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skaianDestiny posted:The point isn't that Daniel probably couldn't block Jagg's swing without dying immediately, the point is that Don's HARD MAN MAKING HARD DECISIONS justification for ruling did nothing to change how he could not protect his citizens from being obliterated by Jagganoth. There are a ton of lesser threats in the K6BD universe, and Solomon seems to have been doing a decent job of keeping them from loving up the day-to-day lives of his citizens.
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Oct 31, 2020 18:06
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Dead Reckoning posted:I think we've established that Solomon is Not The Best, but if stopping Jagganoth from loving things up was within his personal span of control, Dave wouldn't have spent the last few books threatening, cajoling, and begging the other demiurges to take the possibility of having to team up against Jaggs seriously. I don't think that order got out given the range of Jagganoth's destruction. People are dying.
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Oct 31, 2020 18:48
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Dead Reckoning posted:It's not really a good criticism, because I don't think that social democracy or even Gog's collectivist carnival of mandatory happiness would be able to protect people from Jagganoth, the personification of the eschaton. If your justification for putting someone in a chokehold and strangling them is that it's the only way you can protect them from having their throat slit, and then despite all your power and effort they still get their throat slit, then maybe you shouldn't have put them in a chokehold in the first place. Solomon's citizens may have marginally better lives than those in the other demiurges' realms, but that doesn't mean they still don't suffer under his rule. Or do I need to remind you about the 2 women he found arguing, which lead to half the participants in that situation getting executed. The entire loving point of the previous book was that Solomon's justification for his brutal regime is that it's the only way to protect his people, yet there are other ways of providing that same protection without choking them under a dictatorship. skaianDestiny fucked around with this message at 20:45 on Oct 31, 2020 |
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Oct 31, 2020 20:41
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Like Jesus Christ Solomon's entire spiel is that He is Great, He is Powerful, He is the Only Thing Protecting Rayuba and that's his justification for why he has to face stomp everyone. And yet when push comes to shove, he was not powerful enough to protect Rayuba without compromising himself and his ability. He's a poser, in the sense that he said statements that he couldn't end up back up with his ability or crafting himself a legend that he could not live up to. Of course Solomon had no choice to dodge, of course he's not powerful enough to facetank one of Jagg's blows. Yet by dodging the attack and it annihilating a portion of Rayuba, he shows how his entire philosophy and justification of rule is nothing more than hot wind. Solomon is too weak to defend Rayuba, yet he justified the cruelties he inflicts with his personal power. The fact that Abaddon specifically had Jagganoth attack Solomon, the fact that the attack specifically ended up hitting the city, the fact that he specifically drew attention to the fact that people died as a result of that, is, what I believe, to be a another refutation of Solomon's philosophy in addition to showing how gently caress powerful Jagganoth is. skaianDestiny fucked around with this message at 22:40 on Oct 31, 2020 |
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Oct 31, 2020 21:19
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It's also Jagganoth showing Solomon that he can't Ki Rata his way out of this problem - if he doesn't go strength to strength with the Red God, his people will pay the price. (They'd pay it anyway, but this gets it over with faster.)
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Oct 31, 2020 21:40
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skaianDestiny posted:I never said that? I was responding to SniperWoreConverse posted:1: the "good king" solomon saves himself at the expense of his own innocent people. He could have blocked that and chose not to. which I now realize I misquoted.
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Oct 31, 2020 23:39
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God drat y’all are reading way too much into this. Not everything has to be a firm comment on the state of the world. Solomon has been able to defend his people for X centuries because he built a system that could withstand all but a literal god coming in and raining havok. Sure the people at the brunt end of the attack by jagganoth died but you have to remember that there are literally 111,111 worlds under his protection all of which have at least a million people. Is his method the best? No. But when he was warned of an impending attack he immediately thought of the innocents in the city and declared war on the aggressor. All the demiurges suck but honestly dave sucks the least of what we’ve seen.
