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I think Mirror Darkly is also when the show was cancelled, thanks to it being one of the lowest rating episodes of the entire series so it not being remembered is actually understandable edit: it was the third least watched episode behind Bound (Orion slave girl episode) and Babel One (part one of the Romulan three parter)
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Nov 2, 2020 03:53
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Bilirubin posted:time to slingshot around the sun I guess FlamingLiberal posted:In A Mirror, Darkly is a great two parter and actually has an impact on future Trek series This was one of Manny Coto's great additions to Enterprise as a showrunner. He wanted to do a TOS episode and a Mirror Universe episode, so instead of choosing, he combined both ideas. So it turns out the USS Defiant from The Tholian Web was phasing in and out of the Mirror Universe, and when it fully passed through the rift it also fell backward in time to the Mirror Universe's NX-01 era. The Mirror Tholians grab it, because it's in their space, and the ISS Enterprise NX-01 discovers it, steals it from the Tholians and Mirror Archer and crew use its advanced technology to go on a rampage. Hoshi then betrays and kills Archer, takes over the Defiant, flies it to Earth and goes "I'm Empress now, bitches. Suck it." This helps explain why the Mirror Universe is so advanced in Discovery because they reverse engineered the Defiant's technology and why Georgiou is Empress in Discovery because she's a distant relation to Hoshi. The Empire also kitted the poo poo out of the Defiant, but sadly we never see it in Discovery itself.
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Nov 2, 2020 03:55
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I don't think Georgiou is meant to be a relation of Hoshi - given that the former is Malaysian Chinese and the latter is Japanese. Given the Empire's vaguely Roman style, I think we're meant to assume Georgiou was adopted into the Imperial family just as she adopted Mirror Burnham as her heir. It does feel like something of a shot at the main show's use of the characters that in the mirror universe, Hoshi and Mayweather are plotting to murder the rest of the crew and take over for themselves...
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Nov 2, 2020 04:15
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Seemlar posted:I think Mirror Darkly is also when the show was cancelled, thanks to it being one of the lowest rating episodes of the entire series so it not being remembered is actually understandable They were shooting In a Mirror, Darkly when the cancellation was publicly announced, but Paramount had told the production staff, when it gave the fourth-season renewal (the show was very nearly canceled during the third), that unless the series rebounded to, like, TNG-esque ratings, the fourth season was absolutely going to be the last. UPN was already in its death throes and the CBS / Viacom split was well in the works.
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Nov 2, 2020 04:32
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Timby posted:but Paramount had told the production staff, when it gave the fourth-season renewal (the show was very nearly canceled during the third), that unless the series rebounded to, like, TNG-esque ratings, the fourth season was absolutely going to be the last. UPN was already in its death throes and the CBS / Viacom split was well in the works. The office mood must have been outstanding when the ratings for s4e1 came in and showed what the Space Nazi cliffhanger did for the cause. It astounds me to this day that the Xindi arc ending in farce was one of the very first things they decided when planning season 3 and they still went with it even as they teetered on the brink of cancellation 
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Nov 2, 2020 04:46
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Timby posted:They were shooting In a Mirror, Darkly when the cancellation was publicly announced, but Paramount had told the production staff, when it gave the fourth-season renewal (the show was very nearly canceled during the third), that unless the series rebounded to, like, TNG-esque ratings, the fourth season was absolutely going to be the last. UPN was already in its death throes and the CBS / Viacom split was well in the works. And here's the good old graph to show how impossible that would be.  "Ratings" aren't really a thing with streaming shows, but I do wonder how the current shows' viewership numbers stack up. Unfortunately, those numbers aren't available, from pretty much any streaming service. e:  somebody re-made the graph with a bunch of math nerd poo poo, but still managed to spell "Nielsen" wrong.
Powered Descent fucked around with this message at 05:00 on Nov 2, 2020 |
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Nov 2, 2020 04:57
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Seemlar posted:The office mood must have been outstanding when the ratings for s4e1 came in and showed what the Space Nazi cliffhanger did for the cause. Berman and Braga had decided that they were going to peace out at the end of the third season when Paramount gave the S4 renewal, and I simply have to believe that Alien Space Nazis was just a giant "gently caress you" to Manny Coto as their way of saying, "Here, figure this out." And so then Coto had to blow two hours handwaving all of the bullshit away while dealing with a budget that had been cut by like 30 percent for the fourth season. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a huge fan of Coto (his post-Enterprise writing credits should disabuse anyone of the notion that he's particularly talented) and I think he was steering the show in the wrong direction, but he was put in a completely untenable position by Berman and Braga, and I will give him points for knowing in the back of his head that Berman and Braga were going to come back and insist on writing the series finale, hence why he wrote Terra Prime as "his" finale. Powered Descent posted:e: Holy poo poo, some of these dates are wildly off.
