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i dont at all see how the vegan movement is meaningfully at cross purposes with a wholesale transition to invertebrate/pescatarian consumption unless you want to pretend that all vegans are absolutely hard lined (despite the fact that we keep saying we aren't)
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Nov 4, 2020 00:09
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My life does make it fully impossible to go plant-based, yes. I disclosed that's a major problem I have with the moral argument. If you want to support research into synthesizing the bits I need so we can go fully vegan as a society you have my absolute support however. And no, I'm not talking in support of factory farming or against massively reducing meat consumption. Food that could be eaten by humans fed to animals so we can have McBeef? gently caress that. We're heading for the worst famine of all time and you're wasting nutrient production capability - worse, burning woodland and fossil fuels alike - in order for us to have lovely beef nobody really enjoys? That should absolutely be a crime.
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Nov 4, 2020 00:11
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personally, i believe it is immoral to benefit from violent exploitation (such as child labor or slavery, imperialist wars of aggfression etc.) yet being an american citizen it is effectively impossible for me to not do that. to my mind that does not invalidate the moral argument. in your case, it should be obviously insane to all but the most deluded antidominionists that it is not a moral imperative that e.g. someone with ehlers danloss syndrome simply die because they lack the ability to get adequate nutrition from a purely plant based diet. my morality is not your morality because we have different subjectivity, and thats ok.
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Nov 4, 2020 00:15
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endlessmonotony posted:I'm talking strictly about bugs and fish (and even then, just the filter feeders who convert algae to human-accessible energy), apart from the ruminant component required for all our stupid non-genetically-engineered food plants to thrive in soil. Also the whole problem where we grow grass to get the perennial roots and then don't convert that to human-edible food. i find your posts really hard to follow. i'm not even sure what you're trying to say. if you have filter feeds in an estuary or some poo poo why can't their natural predators just eat them? or the bugs that pollenate your crops can just be eaten by birds or whatever. isn't that part of a balanced ecosystem?
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Nov 4, 2020 00:16
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Crumbskull posted:ok, yeah i actually basically agree then although im not following the stuff about grass, ruminants for food productions are not meaningfully maintaining prairie systems currently? or do you just mean that there is otherwise unarable land that could have ruminants on it? The soil for growing things like root vegetables is pretty goddamn picky and the cultivars we have evolved alongside pasture animals. The grass meanwhile is to prevent topsoil erosion. Fallowing as a whole is an important part of agriculture. Crumbskull posted:i dont at all see how the vegan movement is meaningfully at cross purposes with a wholesale transition to invertebrate/pescatarian consumption unless you want to pretend that all vegans are absolutely hard lined (despite the fact that we keep saying we aren't) Define a belief system where you can go absolutely hard lined without qualms. It's the only way to do discussions in public spaces, because nuance is dead. And because a lot of vegans are exactly that hard lined and this leads to a lot of natural allies toward sustainable agriculture demanding Impossible poo poo because they don't understand the food web very well, much less what kind of an absolute mess we've managed to twist it into in order to feed seven billion people.
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Nov 4, 2020 00:17
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FacelessVoid posted:i find your posts really hard to follow. i'm not even sure what you're trying to say. if you have filter feeds in an estuary or some poo poo why can't their natural predators just eat them? or the bugs that pollenate your crops can just be eaten by birds or whatever. isn't that part of a balanced ecosystem? No. That leads to algal blooms and oxygen depletion, killing the ecosystem.
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Nov 4, 2020 00:18
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Crumbskull posted:legumes grains and vegetables are famously considerably more expensive than things like meat, cheese, fish etc Do not condescend to me, American
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Nov 4, 2020 00:21
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endlessmonotony posted:And because a lot of vegans are exactly that hard lined and this leads to a lot of natural allies toward sustainable agriculture demanding Impossible poo poo because they don't understand the food web very well, much less what kind of an absolute mess we've managed to twist it into in order to feed seven billion people. FacelessVoid posted:i find your posts really hard to follow. i'm not even sure what you're trying to say. if you have filter feeds in an estuary or some poo poo why can't their natural predators just eat them? or the bugs that pollenate your crops can just be eaten by birds or whatever. isn't that part of a balanced ecosystem? Crumbskull posted:ok, yeah i actually basically agree then although im not following the stuff about grass, ruminants for food productions are not meaningfully maintaining prairie systems currently? or do you just mean that there is otherwise unarable land that could have ruminants on it? It turns out to be a really hard topic constantly full of nuance and difficult questions you wouldn't even know to ask. The example about EDS is especially relevant because you wouldn't believe how many vegans I've met who rather simply do not know and refuse to believe we're not yet at the point where a purely plant-based diet is possible for everyone. And really the questions are ways I've determined to quickly pick up on who's just calling themselves "vegan" when they probably should be saying they aim to have a sustainable diet, and how many genuinely believe everyone who needs non-vegan food should die instead because they're automatically murderers. I take part in local politics. There's a lot of every kind of nutjob around, and ecofascists and vegans who want me dead are also included. In amounts that would probably startle you if this wasn't 2020. Crane Fist posted:Do not condescend to me, American Heh, minced meat is cheaper than most legumes here. Capitalism!
