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Majorian posted:I mean, it seems like it's possible to criticize those things without going for the jugular, though. One can criticize the Christian Right without portraying Jesus as a fraud or a drunk or whatever, and one can criticize Islamists or misogyny in the name of Islam without being dickish towards oppressed Muslims in France. That was my question to yikes! and you as well now: If the joke went for the jugular what joke is acceptable? I have a feeling there isn't one. If you could give an example that would be great but I know that's a weird/stupid/difficult ask.
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Oct 30, 2020 04:33
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thehandtruck posted:That was my question to yikes! and you as well now: If the joke went for the jugular what joke is acceptable? I have a feeling there isn't one. If you could give an example that would be great but I know that's a weird/stupid/difficult ask. Go for particular shitheads. Specificity is the key to comedy. If there are specific radical Islamist leaders in France, ridicule them. Odds are they deserve it. V. Illych L. posted:but then it's not the criticism you're worried about it's the vulgarity which makes you pretty much exactly the sort of person CH has been targetting since 1970 Nah, that was more a glib aside. It's the xenophobia I'm concerned with. Majorian fucked around with this message at 04:41 on Oct 30, 2020 |
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Oct 30, 2020 04:35
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V. Illych L. posted:not big on the 'making fun of islam is inherently racist' stance ngl it's the left's equivalent of "criticizing israel is antisemitic!" style logic
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Oct 30, 2020 06:44
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Majorian posted:Go for particular shitheads. Specificity is the key to comedy. If there are specific radical Islamist leaders in France, ridicule them. Odds are they deserve it.
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Oct 30, 2020 06:53
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Majorian posted:They became radicalized partially in response to the xenophobia and structural inequalities they had suffered since birth. Unfortunately, poo poo like this is going to keep happening until someone breaks the cycle.
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Oct 30, 2020 07:12
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Maybe I've forgotten where the argument started, but isn't the current Charlie Hebdo cover about a specific shithead? Sure, except that the butt (lol) of the joke in that picture wasn't Erdogan the tin-pot dictator. It was Erdogan the Muslim. That might seem a trivial difference, but it's not. If we drift from France a little, it very much reminded me of this recent debacle in Sweden:  When you're using a racist caricature to mock a foreign dictator, it becomes very muddy to members who identify as part of that racial group whom is actually is the target of that satire. The artist might think there is a distinction in creating their art, but unfortunately art is something that is defined in being experienced and by the end of the day a racist caricature is still a racist caricature, no matter the context.
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Oct 30, 2020 07:33
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Doctor Jeep posted:it's the left's equivalent of "criticizing israel is antisemitic!" style logic No it isn't lmao. Israel is a state. Since in the context of europe the term muslim has become ethnoreligious it's more equivalent of "making fun of jews as a non-jew is antisemitic". Which i would agree with within this context.
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Oct 30, 2020 09:00
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Treat it the same as white supremacy and christian terrorism. You need to look at who's radicalising these people and why they're vulnerable to radicalisation in the first place, cut off the recruitment and examine the assumptions behind it. For all the people waving and frothing about hard decisions and extreme measures, the real hard thing to do is to make society so that people all feel like a part of it and don't feel the need to shoot at it and blow it up.
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Oct 30, 2020 09:12
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MiddleOne posted:Sure, except that the butt (lol) of the joke in that picture wasn't Erdogan the tin-pot dictator. It was Erdogan the Muslim. That might seem a trivial difference, but it's not. In any case, as a response to Majorian, I guess it should be clarified to either "the specific traits of shitheads" or even "the specific traits of specific shitheads", rather than "specific shitheads" depending on the risk of missing your target and who you'll hit if you do. Which makes sense, because otherwise you could take any generic racist cartoon and label the bad guy with an appropriate name and claim it was just biting satire. generic metric posted:No it isn't lmao. Israel is a state.
