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M!
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Oct 30, 2020 20:22
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Nice
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Oct 30, 2020 20:34
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Hey, we did it. Posting Sine Fine.
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Oct 30, 2020 20:36
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Haven't seen a snipe that good since David and Goliath.
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Oct 30, 2020 21:24
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Now that we're in the thousands this should be titled the medieval history thread. Change it to early modern when we get to page 1453.
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Oct 30, 2020 21:36
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1453 is actually where I plan to close and restart the thread. 
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Oct 30, 2020 21:38
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Grand Fromage posted:1453 is actually where I plan to close and restart the thread. 1806 or bust
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Oct 30, 2020 21:44
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Holding out for 1917
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Oct 30, 2020 21:47
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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1204 imo
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Oct 30, 2020 21:50
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1054 Manzikert never forget.
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Oct 30, 2020 22:01
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We need to temporarily close down this thread, take over the milhist thread and the history book threads in the book barn, then stab each other a bunch.
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Oct 30, 2020 22:09
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Should of been back on page 476.
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Oct 30, 2020 22:35
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So Western Historiography generally unanimously agrees the deposing of Romulus Augustulus as the end of Antiquity/Ancient times, and the the Ottomans taking Constantinople as the end of Medieval Times. And yes I am aware that historians now all agree those dates are arbitrary and more for convenience than fact. But when does the Early Modern period end? I've seen three-way divisions where the early modern is up till Westphalia, Late Modern is up till WWI, and Contemporary is up till now. I've seen two-way divisions that use either the French Revolution or Napoleon as the dividing point. And several others. Is there any amount of consensus on this issue? Because I feel like I haven't found two historians who actually agree with each other.
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Oct 30, 2020 23:43
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galagazombie posted:So Western Historiography generally unanimously agrees the deposing of Romulus Augustulus as the end of Antiquity/Ancient times, and the the Ottomans taking Constantinople as the end of Medieval Times. Um. Does it?
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Oct 30, 2020 23:47
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galagazombie posted:So Western Historiography generally unanimously agrees the deposing of Romulus Augustulus as the end of Antiquity/Ancient times, and the the Ottomans taking Constantinople as the end of Medieval Times. And yes I am aware that historians now all agree those dates are arbitrary and more for convenience than fact. But when does the Early Modern period end? I've seen three-way divisions where the early modern is up till Westphalia, Late Modern is up till WWI, and Contemporary is up till now. I've seen two-way divisions that use either the French Revolution or Napoleon as the dividing point. And several others. Is there any amount of consensus on this issue? Because I feel like I haven't found two historians who actually agree with each other. All those divisions are completely arbitrary and are used simply for rhetorical purposes in constructing a narrative. They're going to change depending on the point of view of the writer and the idea or technology arc they're trying to describe. There is no Official Authoritative Department of Assigning Dates to Historical Eras.
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Oct 30, 2020 23:48
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I personally far prefer 1492 as the medieval/early modern divider, over 1453. But I'm just an idiot on the internet Dividing early modern from modern on the basis of wars feels off to me. The economic/technological changes between the 16th century and now far exceed the geopolitical differences. I'd aim for the industrial revolution being the divider, though I wouldn't care to hazard a specific date.
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Oct 30, 2020 23:50
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Yeah none of those are really all that accepted in academia. However to engage the question, I've usually encountered the French Revolution as the early modern/modern divider. Either the beginning of it or Napoleon's final defeat.
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Oct 30, 2020 23:51
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Grand Fromage posted:1453 is actually where I plan to close and restart the thread. Why? I still see Rome on maps, clearly Roman history isn't over. It can make a comeback
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Oct 31, 2020 00:06
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The French Revolution is a political gamechanger in europe - both in geopolitics and how much shift there is in ideological underpinnings of states. It's alot easier to assign to an event than the industrial revolution - which happens but is much more of a slow gradual process spanning before, during, and after the Napoleonic Wars. Wars are only a shifter of eras when they represent a shifting of the ideologies of the states involved, rather than mere possession.
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Oct 31, 2020 00:13
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1848
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Oct 31, 2020 00:16
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1945 for the final defeat of the barbarian German tribes.
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Oct 31, 2020 00:38
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Etymologically, the modern period has already started once the early modern has started (the early bit anyways). The thing about these generally vague historical periods is that even though some people grab onto various delineations to define them, it really doesn't matter where anyone draws the line, so long as they're clear what they're talking about.