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Nov 4, 2020 00:28
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endlessmonotony posted:No. I'm sorry what? This is what I meant by your post being hard to follow. I think you're trolling but I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here. Algal blooms are caused by run off of modern chemical agriculture which are not needed. Instead of chemical fertilizers we could just use compost. It's a bit more energy and labor intensive but those loses will be easily offset by cutting out animal products. Since we'd need to grow far less food. The vast majority of what we grow goes to feed livestock.
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Nov 4, 2020 00:33
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endlessmonotony posted:
Yeah same, and vegan substitutes for anything are completely unaffordable so going full time vegan would mean just completely abandoning the idea of dairy- soy milk for example is extortionately priced, oat and almond are worse, vegan cheese may as well not exist, it sucks
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Nov 4, 2020 00:37
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FacelessVoid posted:I'm sorry what? This is what I meant by your post being hard to follow. I think you're trolling but I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here. I'm not trolling and you're ridiculously wrong. No, they're not caused by our modern chemical agriculture, it turns out that we're neither great at filtering the water nor controlling the amount of water that enters. Wetland engineering will help with both, which requires the grasses again. As well a coherent plan where capitalism doesn't get to skip the wetland work required in favor of a bigger profit margin. Fertilizer helps plants grow. Turns out it also helps algae grow, based on the same principles. Anything you use to fertilize the fields will suffer from the same problem. And if you avoid fertilizing the fields, your per acre yield tanks, requiring more land, which is also a thing we don't have. We need to collect and remove the nutrients from the river estuaries somehow. Which means filter feeders because with all our technology we'd require a massive energy investment to do it without animal life, and energy to waste is also one of the things we don't have.
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Nov 4, 2020 00:39
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Crane Fist posted:Do not condescend to me, American i;m British, checkmate. also imo its disingenuous to want to have a conversation about drastically altering the food system while also pretending that externalities that artificially reduce the price of meat/cheese/egg etc. wouldnt be accounted for differnetly. if you live on a danish island or something then, again, yeah o.k. in your specific case it is entirely possible that staple plant foods are more expensive than other forms of nutrition, but the idea that in order to go vegan one MUST eat specialty processed replacement foods is pretty funny to me imo.
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Nov 4, 2020 00:44
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The Voice of Labor posted:veganism is incompatible with eating the rich the rich are the only ethical meat
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Nov 4, 2020 00:45
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Crumbskull posted:, but the idea that in order to go vegan one MUST eat specialty processed replacement foods is pretty funny to me imo. My take is that if you want to encourage people to eat vegan we need to come up with a better pushback against the very common perception that veganism means living in a yurt eating watery lentils than "yeah deal with it" Crumbskull posted:i;m British, Even worse!!
