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Stop taking the bait from Pissflaps 2.
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Nov 1, 2020 20:05
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therattle posted:Unlike a society, a party chooses who to allow in or exclude. If there is a prevalence of something within a subgroup that is increasing, and contrary to that subgroup’s stated values, then it has a problem. I wasn't aware that it was increasing? Also people aren't screened before they enter, if the party has a lower prevalence of antisemitism than the general population that suggests that there is a combination of cultural intolerance for antisemitism within the party, and/or that there are effective procedures for removing people who display it. Both of which are good things and point to the prior assertion that it does not make a lot of sense to say that the party "has a problem with" antisemitism. You don't say that new zealand "has a problem" with covid, you don't say schools with better learning outcomes "have a problem" with education, that just isn't how words work? You start from the baseline expectation and look at whether they are improving on it or doing worse than it? As labour does draw from the general population if it has a lower rate of antisemitism it is creating an environment that actively discourages it, is it not? There may be ways it could do it better and certainly things like the obstructiveness of the party apparatus in dealing with complaints for political purposes is a very obvious point for improvement, but even with that, it does not seem like it makes any sense to assert that "labour has a problem with antisemitism" unless something has changed since last I was aware, which was that labour is demonstrably less antisemitic than you would expect an organization based in britain to be. The correct thing to say, in that instance, is that labour is effectively combating antisemitism but there are ways it could do so more effectively. The meaning of which, as a statement, I would suggest is entirely opposite the meaning of the one you keep asserting. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 20:12 on Nov 1, 2020 |
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Nov 1, 2020 20:06
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justcola posted:Something I've been thinking about a bit is how do you find all this out if you didn't have the internet or a TV, just word of mouth, wake up in a hospital bed from a coma and find everything is deserted etc. how are you meant to know whats going on?
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Nov 1, 2020 20:09
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Gonzo McFee posted:You should go back to CSPAM and give it another go. If Corbyn is a luchador then where's his mask, hmmm?
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Nov 1, 2020 20:13
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Vitamin P posted:Treating the AS stuff as though there isn't a wider political and media context for the story shits on the vulnerable groups being abused and mudered by the austerity policies Corbyns Labour was the only viable fightback against in a generation it's not complicated. Does it really matter what the wider context is? Antisemitism is antisemitism and should not be tolerated full stop, especially within a political party where one of their core tenets is anti racism. One the other hand, the right will always use every weapon at its disposal to protect its interests and complaining that the UK left was sunk under the spectre of antisemitism is both diminishing the importance of fighting against antisemitism but also saying the other side doesn't play fair. Unfortunately you cant just take your ball and go home cuz it's not your ball and you have no home (you've been evicted). You'll have to find better players
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Nov 1, 2020 20:16
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Zohar posted:Just came across this guy at the Telegraph lol 
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Nov 1, 2020 20:17
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Jedit posted:If Corbyn is a luchador then where's his mask, hmmm? https://twitter.com/SamiZayn/status/1322232843666395136?s=19 Jeremy Corbyn was secretly El Generico 
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Nov 1, 2020 20:17
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whoops wrong button
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Nov 1, 2020 20:19
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Order is backwards, it goes "there is no second wave" to "ok there is one and it's going to kill everyone but we shouldn't do anything anyway"
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Nov 1, 2020 20:19
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Z the IVth posted:The problem with journalists is that the good ones put themselves in the line of fire for their job and get shot for their troubles. this is overcomplicating the problem already solved by jose
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Nov 1, 2020 20:26
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Gonzo McFee posted:Stop taking the bait from Pissflaps 2. Forums user therattle is being way more sincere and posting better than Pissflaps was that's unfair. fridge corn posted:Does it really matter what the wider context is? Antisemitism is antisemitism and should not be tolerated full stop, especially within a political party where one of their core tenets is anti racism. In the context of an ongoing apartheid against the Palestinian people that bad actors are equating criticism of to antisemitism then yes it obviously does matter what the wider context is. I strongly disagree that the AS story was a significant factor in 2017 or 2019 btw, but it is relevant in that establishment media is using it to create a fake narrative and undermine future left actions.