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Oct 31, 2020 00:40
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It's also completely based on historiographical tradition, that's going to vary by country and language. French speaking history departments are divided between antiquity, medieval, modern and contemporary sub departments, for example, and I was taught about those as the 4 subdivision of history in primary school.
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Oct 31, 2020 00:44
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to elaborate, i think "post-napoleon" is much too early, the aftershocks of the french revolution were distinctly early modern in character and ultimately monarchism re-established a hold on france and its subsidiary republics. 1848 is when the wheels really start to come off of the old order you're not going to convince me that simon bolivar lived in the "modern era" as opposed to the "early modern"
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Oct 31, 2020 00:45
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Let's just keep it simple and stick to when new metals are introduced.
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Oct 31, 2020 01:19
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The weird thing about the wars of south american independence is that it's after the American Revolution, but there's all these things with stone fortifications and cavalry that weren't really a factor during the American Revolution (I guess because the 13 colonies were poorer and less built up?), and those are things that I'm used to thinking of no longer being such a factor for the modern period.
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Oct 31, 2020 01:36
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SlothfulCobra posted:The weird thing about the wars of south american independence is that it's after the American Revolution, but there's all these things with stone fortifications and cavalry that weren't really a factor during the American Revolution (I guess because the 13 colonies were poorer and less built up?), and those are things that I'm used to thinking of no longer being such a factor for the modern period. well some of this was just lack of arms the legions of hell were cowboy lance cavalry by and large for example. lance cavalry are quite common across the wars of south american independence actually - the complete lack of reliable supply lines for both royalist and patriot forces essentially meant that the fighting was done with the weapons that were already on the continent, which were surprisingly few.
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Oct 31, 2020 02:11
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So many eurocentric dates. Ancient history period would end with the fall of the Tang.
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Oct 31, 2020 02:34
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cheetah7071 posted:I personally far prefer 1492 as the medieval/early modern divider, over 1453. But I'm just an idiot on the internet I'll be spicy and suggest 1517 as a dividing line as that's when you have the proximate cause for colonialism really kick in.
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Oct 31, 2020 02:37
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The modern period starts when firearms first arrive in Europe. Circa 1240
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Oct 31, 2020 02:47
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:1054 Manzikert never forget.  need a smiley like  that's a crying justinian mosaic. make it :1054:, :1204: and :1453:
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Oct 31, 2020 03:32
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Lawman 0 posted:I'll be spicy and suggest 1517 as a dividing line as that's when you have the proximate cause for colonialism really kick in. Do you mind clarifying that? I don't know exactly what you're referring to and I bet it's something super interesting
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Oct 31, 2020 03:33
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Warhammer 40K does it right by having day 0 of their calendar be what we would term August 6th, 1945. That's as unambiguous a marker as you can get.
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Oct 31, 2020 03:38
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cheetah7071 posted:Do you mind clarifying that? I don't know exactly what you're referring to and I bet it's something super interesting 1517 is Martin Luther and his 95 theses, but I don't really see how that's a proximate cause for colonialism.
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Oct 31, 2020 03:44
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Deteriorata posted:1517 is Martin Luther and his 95 theses, but I don't really see how that's a proximate cause for colonialism. One can argue Frederick the Wise has a lot to do with what leads to how we think of modern nation states.
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Oct 31, 2020 04:35
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Deteriorata posted:1517 is Martin Luther and his 95 theses, but I don't really see how that's a proximate cause for colonialism. IO'm guessing it has more to do with this: February 3 – Cairo is captured by the Ottoman Empire, and the Mamluk Sultanate falls.
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Oct 31, 2020 04:37
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Oct 31, 2020 05:53
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Deteriorata posted:All those divisions are completely arbitrary and are used simply for rhetorical purposes in constructing a narrative. They're going to change depending on the point of view of the writer and the idea or technology arc they're trying to describe. That's why I said "Arbitrary and more for convenience than fact". Just that Western Historiography loved those two dates as the dividing points. Even though that way of looking things is no longer taken as gospel by serious historians, it still holds massive weight, even unconsciously, on how people in the West view history.
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Oct 31, 2020 06:21
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Anything where humans have fire is modern history imo
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Oct 31, 2020 07:39
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GoutPatrol posted:Anything where humans have fire is modern history imo Given that fire predates writing this is a bad definition
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Oct 31, 2020 07:41
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