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Nov 2, 2020 05:01
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Timby posted:Berman and Braga had decided that they were going to peace out at the end of the third season when Paramount gave the S4 renewal, and I simply have to believe that Alien Space Nazis was just a giant "gently caress you" to Manny Coto as their way of saying, "Here, figure this out." And so then Coto had to blow two hours handwaving all of the bullshit away while dealing with a budget that had been cut by like 30 percent for the fourth season. Also, correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Coto turn out to be a pretty big chud post-Enterprise? I know he rebounded from Enterprise getting cancelled to go work on 24 because Joel Surnow was impressed with what he did on Enterprise, and that was basically a spawning pool for Hollywood Republicans... and arch-socialist Kiefer Sutherland. He then turned around and helped Braga get a producing gig on 24 after Threshold (the TV show with Peter Dinklage that was actually mildly good, not the Voyager episode with the sex lizards) got cancelled too. Coto has, probably smartly, stayed pretty silent on Star Trek since leaving the franchise and just as well. Any dipshit dumb enough to tweet out something like this https://twitter.com/mannyhectorcoto/status/1321885349082091520 is probably best left in the dustbin of TV history...
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Nov 2, 2020 05:10
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nine-gear crow posted:The Empire also kitted the poo poo out of the Defiant, but sadly we never see it in Discovery itself. This image isn't loading for me and I'm curious. Do you have it on another host?
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Nov 2, 2020 05:12
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Lemniscate Blue posted:This image isn't loading for me and I'm curious. Do you have it on another host? This is what I get for linking to Memory Alpha https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/USS_Defiant_(NCC-1764) It's on this page, once the article starts talking about its role in Discovery, on the lower left.
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Nov 2, 2020 05:13
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Looking at that graph, is it fair to say TNG, DS9 and Voyager were cancelled? I was under the impression they got their 7 seasons and ended as opposed to Enterprise, which was cancelled by the network. The one fascinating thing which came out of the Enterprise cancellation was a fan attempt to raise enough money to fund a season 5 of Enterprise - crowdfunding before Kickstarter and the like became a thing. Of course it bombed horribly, with the bulk of the donations being a 3 million dollar donation from NASA which eclipsed everything else they raised.
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Nov 2, 2020 05:22
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Zaroff posted:Looking at that graph, is it fair to say TNG, DS9 and Voyager were cancelled? I was under the impression they got their 7 seasons and ended as opposed to Enterprise, which was cancelled by the network. TNG, DS9 and Voyager all roughly ended on their own terms. After TNG set the trend of 7 seasons, DS9 and Voyager just kind of auto-pilot followed it to their own ends as well. DS9 was in syndication, so it only had to worry about Paramount itself dropping the axe on it. Voyager was apparently in constant peril of being cancelled because it was airing first run broadcast on UPN, which was headed by Les "I hate science fiction as much as I love sexually assaulting women" Moonves at the time before he moved over to CBS. And apparently there's some real horror stories about Moonves calling up Berman, Taylor, and Piller and obliquely threatening to cancel the show purely out of spite and because he could--which then filtered down to the actors and caused even more tension on set than normal because they were all in constant fear for their jobs.