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Nov 4, 2020 00:48
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endlessmonotony posted:It turns out to be a really hard topic constantly full of nuance and difficult questions you wouldn't even know to ask. The example about EDS is especially relevant because you wouldn't believe how many vegans I've met who rather simply do not know and refuse to believe we're not yet at the point where a purely plant-based diet is possible for everyone. i studied food systems mate i actually know a lot of the good questions, and im actually totally sympathetic to pretty much everything you are saying i just also think its counterproductive to use interactions with, like, insane ELF people to reflexively slander the idea of transitioning to a primarily plant based global food system. that said i completely understand using filter questions to gauge how seriously someone has actually thought about any of this poo poo but id like to think this thread is actuyally a good place for you to attempt the more nuanced discussion without having to assume that all of us think you are an irredemable murderer or whatever. for the record i think 'ethical veganism' that fails to meaningfully wrestle with practical political economic questions of global food production, processing and distribution is basically dumb as hell but i also think that most people who have that stupid belief live in 'developed nations' where they are perfectly correct that on balance a vegan diet is the least harmful thing they could be eating so even though they are incredibly annoying i believe its a net good
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Nov 4, 2020 00:48
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endlessmonotony posted:I'm not trolling and you're ridiculously wrong. No, I'm not wrong at all. With composting you do not lose nutrients to run off like with chemical agriculture. You primarily lost nutrients via harvesting. But by composting inedible parts of the plants and human waste you get almost all the nutrients back into the soil. Neither do you lose productivity per acre. The reason we switched to chemical agriculture is because it's less labor and energy intensive. Good thing we have lots of unemployed people! quote:We need to collect and remove the nutrients from the river estuaries somehow. Which means filter feeders because with all our technology we'd require a massive energy investment to do it without animal life, and energy to waste is also one of the things we don't have. So just natural wetlands? What am I missing here?
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Nov 4, 2020 00:49
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Crumbskull posted:i studied food systems mate i actually know a lot of the good questions, and im actually totally sympathetic to pretty much everything you are saying i just also think its counterproductive to use interactions with, like, insane ELF people to reflexively slander the idea of transitioning to a primarily plant based global food system. that said i completely understand using filter questions to gauge how seriously someone has actually thought about any of this poo poo but id like to think this thread is actuyally a good place for you to attempt the more nuanced discussion without having to assume that all of us think you are an irredemable murderer or whatever. for the record i think 'ethical veganism' that fails to meaningfully wrestle with practical political economic questions of global food production, processing and distribution is basically dumb as hell but i also think that most people who have that stupid belief live in 'developed nations' where they are perfectly correct that on balance a vegan diet is the least harmful thing they could be eating so even though they are incredibly annoying i believe its a net good At this point I'm convinced we need a new system that explicitly shuts out the ecofash and aims for maximum harm reduction as opposed to any moral stance depending on your perception of the morality of killing animals. I was gonna say I'd miss cheese but gently caress, cheese's fats. I don't actually want dairy I want the fatty goodness and texture. But yeah people may not give a poo poo about killing animals - sometimes I wonder if the majority gives a poo poo about killing humans - but everyone oughta be able to support the idea of "let's eat in a way that ensures we'll also have food tomorrow". FacelessVoid posted:No, I'm not wrong at all. lol
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Nov 4, 2020 00:54
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Either FacelessVoid is giving my argument all the evidence it needs, or it's a dead-on metatroll gimmick. Bravo, either way.
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Nov 4, 2020 00:56
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I'm trying to engage you in good faith. But it's clear now that was a mistake.
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Nov 4, 2020 01:00
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FacelessVoid posted:I'm trying to engage you in good faith. But it's clear now that was a mistake. lol You believe in magic and have no idea how agriculture works. Or for that matter, how you would remove nutrients from an estuary so they don't overwhelm the available oxygen. Here's a hint: You're sending the nutrients, contained in fishies, to a farm upstate. Otherwise you'd have to stop the nutrients from entering the fishies. This kills the fishies too.
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Nov 4, 2020 01:05
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endlessmonotony posted:At this point I'm convinced we need a new system that explicitly shuts out the ecofash and aims for maximum harm reduction as opposed to any moral stance depending on your perception of the morality of killing animals. I was gonna say I'd miss cheese but gently caress, cheese's fats. I don't actually want dairy I want the fatty goodness and texture. I actually think that vegan cheese can be good as gently caress if it is made like normal cheese and not processed into pre wrapped slices or whatever, plenty of fat and gooey texture but thats a relatively new development. also hard agree with the correct frame being harm reduction over moralism, and i agree with crane that 'yes lets all be back to the landers in cottages actually' is really stupid and not productive, but since at least the three of us know that we can move past it and continue to have a conversation about what the least harmful sustainable global ag system might look like i wrote my bachelor's capstone paper on the fascist/nazi roots in the organic farming movement and was almost excommunicated from my sustainable ag program lmao
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Nov 4, 2020 01:09
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I was never a cheese person before I went vegan but I can’t stand the vegan cheese it’s all just gross as hell to me my spouse likes it though
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Nov 4, 2020 01:12
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Crumbskull posted:i wrote my bachelor's capstone paper on the fascist/nazi roots in the organic farming movement and was almost excommunicated from my sustainable ag program lmao I'd be interested in looking into this - is there a book that provides a solid overview?