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Nov 1, 2020 20:28
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Communist Thoughts posted:this is overcomplicating the problem already solved by jose You mean send the journos to go stay with Jose so they experience natural disasters? Would probably get pretty annoying for him TBH.
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Nov 1, 2020 20:36
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I think we established that to weaponise Jose you need to be near him but not too close, because he himself is immune.
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Nov 1, 2020 20:38
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I don't think the wider British voting base cares one bit about antisemitism. Though the overwhelmingly negative media portrayal in general certainly hurt Corbs. Which could be wholly unrelated to antisemitism charges. Also his Brexit stance was probably the worst one any party could possible take. He sent Labour remainers to the Lib dems Labor leavers to the Tories While the Tory voters stayed or maybe voted Lib dem at the worst. He catered to a Brexit voter that did not exist.
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Nov 1, 2020 20:42
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OwlFancier posted:I wasn't aware that it was increasing? Also people aren't screened before they enter, if the party has a lower prevalence of antisemitism than the general population that suggests that there is a combination of cultural intolerance for antisemitism within the party, and/or that there are effective procedures for removing people who display it. Both of which are good things and point to the prior assertion that it does not make a lot of sense to say that the party "has a problem with" antisemitism. Because the first is true, especially when there are factions deliberately gumming up the works to remove them, but yes, all accounts seem to show the percentage of Labour supporters believing in antisemitic tropes falling from partway between Conservative and Lib Dem levels in 2015 to below Lib Dem in 2017. Something went right about then. So if anything, it's the Tories who have managed to set up their party as a reverse osmosis machine for concentrating people who believe you can't trust Jews, and that seems reflected in the number of party members/staffers spreading antisemitic conspiracy theories like 'Cultural Marxism' around on twitter. So I suppose the argument is whether they should get a pass because they aren't an anti-racist party, and I don't see why that should be the case, we didn't give the BNP a free pass on having a whites-only rule just because they admitted to being a strictly racist party. Katt posted:Also his Brexit stance was probably the worst one any party could possible take.
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Nov 1, 2020 20:48
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Vitamin P posted:In the context of an ongoing apartheid against the Palestinian people that bad actors are equating criticism of to antisemitism then yes it obviously does matter what the wider context is. I'm not sure why you bring this up. While I wholeheartedly agree with the sentiment, it is not how you framed the wider context in the post I was replying to. There is obviously a difference between genuine antisemitism and contrived antisemitism and I was addressing the former and its presence in the Labour Party Vitamin P posted:I strongly disagree that the AS story was a significant factor in 2017 or 2019 btw, but it is relevant in that establishment media is using it to create a fake narrative and undermine future left actions. I mean whether you believe the antisemitism issue had an effect on the outcome of either election largely depends on whether or not you believed Corbyn had a chance in the first place I guess. So you believe it wasnt a factor but will be in the future?
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Nov 1, 2020 20:49
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I would strongly suggest that if the desired meaning is the former then a different formulation of words should be used to convey it because I think "the party has a problem with antisemitism" definitely conveys the latter, categorically incorrect meaning.
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Nov 1, 2020 20:51
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OwlFancier posted:Order is backwards, it goes "there is no second wave" to "ok there is one and it's going to kill everyone but we shouldn't do anything anyway" oops 
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Nov 1, 2020 20:56
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the party has a problem with a prominent former leader who cannot stop himself from having the last word, no matter how ill-advised, combined with an anti-discrimination policy that allows people who've been dunked on to fight back via ponderous processes instead of slinking away in humiliation. Once these processes are invoked, any outcome is bad, because even with a very good outcome that appears to close the previous issue, in comes said former leader to restart the cycle. the combination renders it a perpetual headline generator. Sometimes the relevant individual is insensitive enough to say something that allows the party to force that person out (e.g., Livingstone). But at other times it's not going to be. If anything, this won't be limited to A/S in the future this didn't previously exist back in the days of Militant because there was no disciplinary process in the old Labour Party. The NEC fused both political and disciplinary decisionmaking. Today, it's not going to go away and if anything is adopting a much more quasijudicial process rather than the vague 'disrepute' formalization. something must give, but in the long view I can't guess what
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Nov 1, 2020 21:07
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ronya posted:the party has a problem with a prominent former leader who cannot stop himself from having the last word, no matter how ill-advised Tony Blair?