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Oct 30, 2020 09:21
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MiddleOne posted:Sure, except that the butt (lol) of the joke in that picture wasn't Erdogan the tin-pot dictator. It was Erdogan the Muslim. That might seem a trivial difference, but it's not. Erdogan the tinpot dictator is inextricably tied with Erdogan the islamist, like what are you even allowed to criticize then? Make fun of the suit he wore last week? Make fun of ISIS, but focus on their grooming habits, not on their politics, that would be rude? Like two posts above somebody said "you are allowed criticize specific individuals for their beliefs", now it"s "well actually you aren't". steinrokkan fucked around with this message at 09:33 on Oct 30, 2020 |
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Oct 30, 2020 09:28
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steinrokkan posted:Erdogan the tinpot dictator is inextricably tied with Erdogan the islamist, like what are you even allowed to criticize then? Make fun of the suit he wore last week? Make fun of ISIS, but focus on their grooming habits, not on their politics, that would be rude?
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Oct 30, 2020 09:40
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my opinion on religion is, it's opium of the masses and must be made fun of at every step, every second of the day, every day of the week i don't see how doing racist caricatures of people does that tho, blame the game not the player e: also erdogan is using islam as means to an end the same way orban is using christianity but i haven't seen calls to do something about those crazy extremists in vatican yet e2: not from people other tham myself anyway 
Truga fucked around with this message at 10:09 on Oct 30, 2020 |
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Oct 30, 2020 09:59
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EU Politics : Arguing about Islam while a pandemic sweeps through the continent again
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Oct 30, 2020 10:35
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I imagine that if you told the CH editors "Your caricature of Erdogan is rude, insensitive, mean, unfunny, and offensive because <literally any reasoning whatsoever>" their response would be "Of course it is! Thank you so much for noticing!". And the only response it would be OK for you to give back is "Well, I'm not going to buy your magazine then, au revoir".
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Oct 30, 2020 11:29
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NihilCredo posted:And the only response it would be OK for you to give back is "Well, I'm not going to buy your magazine then, au revoir". You could curse them out as well, but that's the gist of it.
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Oct 30, 2020 11:39
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Truga posted:my opinion on religion is, it's opium of the masses and must be made fun of at every step, every second of the day, every day of the week You sound like you don't have a clue what Marx was actually saying when he wrote this. Makes me wonder if you've ever even read it in context: https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1843/critique-hpr/intro.htm posted:The foundation of irreligious criticism is: Man makes religion, religion does not make man. Religion is, indeed, the self-consciousness and self-esteem of man who has either not yet won through to himself, or has already lost himself again. But man is no abstract being squatting outside the world. Man is the world of man – state, society. This state and this society produce religion, which is an inverted consciousness of the world, because they are an inverted world. Religion is the general theory of this world, its encyclopaedic compendium, its logic in popular form, its spiritual point d’honneur, its enthusiasm, its moral sanction, its solemn complement, and its universal basis of consolation and justification. It is the fantastic realization of the human essence since the human essence has not acquired any true reality. The struggle against religion is, therefore, indirectly the struggle against that world whose spiritual aroma is religion. Cus you know, if you believe religion is the opium of the people, the sigh of the oppressed, the heart of a heartless world, the soul of soulless conditions... it seems super callous to make fun of it at every step.
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Oct 30, 2020 11:39
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Orange Devil posted:You sound like you don't have a clue what Marx was actually saying when he wrote this. Makes me wonder if you've ever even read it in context: You forgot to read / delete the last paragraph, lol
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Oct 30, 2020 11:42
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A Buttery Pastry posted:But Jewish identity and the state of Israel are massively tied together too, by the exact same people who ensured Muslim functionally became an ethnic term. I don't think the two are as neatly different as your post makes them out to be. For example numerous pro Israel stores have been popping up in the bible belt of the Netherlands lately. Christians there are supporting them, but they really don't care about jewish people on a personal level. And it's not just christians but also libs that use Israel as a tool to this way. These people do see a difference between Israel and the jewish people. In any case we're not dealing with states here but with minority groups within European countries, it's weird to conflate these two.