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Oct 31, 2020 23:45
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Everyone is saying 777,777 worlds, but I thought it was 777,777 universes? Which just makes the struggle to own 111,111 more insane, since even in their thousands of years of life the demiurges have only ever sipped the froth off the mug of the multiverse
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Nov 1, 2020 00:06
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Scrree posted:Everyone is saying 777,777 worlds, but I thought it was 777,777 universes? Which just makes the struggle to own 111,111 more insane, since even in their thousands of years of life the demiurges have only ever sipped the froth off the mug of the multiverse 777,777 universes, yes, but each of those can vary wildly in form. Some of them are like ours, holding galaxies of hundreds of millions of stars. Others are a single world orbited by a sun, with the stars as twinkling lights in a sphere around the planet. Others are an infinite flat plane. It depends on the story the god decided to tell.
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Nov 1, 2020 00:10
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TK-42-1 posted:God drat y’all are reading way too much into this. Not everything has to be a firm comment on the state of the world. Solomon has been able to defend his people for X centuries because he built a system that could withstand all but a literal god coming in and raining havok. Sure the people at the brunt end of the attack by jagganoth died but you have to remember that there are literally 111,111 worlds under his protection all of which have at least a million people. Is his method the best? No. But when he was warned of an impending attack he immediately thought of the innocents in the city and declared war on the aggressor. Yeah, Solomon David is so far the only one actually trying to fight the invader. He is so far not perfectly defending the city but he's putting in the effort. That said, he is a tyrant who justifies his rule on his ability to protect the city - his practical inability to do that, despite his intent to do so, defies his justification for ruling his worlds. That said in turn, his rule was already shaken by White Chain. She scored a hit on him, called him out on his tyranny, and challenged him to abdicate. The justification for his rule might not be relevant now anyway, even if Rayuba survives the conflict.
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Nov 1, 2020 00:46
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anyone else notice that all of jag's swords are activated in the last panel? rayuba bout to get ultra fukt
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Nov 1, 2020 05:19
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Scrree posted:Everyone is saying 777,777 worlds, but I thought it was 777,777 universes? Which just makes the struggle to own 111,111 more insane, since even in their thousands of years of life the demiurges have only ever sipped the froth off the mug of the multiverse "World" pretty clearly means multiple things in KSBD, depending on context. It can mean all of existence, it can mean an entire universe, it can mean a single world. Seeing as the setting is a multiverse, it's mostly likely the 777,777 are entire universes, not just planets.
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Nov 1, 2020 06:39
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Rotten Red Rod posted:"World" pretty clearly means multiple things in KSBD, depending on context. It can mean all of existence, it can mean an entire universe, it can mean a single world. Seeing as the setting is a multiverse, it's mostly likely the 777,777 are entire universes, not just planets. Again, Abaddon explained each "world" can vary in what it actually is. https://killsixbilliondemons.tumblr.com/post/166583026645/in-the-ksbd-multiverse-is-it-one-gate-per skaianDestiny fucked around with this message at 08:10 on Nov 1, 2020 |
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Nov 1, 2020 08:07
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skaianDestiny posted:...
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Nov 1, 2020 08:09
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Dead Reckoning posted:So if Dave could keep Jagganoth from doing extreme urban renewal on Rayuba, he would be justified in his cruelty? Because that feels like a weird distinction to draw. By his own standards, yes. The important part is that by his very own metric he failed.
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Nov 1, 2020 08:12
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Also he ordered the city evacuated when Jadis showed up, there might not have been people in that bit Jaggs sword hit. Maybe.
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Nov 1, 2020 08:36
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Flesnolk posted:Also he ordered the city evacuated when Jadis showed up, there might not have been people in that bit Jaggs sword hit. That happened maybe 5-10 minutes ago. He also shouted the order to a coliseum that then got nuke sworded so word may not have gone out, though I'm guessing people watching the Gogscast have seen it. Still not a lot you can do in 10 minutes if you're a regular citizen.
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Nov 1, 2020 08:53
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Come to think of it, aren’t all of Dave’s sons (or at least those who were in attendance) scorch marks on the ground now, too? So in the space of a few minutes, he has failed on pretty much every single metric by his own standards. I’m wondering if Jagg is going to bring that up very shortly to mentally break him.
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Nov 1, 2020 10:02
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Regalingualius posted:Come to think of it, aren’t all of Dave’s sons (or at least those who were in attendance) scorch marks on the ground now, too? Yeah, unless some of them were offworld or home sick or something literally all of his sons are now ash and rubble. The chain of events was also Solomon calls for evacuation-> Jagganoth Cuts his way into the world and splits atoms in the process immediately afterwards, so anyone outside the stadium's likely just going "what the gently caress is going on over there?" and has no clue they need to run away right the gently caress now.