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Nov 1, 2020 21:10
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Also Pissflaps Mk2 up there said that there were things in the leaked report which were "taken out of context". Tells you all you need to know. What context could there be that makes any of that poo poo alright? What more context do you need than an 800 page report which is solely there to provide context? If anybody is actually going to try to answer those two questions, I'm not interested, because you're either monumentally dumb or acting in bad faith and I have time for neither.
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Nov 1, 2020 21:15
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kecske posted:Tony Blair? this actually came up when Blair and Mandelson (both party members) advocated voting for the most anti-Brexit candidate in 2017 regardless of party however, the party did not take the bait and expel them. So, no recursion the HR process as written no longer allows for such discretion however
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Nov 1, 2020 21:19
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TheRat posted:Your strawmanning is getting really old, really fast. Please explain. quote:
Vitamin P posted:Treating the AS stuff as though there isn't a wider political and media context for the story shits on the vulnerable groups being abused and mudered by the austerity policies Corbyns Labour was the only viable fightback against in a generation it's not complicated. I'm really sorry, but I don't agree. There were victims of Labour AS (being Jews who were distressed, traumatised, harassed, etc), and who were also being used as a political footballs by the right, but the fact that others also suffered (differently, and often more) as a result doesn't mean that we can't have sympathy for both. Anyway, I have said my piece on this. Time for TV. WhatEvil posted:Also Pissflaps Mk2 up there said that there were things in the leaked report which were "taken out of context". There is some really horrible stuff in that report, which, if true (and at least some of it probably is) is abhorrent and inexcusable. But it isn't altogether clear how much is true and what the wider context was for all of it, from which a number of conclusions have been drawn. For instance, there was stuff about Coryn's people celebrating after 2017 while the right-wingers were grey-faced, because this isn't what they had worked for. They were running an election campaign. Corbyn's people were celebrating a better-than-expected close second place. In a two-horse race, there is a word for second place. If you'd lost an election that you'd worked really hard to win, would you necessarily be celebrating? therattle fucked around with this message at 21:43 on Nov 1, 2020 |
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Nov 1, 2020 21:38
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therattle posted:Anyway, I have said my piece on this. Time for TV. don't come back
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Nov 1, 2020 21:44
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Julio Cruz posted:have you tried going and arguing with them instead of pretending that this thread believes that? it might be a better use of your time therattle posted:
Julio Cruz posted:don't come back Sorry, I will for one last thing. Per the above two posts I misremembered what you wrote. You were referring to the general thread view and not individuals. So my response to you was wrong. It bothered me when I realised.
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Nov 1, 2020 22:03
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therattle posted:Sorry, I will for one last thing. Per the above two posts I misremembered what you wrote. You were referring to the general thread view and not individuals. So my response to you was wrong. It bothered me when I realised. Thanks for expounding on the AS points here in DnD. Your points of view are different from my own, and I don't agree with them as you know, but I do respect the posting energy. Keep on posting!
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Nov 1, 2020 22:07
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MeinPanzer posted:Rental dispute update: Take her to loving court anyway. At least tell her you are.
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Nov 1, 2020 22:09
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therattle posted:Sorry, I will for one last thing. Per the above two posts I misremembered what you wrote. You were referring to the general thread view and not individuals. So my response to you was wrong. It bothered me when I realised. I think much of the hostility towards you in this thread is due to you having a really annoying avatar and when people read your posts, they subconsciously imagine that it's the avatar saying them and get cross. Have you considered replacing it with an anime girl?