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Nov 2, 2020 05:29
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Zaroff posted:Looking at that graph, is it fair to say TNG, DS9 and Voyager were cancelled? I was under the impression they got their 7 seasons and ended as opposed to Enterprise, which was cancelled by the network. TNG set the model (Paramount decided to go to movies because it was cheaper than re-signing everyone for a theoretical eighth season, especially Spiner, and the writing and production staff was completely burnt-out), and DS9 and Voyager followed it. DS9 was in danger of cancellation after its third season (hence the introduction of Worf) but when it got back up to speed they had decided to go the full seven. The TrekUnited / "Save Enterprise" thing was one of the funniest things I've ever seen. I've been a mod / admin at Trek BBS since 2002 (What have I done with my life), and there was so much loving astroturfing going on with that. I remember the campaign claiming they had a "big-name" Hollywood producer attached to run the fifth season and it turned out to be some whacko named Al Vinci who claimed to be a Canadian child actor and TV producer despite no credits being found to his name. I think TrekUnited wound up grifting something north of $20 million before the campaign folded and admitted it had never been realistic. nine-gear crow posted:TNG, DS9 and Voyager all roughly ended on their own terms. After TNG set the trend of 7 seasons, DS9 and Voyager just kind of auto-pilot followed it to their own ends as well. DS9 was in syndication, so it only had to worry about Paramount itself dropping the axe on it. Voyager was apparently in constant peril of being cancelled because it was airing first run broadcast on UPN, which was headed by Les "I hate science fiction as much as I love sexually assaulting women" Moonves at the time before he moved over to CBS. And apparently there's some real horror stories about Moonves calling up Berman, Taylor, and Piller and obliquely threatening to cancel the show purely out of spite and because he could--which then filtered down to the actors and caused even more tension on set than normal because they were all in constant fear for their jobs. Voyager had a lot of studio fuckery going on but it was absolutely the flagship of UPN and it was never in any real danger of cancellation. The biggest directives from Paramount were the addition of more sex appeal and getting lots of stunt guest stars, which is how we got The Rock delivering a Rock Bottom and the People's Eyebrow to Seven of Nine, since WWF SmackDown was airing on UPN. Timby fucked around with this message at 05:39 on Nov 2, 2020 |
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Nov 2, 2020 05:36
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Timby posted:(his post-Enterprise writing credits should disabuse anyone of the notion that he's particularly talented) I was curious so I looked it up  That's very blunt...
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Nov 2, 2020 05:36
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Boxturret posted:I was curious so I looked it up Someone came up with the idea of doing a right-wing version of The Daily Show and it turned out exactly as you would expect Just 30 minutes of punching down, repeatedly.
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Nov 2, 2020 05:40
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Boxturret posted:I was curious so I looked it up Also stole the name concept from "This Hour Has 22 Minutes" in Canada
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Nov 2, 2020 05:55
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Timby posted:Voyager had a lot of studio fuckery going on but it was absolutely the flagship of UPN and it was never in any real danger of cancellation. The biggest directives from Paramount were the addition of more sex appeal and getting lots of stunt guest stars, which is how we got The Rock delivering a Rock Bottom and the People's Eyebrow to Seven of Nine, since WWF SmackDown was airing on UPN. That was a work of art and you know it  Also, if you really want to claim you've wasted your life, become an SA mod 
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Nov 2, 2020 06:38
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Tsunkatse is a lot better than it has any right to be.
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Nov 2, 2020 06:57
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HD DAD posted:Tsunkatse is a lot better than it has any right to be. That's because it's got JG Hertzler and Jeffrey Combs as guest stars, it focuses on Seven and Tuvok, and as it turned out to everyone's shock, Dwayne Johnson is an incredibly charismatic actor.
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Nov 2, 2020 07:04
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While Tsunkatse itself was unexceptional the UPN promo for it was the kind of stuff to make you manifest concussion symptoms
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Nov 2, 2020 07:07
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The only good bits of nuWho was the Eccleston run and select bits of the Tennant run. The rest is prestige TV garbage interchangeable with Discovery.
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Nov 2, 2020 10:35
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thotsky posted:The only good bits of nuWho was the Eccleston run and select bits of the Tennant run. The rest is prestige TV garbage interchangeable with Discovery. Dinosaurs on a Spaceship: prestige television apparently
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Nov 2, 2020 11:53
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Doctor Who has been many things, but it's never been prestige anything.
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Nov 2, 2020 13:22
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Computer, a gallon of jelly babies please. This may get interesting. i honestly wish there's an episode where Barclay created a holodeck program where he's the Doctor.