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Nov 1, 2020 10:25
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Neddy Seagoon posted:Yeah, unless some of them were offworld or home sick or something literally all of his sons are now ash and rubble. Wasn't the whole event being broadcast across the multiverse by Gog? That would include the evacuation order.
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Nov 1, 2020 12:36
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skaianDestiny posted:777,777 universes, yes, but each of those can vary wildly in form. Some of them are like ours, holding galaxies of hundreds of millions of stars. Others are a single world orbited by a sun, with the stars as twinkling lights in a sphere around the planet. Others are an infinite flat plane. It depends on the story the god decided to tell. Must suck to get stuck with the keys to a bunch of universes that just contain like a single rock or a nice house or something.
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Nov 1, 2020 13:42
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GunnerJ posted:Must suck to get stuck with the keys to a bunch of universes that just contain like a single rock or a nice house or something. That would be an interesting side story. A demiurge with keys to these useless places, key word of "bullshit". "You want to know what my largest world is? An unending plane of farting asses. Just rear end and gas as far as the eye can see! What kind of rear end in a top hat God tells that story?!"
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Nov 1, 2020 14:21
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That question seems to answer itself 
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Nov 1, 2020 14:23
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GunnerJ posted:Must suck to get stuck with the keys to a bunch of universes that just contain like a single rock or a nice house or something. Imagine if the rock were particularly sharp though
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Nov 1, 2020 15:11
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Metatron Lied about the nature of creation. The multiverse is not a division of Yisun: It is sharp rocks all the way down.
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Nov 1, 2020 18:38
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GunnerJ posted:Must suck to get stuck with the keys to a bunch of universes that just contain like a single rock or a nice house or something. Considering the insanity of trying to rule 111,111 universes, having a few easy ones probably make for a nice break.
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Nov 1, 2020 18:38
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JustaDamnFool posted:Considering the insanity of trying to rule 111,111 universes, having a few easy ones probably make for a nice break. Wearily opening the gate to a new universe, dreading the slog of another conquest, only to be pleasantly surprised that it's just a big chain restaurant franchise and all you need to do is bully the general manager into accepting you as the new corporate overlord.
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Nov 1, 2020 19:32
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Neddy Seagoon posted:Yeah, unless some of them were offworld or home sick or something literally all of his sons are now ash and rubble. This is trivial but he's had at least 26 generations of sons, probably 28 or more, and the only hard-confirmed Sons of Solomon are his advisory council. He very well could have sons that are governors of on other worlds etc etc. Admittedly my brain kind of breaks trying to think about how widespread his family would be, we're at the level of like "Genghis Khan's descendants" kind of thing.
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Nov 1, 2020 19:43
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Yeah I really doubt ALL his sons were in the stadium.
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Nov 1, 2020 21:25
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Tulip posted:This is trivial but he's had at least 26 generations of sons, probably 28 or more, and the only hard-confirmed Sons of Solomon are his advisory council. He very well could have sons that are governors of on other worlds etc etc. Admittedly my brain kind of breaks trying to think about how widespread his family would be, we're at the level of like "Genghis Khan's descendants" kind of thing. Solomon David has to space out the generations of his sons to make sure they don't form a continuous field of bureaucrats squabbling. Dude is not just Temujin, he's a series of Temujins evenly spaced across the same empire, to the point that his first generation of sons' families would be an ancient established oligarchy that has no real connection to the new layer of bureaucrats. The omniverse is large enough that it's still probably not a major component of the populations of the Celestial Empire but they certainly are effectively their own minority ethnicity. Rayuban-Solomani.
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Nov 1, 2020 21:32
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Joe Slowboat posted:Solomon David has to space out the generations of his sons to make sure they don't form a continuous field of bureaucrats squabbling. A decade or more ago Sluggy Freelance had a moment where a guy broke a super-teleporter so that instead of teleporting you it instacloned you, set it to "transit to all locations" and jumped through it a few times, immediately becoming a sizeable minority unto himself.
