycle of violence" doesn't invalidate all the other smaller "cycles". They're just now cycles within cycles within cycles.
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Oct 30, 2020 22:02
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