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Look if I'm playing z Ikit Claw I'm gonna bling out my army to flaunt my wealth that I stole from Bretonnia. I always like having some anti large elite infantry on my flanks. Theyre about the only infantry that have any use in a game that has rapidly become dominated by ranged combat.
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Oct 31, 2020 00:01
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See, the solution here is to use the Skryre Shockvermin mod, which lets you recruit Stormvermin that have specialized Skryre equipment (ie. halberds that fire off poison wind globes at enemies) for thematic consistency.
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Oct 31, 2020 00:32
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toasterwarrior posted:See, the solution here is to use the Skryre Shockvermin mod, which lets you recruit Stormvermin that have specialized Skryre equipment (ie. halberds that fire off poison wind globes at enemies) for thematic consistency. https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2117295770 My God you weren't kidding. I imagine this would be like a squad of ironbreakers throwing satchel charges in terms of murderous war criming.
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Oct 31, 2020 01:43
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Arcsquad12 posted:https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2117295770 Hah, well, not really. They shoot poison wind globes, not death globes, so they'll shitcan large targets and stab any survivors. Infantry won't be as brutalized, but that's what the rest of your army is for...
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Oct 31, 2020 02:02
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Arcsquad12 posted:Look if I'm playing z Yeah :/ its a bit disappointing that infantry aren't all that viable by themselves, but at least both ranged and cavalry are!
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Oct 31, 2020 02:14
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The only infantry worth a drat are so slow they might as well be dwarfs and get blown to bits on the advance, or theyre hybrid units like the elf factions have. Shades are nearly as good as sisters of avelorn but they use good old armor piercing instead of magic so they're good for most enemies.
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Oct 31, 2020 02:22
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In all honesty, I think the Skryre Shockvermin are nice but are ultimately pointless when Doomflayers can be upgraded to obscene heights thanks to the Workshop, and taking more guns is still ultimately the best way to kill large targets. Modder should see about adding them to the Skryre Workshop to get some equally bullshit upgrades, IMO. And I still want my Warp Lightning Cannon Workshop upgrades mod, dammit. I don't give a poo poo about balance, Ikit's charm is that he's intentionally broken as poo poo because he's literally surrounded by enemies.
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Oct 31, 2020 03:22
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhzvvHCsC7w
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Oct 31, 2020 03:44
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Got a Dwarf campaign to the point where I can recruit high tier units for the first time, and I'm unsure what to do. What should Grombrindal's stack look like? the only units I can't recruit are Gyrobombers and Flame Cannon. Right now I've got a Runesmith, 2 Longbeard (GW), 2 Longbeard, 3 Warriors, 2 Miners (BC), 2 Thunderers, 3 Quarrelers, 1 Irondrakes (Best unit, allowed me to survive the early turns almost single-handedly), 1 Gyrocopter, and 2 Grudge Throwers. What, exactly, are the benefits of Hammerers and Ironbreakers, and should I be bringing them instead of Warriors?
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Oct 31, 2020 08:37
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Hammerers are not worth it, the main function of your melee line is to hold them while thunderers and artillery kill - you want the most durable front line possible, melee infantry is not for killing in factions that have good ranged options. But, also, the game is kind of not hard even on legendary once you play enough to learn the ai's bad habits, so making cool theme armies is a good way to add a bit of variety and challenge. Hammerers are not bad at all, they are just not needed in the best general purpose vanilla dwarf army.
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Oct 31, 2020 09:27
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Hammerers are designed to have actual DPS, unlike the rest of the dwarven frontline. They're not terrible, but they don't really fit with the dwarf ethos. Ironbreakers are maybe the best defensive units in the game. They just stand there and don't die, and let your guns do their work.
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Oct 31, 2020 10:50
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I'm doing my first ever Dwarf campaign (Grombrindal) and I cannot loving believe what a pain in the rear end these quests are. Win two battles against Norsca? Forge an alliance with The Huntsmarshal's Expedition? I'm on turn 116, power rank 1 and I haven't even met any of them! I have two quests to beat up on Greenskins and every single major Greenskin faction is already wiped off the map. I could probably have completed one of them if I had prioritized it but I didn't give enough of a poo poo to go hunt Azhag when I hadn't confederated either of my northern Dwarf neighbors yet so it was out of the way. The second one I didn't even get until after it was too late. And this is just quests from only two LLs lol. It's not even a game 1 thing, Empire and VC had easy peasy, if occasionally tedious, quests.