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Nov 4, 2020 01:12
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Crumbskull posted:i;m British, checkmate. also imo its disingenuous to want to have a conversation about drastically altering the food system while also pretending that externalities that artificially reduce the price of meat/cheese/egg etc. wouldnt be accounted for differnetly. if you live on a danish island or something then, again, yeah o.k. in your specific case it is entirely possible that staple plant foods are more expensive than other forms of nutrition, but the idea that in order to go vegan one MUST eat specialty processed replacement foods is pretty funny to me imo. But if you need a systemic change to change the situation, doesn't that mean going vegan in a capitalist system is meaningless? The answer is obviously not, when you buy pre-prepared vegan products more funding goes toward that R&D which results in much more accessible vegan options that will through economies of scale and lower resource costs make those options more attractive. Thank gently caress the "will eat meat just out of spite" people are rare and most people just get what's tasty, cheap or healthy, preferably all three. Crumbskull posted:I actually think that vegan cheese can be good as gently caress if it is made like normal cheese and not processed into pre wrapped slices or whatever, plenty of fat and gooey texture but thats a relatively new development. also hard agree with the correct frame being harm reduction over moralism, and i agree with crane that 'yes lets all be back to the landers in cottages actually' is really stupid and not productive, but since at least the three of us know that we can move past it and continue to have a conversation about what the least harmful sustainable global ag system might look like Attaboy. I still want to find a new name for diets built around nature-friendliness and sustainability though.
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Nov 4, 2020 01:15
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PERPETUAL IDIOT posted:I'd be interested in looking into this - is there a book that provides a solid overview? not that i could find really, there are a handful of papers from like seventy years ago that i found that are just neutrally recounting early organic history that off hand mention nazi guys attending the conferences lol, i mostly had to do primary research tbh
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Nov 4, 2020 01:22
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Crane Fist posted:Even worse!! [twisted][twisted][twisted]
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Nov 4, 2020 01:23
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endlessmonotony posted:lol If I understand your post, you're implying the only way an ecosystem can be balanced is if humans do some kind of predation to take nutrients out of it. Why can this not be done through natural predators? Or just balancing the nutrients flowing into the estuary in the first place?
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Nov 4, 2020 01:31
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FacelessVoid posted:If I understand your post, you're implying the only way an ecosystem can be balanced is if humans do some kind of predation to take nutrients out of it. Why can this not be done through natural predators? Or just balancing the nutrients flowing into the estuary in the first place? Because the human pop is way above the level that byproducts from ag production can be managed in a hands off naturalistic way op
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Nov 4, 2020 01:36
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Crumbskull posted:Because the human pop is way above the level that byproducts from ag production can be managed in a hands off naturalistic way op It is important to note that if we engineer wetland so the runoff runs through it and gets to linger a bit, it can be reclaimed by weeds we can feed to animals or compost. In the case of those weeds we can capture the energy by eating the animals, drinking their milk or fermenting them for biogas. Every approach has its upsides and downsides, though the first one... isn't super great. The only points where animals eating the food and us eating the animals is a preferable approach from a resources perspective are grazing and dealing with damaged / spoiled produce that wouldn't survive the processing required to make it human food. But unless we entirely ruin the ecosystems of rivers to turn them into filters, this won't be enough to prevent the estuary from accumulating nutrients (and eventually, the sea or ocean - I live close to the Baltic and it's been one hell of a political fight to get the decline to stop). Also the farmers generally don't want to spend a bunch of extra time and dedicate land to stinky pits of recycling. Agricorps even less so. If we leave it to natural predators the nutrients just stay in the same cycle in the coastal area for the most part, it'll overwhelm the available oxygen, and we're at a point where the ecosystem collapses into a pool of hungry slime.