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Nov 2, 2020 13:25
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Lemniscate Blue posted:This image isn't loading for me and I'm curious. Do you have it on another host?  As a bonus, have an interpretation from STO.   (And if you want one of your own, you can get one simply by winning an [Infinity Prize Pack]™ by opening the [Infinity Lockbox]™ with [Master Keys]™ that can be purchased for only 125 Zen™ per key, which can itself be purchased for a mere 1000 Zen™ for USD$10.00! With a zero point four percent chance of successfully getting a prize pack per opened lockbox, it's practically a steal!) (Now if you want one of the rarer, more in-demand ships like a classic TOS constitution, you'll have to get it to drop from one of thee rarer Promo packs, which should only require ten or twenty times the expenditure...) MikeJF fucked around with this message at 14:55 on Nov 2, 2020 |
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Nov 2, 2020 14:53
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Second half of DS9 season 2 is so good. Been having a great run with episodes like "The Maquis" 2-parter and "The Wire". Even the episode that was simply "Casablanca but with Quark" was somehow good. Sisko's "it's easy to be a saint in paradise" speech is so iconic and just perfectly lays out exactly what the show is trying to say about Roddenberry's vision and how it needs to be clarified and examined rather than just accepted.
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Nov 2, 2020 19:07
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thotsky posted:The only good bits of nuWho was the Eccleston run and select bits of the Tennant run. The rest is prestige TV garbage interchangeable with Discovery.  The people who complain about NuWho are always the same ones who toss the “PRESTIGE TV” phrase around like it’s supposed to be some damning criticism of anything they don’t personally like. Even the idea of Doctor Who, a show about an immortal shape-shifting alien who regularly fights salt shakers, robots, and farting aliens, somehow trying to be a show in the vein of Mad Men or The Sopranos is laughable. C’mon son, try harder.
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Nov 2, 2020 19:19
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Prestige Television
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Nov 2, 2020 20:21
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I mean, don't like Dr. Who much post-Tenant either but it ain't because it was taking itself too seriously LOL
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Nov 2, 2020 20:45
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I still maintain the best season was Eleven's first, it just seems a bit retroactively tainted by most of the rest of Eleven's stuff kinda vanishing up its own arse and things not paying off well later. That first season was meticulously crafted and well-done, though. The idea of it being in any way prestige-like is utterly laughable, though.
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Nov 2, 2020 20:57
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I maintain Capaldi’s last season struck the right balance of weirdo science fiction and silly whimsy that good Doctor Who is famous for. The times Who took itself too seriously were easily its worst moments.
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Nov 2, 2020 21:05
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I do remember reading about all the various behind-the-scenes stuff at Who that the show really could've used the TNG-style split between a Creative executive producer and a Business executive producer, rather than the single Showrunner model. (Although that's before the disaster that was Berman sticking his opinions in the creative side). Russell T Davies was one of the few people could navigate his way around both sides and that was key to kicking it off, but Moffat was apparently a disaster at the business and production side, and honestly it seemed unfair to expect him not to be. You're expecting the kind of person whose speciality is to guide a satisfying storyline and writing to also be a business savvy television production specialist? The trend towards the single showrunner being basically standard lately is just weird to me.
MikeJF fucked around with this message at 21:16 on Nov 2, 2020 |
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Nov 2, 2020 21:12
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Discovery isn’t prestige either. It’s might want to be but it ain’t
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Nov 2, 2020 21:47
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CharlestheHammer posted:Discovery isn’t prestige either. Discovery, like many other shows commonly strapped with that “prestige” label by folks online, has never tried to be. The ship runs on mushrooms and the original captain was evil.
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Nov 2, 2020 22:10
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That sounds like prestige TV to me. Hell making the original captain Evil might be the most prestige TV move. That or what if the bad guy.......was the good guy???
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Nov 2, 2020 22:14
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If that sounds like prestige TV to you I'd love to hear your definition of prestige TV.
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Nov 2, 2020 22:26
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Prestige TVisvjust TV were you make a show as gritty and real as possible. Usually by trying to make your characters as grey as possible. Either all the characters are horribly flawed or just the protagonist. You know the literally what prestige TV is. What do you think it is
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Nov 2, 2020 22:30
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Discovery flirted with attempting to be prestige television maybe at the very beginning, but now it is very much a show about a ship that is powered by mushrooms and friendship.
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Nov 2, 2020 22:32
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Prestige TV is basically any current show, it makes sense in some way though. It's shorthand for the era where they pump a huge amount of money into these shows, comparable to movies. If it's not a reality show it's Prestige.
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Nov 2, 2020 22:34
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Sir Lemming posted:Prestige TV is basically any current show, it makes sense in some way though. It's shorthand for the era where they pump a huge amount of money into these shows, comparable to movies. If it's not a reality show it's Prestige. Eh prestige does have its own tropes and such. I like some prestige shows but they do get a bit formulaic at times
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Nov 2, 2020 22:37
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