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Oct 31, 2020 10:52
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Insurrectionist posted:I'm doing my first ever Dwarf campaign (Grombrindal) and I cannot loving believe what a pain in the rear end these quests are. Win two battles against Norsca? Forge an alliance with The Huntsmarshal's Expedition? I'm on turn 116, power rank 1 and I haven't even met any of them! I have two quests to beat up on Greenskins and every single major Greenskin faction is already wiped off the map. I could probably have completed one of them if I had prioritized it but I didn't give enough of a poo poo to go hunt Azhag when I hadn't confederated either of my northern Dwarf neighbors yet so it was out of the way. The second one I didn't even get until after it was too late. And this is just quests from only two LLs lol. The game 1 quests were all over the place in ability to realistically do them organically, some of them are "move any character to this region you start next to" or "build this thing you will always build" while others are "declare war on your greatest ally against chaos, Kislev, and sack their capital" or "move a character 50 turns across the map while paying upkeep for it the entire time it's doing nothing but discovering enemies to declare war on you" or "use this specific agent action on this specific thing, oh and the agent is from a t4 building and you'd rather use it in combat" Though in the end the items aren't going to be the deciding factor in battles with your op legendary lords, but it's sometimes nice for min-maxing their stats or items with global bonuses.
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Oct 31, 2020 11:12
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Insurrectionist posted:I'm doing my first ever Dwarf campaign (Grombrindal) and I cannot loving believe what a pain in the rear end these quests are. Win two battles against Norsca? Forge an alliance with The Huntsmarshal's Expedition? I'm on turn 116, power rank 1 and I haven't even met any of them! I have two quests to beat up on Greenskins and every single major Greenskin faction is already wiped off the map. I could probably have completed one of them if I had prioritized it but I didn't give enough of a poo poo to go hunt Azhag when I hadn't confederated either of my northern Dwarf neighbors yet so it was out of the way. The second one I didn't even get until after it was too late. And this is just quests from only two LLs lol. I don't have the link handy, but I simply will not play without the "instant quest items" mod.
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Oct 31, 2020 11:31
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Hammerers are really good if you're fighting other Dwarfs, but that's vanishingly unlikely to happen by the time you can even get Hammerers in a campaign.
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Oct 31, 2020 15:04
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Hammerers are decent against Chaos as an armored AP frontline since they don’t have to worry about incoming ranged fire
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Oct 31, 2020 15:35
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Hammerers are fine they just have the same problem all elite infantry do in single player where when you ramp up the battle difficulty goblins start going toe to toe with them because of melee attack and defence and morale bonuses
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Oct 31, 2020 15:55
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I usually go for a spread out hero front line to blob for my thunderers to just wreck, a couple units of anti-large for the flanks, and 5-6 grudgethrowers.
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Oct 31, 2020 16:38
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Infantry is in a sad place. Mostly because ranged and artillery is overpowered. In addition to magic being easy to use on infantry blobs. Don't think they can fix it though. Not even in warhammer 3. My wish is that they fix sieges. Holy poo poo they are boring.
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Nov 1, 2020 01:55
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Infantry feels a bit better in mods so it's a problem that can be solved, for example playing SFO lately and the more elite or meatier infantry get much more mass and knockdown resistance and shields have much higher missile block %, in vanilla shields don't do nearly enough against overwhelming missile spam. One example is the marauders, they all get a ability called "weather the storm" where they have 20% missile resistance when not in melee and the champions have a juggernaut trait that makes them hard to knock down, which in turn though makes cavalry charges feel worse because they don't send anyone flying. It's a weird balance to strike where people want their infantry to survive and matter while at the same time aren't satisfied if heavy cavalry don't instantly delete anything they charge into.
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Nov 1, 2020 02:14
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Ra Ra Rasputin posted:It's a weird balance to strike where people want their infantry to survive and matter while at the same time aren't satisfied if heavy cavalry don't instantly delete anything they charge into.
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Nov 1, 2020 02:57
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i'm currently romping around with repanse and an army of errantry and it's loving hysterical they're paper thin and get wrecked immediately if they get bogged down but they're so goddamned mobile and have such massive charge bonusses that you just keep them wheeling and charging and nothing can stop them
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Nov 1, 2020 06:33
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infantry is fine, useful, and balanced in multiplayer. single player will never be balanced and you can win by spamming infantry if you want because the ai sucks, unless you're playing hard but why would you make it so that goblins are ironbreakers. the current situation is fine imo.
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Nov 1, 2020 07:18
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I'm pretty convinced that anyone playing on hard or above for battle difficulty just needs to go ahead and mod the game properly, because CA have no idea how the gently caress to do it.
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Nov 1, 2020 12:13
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What would be a better way to make battles more difficult? Maybe just a straight %boost to enemy hp?
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Nov 1, 2020 13:27
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Honestly, reduce how effective ranged units are rather than gimp your infantry line and see how that goes? I'd like to see them make the AI smarter but that won't happen, but reducing the effectiveness of mass fire on a single target would do a lot to stop "hard difficulty = archer spam". Even a buff on units that are getting hit by too many arrows might be an idea. I just hate that i can't whack up battle difficulty up a little bit because i actually like using infantry.