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Nov 1, 2020 22:12
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therattle posted:For instance, there was stuff about Coryn's people celebrating after 2017 while the right-wingers were grey-faced, because this isn't what they had worked for. They were running an election campaign. Corbyn's people were celebrating a better-than-expected close second place. In a two-horse race, there is a word for second place. If you'd lost an election that you'd worked really hard to win, would you necessarily be celebrating? Yes, because they wanted, expected and actively worked for the result to be worse and were grey-faced because it was so much closer than they expected. See for example Steven Kinnocks crestfallen face and the aborted leadership campaign planned for the days after the election. With your first post I thought you might be genuine but this shows you are clearly being disingenuous, or trolling. Long form pissflaps it is then.
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Nov 1, 2020 22:24
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Katt posted:Also his Brexit stance was probably the worst one any party could possible take. Pure anecdote, but in my archetypal left behind/shafted by 40 years of neoliberalism East Midlands city I haven't encountered a single person who says they would have voted Labour in 2019 but didn't because of Corbyn's supposed antisemitism/terrorist sympathies/Britain-hating/unwillingness to nuke Russia/whatever. There are plenty of folks who were never going to vote Labour because they considered the entire platform lunacy/immoral/unachievable/THE BINS and there are plenty of those that [say they] liked much of what Labour was offering but let their need to Get Brexit Done/Uphold the Will Of The People take precedence. And some (tending to be of the younger, more educated, higher-social-capital sort) who liked the platform but wouldn't vote Labour because Corbyn wouldn't Stop Brexit. Kinda sums up the impossible position Labour was in with regard to Brexit, but my unscientific/non-forensic impression is that the 2017 position would have gone down much better. And that the poo poo thrown at Corbyn personally made no impact here in the regions. therattle posted:For instance, there was stuff about Coryn's people celebrating after 2017 while the right-wingers were grey-faced, because this isn't what they had worked for. They were running an election campaign. Corbyn's people were celebrating a better-than-expected close second place. In a two-horse race, there is a word for second place. If you'd lost an election that you'd worked really hard to win, would you necessarily be celebrating? I remember watching the Labour right figureheads on the 2017 GE night. Their reactions and demeanour were absolutely not those of people who had given their all to achieving a victory against the odds and come up a hair's breadth short. They were stunned/appalled that the policies and people they had spent the past two years insisting where 'unelectable' had come within a few thousand votes of being elected, and had gained an overall swing not seen since the 1940s.
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Nov 1, 2020 22:37
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Pistol_Pete posted:I think much of the hostility towards you in this thread is due to you having a really annoying avatar and when people read your posts, they subconsciously imagine that it's the avatar saying them and get cross. Have you considered replacing it with an anime girl? Lol
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Nov 1, 2020 22:43
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ronya posted:it is possible to put down these issues - recall e.g. that both Corbyn and McDonnell were soon hit by criticisms over their various remarks on the Irish peace process early in their respective positions. Compare McDonnell defusing what one might think to be an utterly disastrous remark: I love you Ronya and this is a fantastic post I had felt as well that Corbyn is a bit, well, stubborn, or maybe obsinate, whatever the best term is - as a character trait. Man's not perfect. I still love him and I think it's pretty clear that the press would have endlessly hounded him anyway, but one does not negate the other See, life is complex like this, all kinds of nuance. I can understand where therattle is coming from as well. Disagree with them, but I get it
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Nov 1, 2020 23:17
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https://twitter.com/christopherhope/status/1323015019534163969 https://twitter.com/christopherhope/status/1323015021757140992 gouge out my brain
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Nov 1, 2020 23:28
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It's that time of the electoral cycle when the Farage Fund must be running dry.
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Nov 1, 2020 23:32
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I'd forgotten he even exists tbh. That's how poo poo of a year it's been 
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Nov 1, 2020 23:33
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The endless grift.
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Nov 1, 2020 23:36
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Feel like there's no scenario where "anti-lockdown party" is a strong suit by next May, but maybe I lack Farage's frog instincts.
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Nov 1, 2020 23:37
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His relentless dedication to killing Brits has to be admired
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Nov 1, 2020 23:38
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Convex posted:I'd forgotten he even exists tbh. That's how poo poo of a year it's been Hope he goes campaigning by small plane again
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Nov 1, 2020 23:38
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You would think Farage would be happy most of Kent and other parts of the UK are being named after him post Brexit. Farage Garages
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Nov 1, 2020 23:39
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