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Nov 1, 2020 21:40
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Tulip posted:A decade or more ago Sluggy Freelance had a moment where a guy broke a super-teleporter so that instead of teleporting you it instacloned you, set it to "transit to all locations" and jumped through it a few times, immediately becoming a sizeable minority unto himself. Are you thinking of Schlock Mercenary or did both of those comics independently use the same plot point
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Nov 1, 2020 21:44
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Rotten Red Rod posted:Yeah I really doubt ALL his sons were in the stadium. All of the ones he at least vaguely liked enough to keep close to him, then.
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Nov 1, 2020 21:47
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GunnerJ posted:Wearily opening the gate to a new universe, dreading the slog of another conquest, only to be pleasantly surprised that it's just a big chain restaurant franchise and all you need to do is bully the general manager into accepting you as the new corporate overlord. ...and free breadsticks for life!
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Nov 1, 2020 22:35
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GunnerJ posted:Must suck to get stuck with the keys to a bunch of universes that just contain like a single rock or a nice house or something. There's probably a good side story in being an emissary for Mottom or Mammon and devoting absolutely everything into being allowed to open a gate and claim a world for your guild, achieving it, then realizing you've sunk everything into a barren rock.
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Nov 1, 2020 22:45
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Straight White Shark posted:Are you thinking of Schlock Mercenary or did both of those comics independently use the same plot point gently caress I have made this exact mistake twice this month. It was Schlock Mercenary.
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Nov 2, 2020 04:58
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TK-42-1 posted:God drat y’all are reading way too much into this. Not everything has to be a firm comment on the state of the world. Solomon has been able to defend his people for X centuries because he built a system that could withstand all but a literal god coming in and raining havok. Sure the people at the brunt end of the attack by jagganoth died but you have to remember that there are literally 111,111 worlds under his protection all of which have at least a million people. Is his method the best? No. But when he was warned of an impending attack he immediately thought of the innocents in the city and declared war on the aggressor. isn't this the evergreen rationale for all authoritarianism? "Sure, the tyrant's brutal, but everything he did was necessary to protect his people, and even if it's factually not protecting the people from the real terrors befalling them there surely must have been an even worse fate they'd have suffered without his harsh but necessary measures!" You can do this forever irrespective of circumstance, because it's dealing in vague counterfactuals that only exist to rationalize the status quo. However bad reality is something could hypothetically be worse even if you can't quite imagine how, and it's all thanks to whatever the tyrant felt like doing that we're not in that world. A Wizard of Goatse fucked around with this message at 16:12 on Nov 3, 2020 |
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Nov 3, 2020 16:07
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I think it was meant that Dave was the least worst, not that he was actually any good. The other demiurges seem either too deep in their own problems or lack the care to put any actual effort into ruling. Dispite being the least worst demiurge, it should be noted he is clearly depicted as tyrannical and evil, even if his backstory is tragic like the rest of them.
thechosenone fucked around with this message at 17:28 on Nov 3, 2020 |
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Nov 3, 2020 17:25
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thechosenone posted:I think it was meant that Dave was the least worst, not that he was actually any good. The other demiurges seem either too deep in their own problems or lack the care to put any actual effort into ruling. Dispite being the least worst demiurge, it should be noted he is clearly depicted as tyrannical and evil, even if his backstory is tragic like the rest of them. It's probably pretty great living under Gog-Agog's rule except for the small chance of spontaneously exploding into a new Gog at any given moment.
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Nov 3, 2020 18:48
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thechosenone posted:I think it was meant that Dave was the least worst, not that he was actually any good. The other demiurges seem either too deep in their own problems or lack the care to put any actual effort into ruling. Dispite being the least worst demiurge, it should be noted he is clearly depicted as tyrannical and evil, even if his backstory is tragic like the rest of them. So? Allison's world is in Mottom's domain, and is implied to be getting along fine because Mottom hasn't "put any effort into ruling" it. The universe doesn't need and isn't improved by some megalomaniac carving it into their own image. If Rayuba had nice aesthetics before it was destroyed as collateral damage between the godlings fighting over it cause Solomon wanted it, well, so did Mottom's palace, for the same reasons. A Wizard of Goatse fucked around with this message at 19:34 on Nov 3, 2020 |
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Nov 3, 2020 19:07
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