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Nov 1, 2020 13:38
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Refried Noodle posted:What would be a better way to make battles more difficult? Maybe just a straight %boost to enemy hp? And increase block chance for AI shielded units and give some innate missile resistance and speed to non shielded infantry. In addition, give all ranged units shittier morale, hp and accuracy so that they actually need to make themselves vulnerable via positioning to rain down damage.
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Nov 1, 2020 13:43
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Hryme posted:Infantry is in a sad place. Mostly because ranged and artillery is overpowered. In addition to magic being easy to use on infantry blobs. Don't think they can fix it though. Not even in warhammer 3. My wish is that they fix sieges. Holy poo poo they are boring. I think the balance is fixable. I like the idea of someone had about flipping the effects of heavy and light infantry from Troy and making heavy infantry insanely vulnerable while on the move and from the side and rear especially while making light infantry able to be flanked without much penalty so you can move them around fast to screen and flank the heavy infantry blocks that really anchor your lines. That keeps the infantry/cavalry balance a bit because I do think it's hard to find a balance where cavalry charges feel impactful without also making them really overpowered. Ranged can also be fixed. People claim SFO does it. I think making it as simple as removing almost all arcing fire and giving ranged fire damage falloff and accuracy penalties at longer range would do it. Both help keep them effective at close range (and so at risk) while reducing their ability to quickly focus-fire important targets. Also, by forcing them to have direct line of sight, you either force them into the open (and thus vulnerable) or make them only do damage at the beginning of combat (and so less deadly). And by reducing the damage at range, you make it so you can maneuver a bit even while still taking damage, because its lighter. Walking into range of a gun battery at absolutely maximum range should be a lot less damaging that at close range. Bows having longer range gives them a niche compared to guns, too. e: As an example, I see something like a heavy infantry taking double flanking penalties, but formations to give them variations on "brace for charging" or "brace for arrows" that give them some amount of charge deflect/reflect and missile block chance depending on their gear, maybe with speed reductions. If you wanted, you could give some a formation that removes the double flanking penalty I suppose, but no other effects. Light infantry being able to get charged or fired upon without being in fixed formation means you can move them around to absorb charges and ranged fire, and maybe still kill things, but they wouldn't fare as well as heavy infantry , but are more flexible too. Make infantry a bit more interesting to use and reduce the ability of archers to focus-fire on key targets. Ravenfood fucked around with this message at 14:24 on Nov 1, 2020 |
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Nov 1, 2020 13:59
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Yes what I meant was that I don't think CA is going to fix it. Because it would need a drastic rebalance. And even with the balance we have now Warhammer I and II are extremely popular and it is difficult to predict if the userbase actually want sweeping changes. And it would be a hard task as they would have to revisit every race and faction in this kind of update not just one or two of them.
Hryme fucked around with this message at 17:52 on Nov 1, 2020 |
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Nov 1, 2020 16:50
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 OK, I'm going to jump in and say the whole high battle difficulty makes melee useless is overblown and a meme. It absolutely does not turn AI low tier units into high tier units. Very Hard battles gives AI +10 morale (and -4 to you) 1.2x melee defense 1.15x melee attack / charge / damage So basic goblins go from a statline of 50 Lead / 20 Attack / 26 Defense / 25 Damage to 60 Lead / 23 Attack / 31 Defense / 29 Damage That's still doing jack poo poo against higher tier infantry, e.g. ironbreakers with 81 Lead (85-4) / 30 Attack / 68 Defense / 32 Damage (and 125 armor) However! Note that high campaign difficulties gives the AI bonuses to unit XP gain (to the tune of ~a level per 2 turns on legendary)! And I think that's where the perception is coming from. That's an additional +10 morale, and +9 attack/defense (plus the bonus). That does turn gobbos into an approximation of a newbie high tier infantry. 70 Lead / 33 Attack / 42 Defense / 29 Damage So it's not battle difficulty that's doing it, it's the AI experience bonus on legendary and not comparing apples to apples (similarly experienced units). Of course, moot point since AI is poo poo and ranged/monsters better abuse the AI anyway. Endorph posted:infantry is fine, useful, and balanced in multiplayer. single player will never be balanced and you can win by spamming infantry if you want because the ai sucks, unless you're playing hard but why would you make it so that goblins are ironbreakers. the current situation is fine imo. terrorist ambulance posted:Hammerers are fine they just have the same problem all elite infantry do in single player where when you ramp up the battle difficulty goblins start going toe to toe with them because of melee attack and defence and morale bonuses
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Nov 1, 2020 18:25
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Yeah upping the difficulty just makes the AI not as easy to chain route in three minutes
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Nov 1, 2020 18:47
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The balance issue is not that melee/cav can't compete with other melee/cav. It is that ranged and artillery is a lot more effective at dealing damage. All individual units in a ranged are able to apply their damage potential as long as something is in range (and los for guns and cannon type units) but even when fighting only the melee that is in direct contact with other units are able to apply damage. And while doing damage they are also most of the time taking damage. It is a lot less efficient. Best earlygame stacks for most factions are some blockers and then fill out the rest with the best ranged/artillery you can cram into your army. F.ex gobbo archers are more effective damage dealers than orc big uns. To even it out they would have to reduce the damage of ranged by a lot. That being said I only play on very hard/very hard and always use mixed stacks. And I am doing ok. So it is not crippling as I am not even that good at the game. And multiplayer is of course a completely different game because there you actually have to protect your ranged units. As an example look at the composition that Legend of Total War is using in his Grom campaign today: 
Hryme fucked around with this message at 19:39 on Nov 1, 2020 |
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Nov 1, 2020 18:59
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Very hard and legendary dont ruin infantry but you're not going to be fighting armies of goblins on Legendary. The money buffs the AI get are so insane they'll be rolling with multiple top tier armies, not trash mobs. And those infantry buffs play more with the elite units.