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Nov 4, 2020 02:03
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Crumbskull posted:i wrote my bachelor's capstone paper on the fascist/nazi roots in the organic farming movement and was almost excommunicated from my sustainable ag program lmao I'm extremely interested in hearing more about this
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Nov 4, 2020 02:44
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just gonna kramer in here without reading pages 2 through 6 and point out that b12 is produced by bacteria in the soil, farm animals are given b12 supplements/injections now since the soil is dead and animals aren't even allowed to live on the soil anyway, and eating meat for b12 given that animals have to have b12 supplements anyway is just taking b12 supplements with extra steps also not a vegan myself (tried it for one year, it was not great) but the b12 objection is dumb
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Nov 4, 2020 20:20
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I've been vegan for nearly a year now and it's the easiest thing ever now but then I can afford $9 vegan cheese occasionally and oat/soy milk that costs double what cow milk does here (don't buy almond it uses an absurd amount of water to produce and it tastes like almonds). If you can't afford vegan luxuries the best thing you can do is scale back your consumption and do even a little to increase demand for vegan products. It will be more affordable in our lifetimes. Escaping the cognitive dissonance of carnism has been incredibly freeing and has taught me to cook better and enjoy food more than ever before.
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Nov 4, 2020 20:41
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Hashy posted:I've been vegan for nearly a year now and it's the easiest thing ever now but then I can afford $9 vegan cheese occasionally and oat/soy milk that costs double what cow milk does here (don't buy almond it uses an absurd amount of water to produce and it tastes like almonds). my favorite part of being vegan was figuring out how to cook chickpeas in like 15 different amazing ways, 9 dollar vegan cheese is totally not necessary to enjoy being vegan the part that sucked was all social, not the eating part itself
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Nov 4, 2020 20:43
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You definitely don't but I do like a lot of vegan alternatives every so often (meat-likes, cheeses, ice-cream etc). Most carnists actually spend a load on food and still balk at the prices of vegan alternatives. Those people will probably find they don't spend any more to be a moderately indulgent vegan
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Nov 4, 2020 20:49
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Hashy posted:You definitely don't but I do like a lot of vegan alternatives every so often (meat-likes, cheeses, ice-cream etc). yeah that's totally true, and the alternatives can be fun and tasty. we didn't really get much of that stuff though, it felt like the year we were vegans our grocery bills were almost non-existent, but we were eating really well. i got so good at cooking indian food. it's incredible - there's so many youtube videos of indian women cooking up meals and they're super easy to follow, and don't take as many spices as you would think. but yeah if you aren't buying steak and bacon you can easily afford fancy milks and ice creams and i guess cheeses. unfortunately the only vegan ice cream i liked was coconut-milk ice cream, and i became a vegan mostly for ecological reasons (i'm against factory farming but okay with killing animals to eat them provided they have a good life and can express themselves naturally [as in, pigs like to root around and raising them on concrete slabs should be illegal]) so coconut-milk ice cream was also out.
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Nov 4, 2020 21:06
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Not to be "that vegan", but veganism is more than just eating plants. It's a philosophy which acknowledges animals' rights not to be harmed and exploited, and eating a plant based diet is a subset of that philosophy, but it also means that you're not necessarily vegan just based on your diet if you don't also subscribe to the philosophy in other aspects of your life.
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Nov 4, 2020 23:22
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Also I lied, I love being "that vegan"
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Nov 4, 2020 23:23
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people getting mad at nobody telling them they can't eat cheese
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Nov 4, 2020 23:30
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Bot 02 posted:Not to be "that vegan", but veganism is more than just eating plants. It's a philosophy which acknowledges animals' rights not to be harmed and exploited, and eating a plant based diet is a subset of that philosophy, but it also means that you're not necessarily vegan just based on your diet if you don't also subscribe to the philosophy in other aspects of your life. Yeah, this is why I am pretty careful to always say I eat a plant based diet because I, for example, still use rubber bike tires with casein and wear used leather shoes and fundamentally do not agree that animal welfare is more important than human welfare while at the same time recognizing that causing animals to suffer is bad and should be avoided to the greatest practicable extent.
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Nov 4, 2020 23:34
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Crumbskull posted:Yeah, this is why I am pretty careful to always say I eat a plant based diet because I, for example, still use rubber bike tires with casein and wear used leather shoes and fundamentally do not agree that animal welfare is more important than human welfare while at the same time recognizing that causing animals to suffer is bad and should be avoided to the greatest practicable extent. i have cats and buy them meat food i do what i am comfortable with and for those i care about
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Nov 4, 2020 23:35
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