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Oct 30, 2020 11:46
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steinrokkan posted:You forgot to read / delete the last paragraph, lol OK?
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Oct 30, 2020 11:46
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Orange Devil posted:You sound like you don't have a clue what Marx was actually saying when he wrote this. Makes me wonder if you've ever even read it in context: Thanks for posting this, I had never read it and it's good to see it context. Also, it aligns really well with my own thoughts on religion vs organized religion.
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Oct 30, 2020 11:58
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steinrokkan posted:You forgot to read / delete the last paragraph, lol The point as written there is that criticising religion is ineffective at best and mean-spirited at worst since you're trying to address a symptom rather than a cause. There's a reason that religiosity went down in most countries where material conditions improved, until and unless rising inequality reversed that tide.
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Oct 30, 2020 12:03
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Orange Devil posted:You sound like you don't have a clue what Marx was actually saying when he wrote this. Makes me wonder if you've ever even read it in context: hey we all criticise things in our own way, i make fun of the inconsistencies and contradictions of superstition, you can do something else i won't judge
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Oct 30, 2020 12:29
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generic metric posted:A big number of the "exact same people" you mentioned often support Israel because of the islamophobia, but are still anti-semitic. generic metric posted:In any case we're not dealing with states here but with minority groups within European countries, it's weird to conflate these two.
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Oct 30, 2020 12:30
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Osmosisch posted:The point as written there is that criticising religion is ineffective at best and mean-spirited at worst since you're trying to address a symptom rather than a cause. And throughout the process the religious authorities had to be fought every step of the way to replace them to make them loose their hold on the public. It wasn't a conflict-less, consensual process, and it's abundantly clear the quote itself points towards that.
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Oct 30, 2020 12:32
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For everyone convinced that this caricature business is totally divorced from racism, I'm just gonna casually remind everyone that Kurt Westergaard's other, less famous Muslim drawing was a niqabi pregnant with a bomb.
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Oct 30, 2020 13:47
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Does the reason matter? If you have a bunch of people convincing the populace that Muslim = ethnically [terrorist/moocher/wife beater] and[ Jewish = loyal to Israel, then that's the context any kind of criticism or satire exists in. That it's bullshit perpetuated by people who know it's not true doesn't really change that. Muslims are a marginalised group within France and have become an ethnoreligious group which you seem to agree with. Israel is not a marginalised entity within France, in fact is applauded by many, while Jewish people are a minority group. Like it is ok to criticize the actions of KSA, Turkey, Iran, Israel etc., but for example the piece they made about how the drowned refugee kid would have become a wife beater? Saying islamophobia is the same as criticizing Israel is a dumb cop out.
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Oct 30, 2020 13:52
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well yeah he's an rear end in a top hat i don't think anyone's particularly disputing that it's possible to be unacceptably bigoted in one's 'criticism' of islam, the issue as i understand it is at the opposite end - to what extent is negativity towards islam necessarily intertwined with ethnic animosity towards people of mainly MENA origin in the west? even granted that westergaard's stuff is just nasty, is it acceptable to use it in an educational setting? this is important since it got a dude killed and imo it has to be - this is one of the big culture wars of our time and there's a lot of teachable moments in it
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Oct 30, 2020 13:56
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V. Illych L. posted:to what extent is negativity towards islam necessarily intertwined with ethnic animosity towards people of mainly MENA origin in the west? well if you listened to people from that origin you would find that yes it is definitely intertwined did you try listening to that community or are you just using your own superior LOGIC and REASON?