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Nov 1, 2020 19:15
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Guns and artillery still wreck them.
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Nov 1, 2020 19:19
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I mean the problem with single player is that the ideal stack is like, 18 shades or sisters of avelorn or waywatchers arranged in a checkerboard with a melee lord to screen and a magic user. I'm not sure the ai would be capable of beating that short of like maybe a 20 necrofex stack or something. Ranged just punches way above its weight both at the tactical and strategic level because they don't suffer much "losses" other than ammo, which replenishes automatically, compared to top tier melee units which still usually lose models even when they have decisive wins. But ranged only poo poo isn't super fun
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Nov 1, 2020 19:20
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Give ammo replenishment and set it to 0 if you are in enemy territory. Bam, done
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Nov 1, 2020 19:27
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Devorum posted:Got a Dwarf campaign to the point where I can recruit high tier units for the first time, and I'm unsure what to do. What should Grombrindal's stack look like? the only units I can't recruit are Gyrobombers and Flame Cannon. Thane Master Engineer 5 Ironbreakers 4 Thunderers 2 Quarrellers 1 Irondrakes 3-4 Organ Guns 1-2 Grudge Throwers Is a pretty good general-purpose stack. The Ironbreakers are there to hold the line while your range units shoot/BBQ stuff. Put them in squares or thick rectangles and leave space between them so the guns and flamethrowers have clear lines of fire into the melee. Gromby and the Thane should get +melee defence items from loot or the Forge. Get Ironwarden's Tankards asap, because those give regen, which is super-powerful. They do the same job as Ironbreakers - a brick wall that ties up units while your ranged shoots in. Because they're single-entity units, you can fire your artillery and Irondrakes directly into the melee without damaging them, which will produce enjoyable results. (Use ground targeting when you do this with the arty). Most of your killing power will come from ranged units. Thunderers are good against anything, but especially armoured units, enemy characters, monsters, small models and the like. Quarrellers are good at clearing walls in siege battles, or for firing into things if your Thunderers can't see because of terrain / obstruction. Organ Guns will delete pretty much any unit you point them at in short order so use them to kill the enemy's best units on the way in, and then to blast whatever's fighting Grombrindal and your Thane. You can fire them into melee units that are mobbing your Ironbreakers, but you need to be careful about angles when you do it to avoid killing too many of your own guys - use ground targeting. Grudge Throwers make sure you outrange enemy artillery, which will force them to come to you. They're also good at firing into enemy units fighting Grombrindal or your Thane, and can be good in sieges for firing at enemies on/inside the walls. The Engineer is there to buff all your ranged units with Standardised Firing Drill, Requisition, Triangulation and Extra Powder. His attacks aren't very flashy but he'll rack up a fair few kills over the course of a battle by taking potshots at whatever's in range. Zephro fucked around with this message at 23:10 on Nov 1, 2020 |
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Nov 1, 2020 22:00
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I've said this before but you need only look at how warfare in real life evolved to see that ranged combat is ultimately more efficient than melee combat.
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Nov 2, 2020 02:41
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toasterwarrior posted:I've said this before but you need only look at how warfare in real life evolved to see that ranged combat is ultimately more efficient than melee combat. i'm an irl khorne champion and i think you'll find you're mistaken
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Nov 2, 2020 02:46
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| # ? Jun 7, 2024 19:41 |
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toasterwarrior posted:I've said this before but you need only look at how warfare in real life evolved to see that ranged combat is ultimately more efficient than melee combat. i'm a grail knight irl come say that poo poo to my face you little bitch i'll trample u
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Nov 2, 2020 03:08
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