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Oct 30, 2020 14:07
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generic metric posted:It's not about who's loyal to who, it's about whether the satire of charlie hebdo is hate speech or in other words if it is bigoted against a marginalised group within France. V. Illych L. posted:not big on the 'making fun of islam is inherently racist' stance ngl Doctor Jeep posted:it's the left's equivalent of "criticizing israel is antisemitic!" style logic
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Oct 30, 2020 14:10
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ah i guess things do happen in a vacuum, thanks for clearing that up op
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Oct 30, 2020 14:13
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generic metric posted:ah i guess things do happen in a vacuum, thanks for clearing that up op
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Oct 30, 2020 14:31
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V. Illych L. posted:well yeah he's an rear end in a top hat Seeing as "common knowledge" of the whole Jyllands-Posten fiasco is rife with abject falsehoods*, teachable is probably not the best word to use. *Author Kåre Bluitgen didn't have difficulty finding illustrators for his Muhammad biography for children, he had asked exactly three artists. His book depicting Muhammad was later released without incident. *It wasn't a competition, the drawings were commissioned and Westergaard worked for JP. A very small minority of the 40+ artists asked by JP rejected the offer citing fear of reprisals. *JP had spent the previous decade providing a platform for every anti-Muslim voice in the country, including fundamentalist Lutherans, actual race theorists and everything in between. *As pointed out earlier, the infamous troupe of imams didn't try to fool anyone with fake drawings. That would also imply such drawings could cross a line. *The 11 ambassadors that the PM told to gently caress off when they requested a meeting did not demand legal measures be taken against JP. The Islamic Society had already tried that avenue under the hate speech and blasphemy laws and were rejected. V. Illych L. posted:to what extent is negativity towards islam necessarily intertwined with ethnic animosity towards people of mainly MENA origin in the west? That Venn diagram is pretty much just a circle. Edit: In the public debate, I mean. SplitSoul fucked around with this message at 17:45 on Oct 30, 2020 |
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Oct 30, 2020 14:43
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Glah posted:Like you say, that's part of the reason but far away from the whole truth. Let's take a look at arguably the most shat upon people by European societies, the Roma. There aren't extremists among them doing terror attacks against innocents while suffering from grave injustices. Are you sure about that?
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Oct 30, 2020 21:34
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SplitSoul posted:For everyone convinced that this caricature business is totally divorced from racism, I'm just gonna casually remind everyone that Kurt Westergaard's other, less famous Muslim drawing was a niqabi pregnant with a bomb. I searched for that drawing and couldn’t find anything. You sure it’s the same guy?
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Oct 31, 2020 03:56
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Bholder posted:Are you sure about that? What are you referring to?
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Oct 31, 2020 06:46
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Shaocaholica posted:I searched for that drawing and couldn’t find anything. You sure it’s the same guy? Absolutely. He showed it off in a documentary at the time. He also spoke at a Danish People's Party conference. 
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Oct 31, 2020 09:57
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generic metric posted:well if you listened to people from that origin you would find that yes it is definitely intertwined That's unfortunate but there's no practical way to deal with that in legal terms. Unlike race or ethnicity religion can have social, cultural and moral values that can be and is used to, among other things, persecute and ostracize minorities. We need to be able to discuss, and yes mock, not just those values and the people who advocate them but also the religious frameworks they are couched in and are used to justify them.
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Oct 31, 2020 10:32
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That would be a concern if Islam was the majority religion but, in Europe, it is not.
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Oct 31, 2020 11:34
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Kassad posted:That would be a concern if Islam was the majority religion but, in Europe, it is not. When a religious leader pushes regressive and oppressive views I'm concerned whatever number of people he speaks to. It may harm relatively few people but that's cold comfort to the people it does harm.
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Oct 31, 2020 12:06
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Owling Howl posted:That's unfortunate but there's no practical way to deal with that in legal terms. It really is telling that you just label it as "unfortunate" and idgaf about liberal legal terms. Owling Howl posted:Unlike race or ethnicity religion can have social, cultural and moral values that can be and is used to, among other things, persecute and ostracize minorities. We need to be able to discuss, and yes mock, not just those values and the people who advocate them but also the religious frameworks they are couched in and are used to justify them. Nobody said religion can never be mocked. What I am saying is islamophobia and racism go hand in hand in certain countries like let's say.... France where muslims and people with MENA origin are actively oppressed or worse. Fash use anti-religion as a dog whistle in these countries and you libs are falling for it.
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Oct 31, 2020 12:12
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