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Procrastinator posted:it may be too soon to really tell, but how does Brandon Cutler's run stand on the scale of losing streak gimmicks? Are there any actually historically good ones? Because they always get guff when brought up. My favorite is still HOROWITZ WINS! HOROWITZ WINS! HOROWITZ WINS! With 123 Kid a close second. I like Brandon a lot though, I hope he gets elevated.
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Nov 2, 2020 23:18
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bartok posted:That was afterwards. The MVP losing gimmick is the epitome of it done terribly. It was doomed from the start because MVP came out of the gate with a feud with the Brothers of Destruction and was presented as a big deal. The guy was also a good promo and a decent worker so it made no sense why he was suddenly a jobber especially coming out that fun Matt Hardy feud. Plus it ended in the lamest way possible by having MVP pin Big Show thanks to interference from HHH. I'd say you could plausibly have someone established hit a rough patch and slowly fall down the ranks until they hit rock-bottom and have to build themselves back up. Likely you'd need a turn or some gimmick reinvention as a catalyst for reversing their fallen fortunes, but it could be done. One of the worst things WWE's managed to do creatively speaking is convince themselves that a gently caress finish is just as good as a clean win at getting the person who wins over.
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Nov 2, 2020 23:36
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Disco Inferno had a losing streak gimmick. I want to think it was right at his WCW introduction. IIRC, Disco debuted on Saturday Night or a syndicated program against a jobber. You'd expect him to win easily, but Disco got distracted by his hair or dancing and was small packaged. Then he forgot to do the spinning toehold (or variation thereof) and even went to the point of bringing instructions to the ring. Not much was made out of it and I don't remember it being done well, because WCW. I just remember bits and pieces of it happening.
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Nov 2, 2020 23:42
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It was the figure 4 he needed an instruction sheet for, i believe. I kinda want Yano or someone to do that with the Paradise Lock.
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Nov 2, 2020 23:52
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It was Disco Inferno's Brand New Leg Hold, better known as the standing reverse figure four, also known as Hollywood and Vine when Steve Austin used it in WCW. Think a Nagata Lock, but the guy applying it never drops to the ground.
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Nov 3, 2020 02:49
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davidbix posted:It was Disco Inferno's Brand New Leg Hold, better known as the standing reverse figure four, also known as Hollywood and Vine when Steve Austin used it in WCW. Think a Nagata Lock, but the guy applying it never drops to the ground. IIRC he claimed it was the leglock his uncle used on deadbeats who owed him money
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Nov 3, 2020 02:51
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The best thing about the hand drawn instructions was the opponent figure was drawn with a frowny face.
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Nov 3, 2020 04:59
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Okay so what are your guys top ten matches of 2020 looking like thus far?
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Nov 3, 2020 21:25
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Davros1 posted:The best thing about the hand drawn instructions was the opponent figure was drawn with a frowny face. It wouldn't be a very good hold if they had a smiley face, would it?
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Nov 3, 2020 21:28
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Breitbart Is Rightbart posted:Okay so what are your guys top ten matches of 2020 looking like thus far? my top 10 this year is like 3 ddt matches, 4 choco pro matches, ibushi and okada at the tokyo dome and dragunov and WALTER
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Nov 3, 2020 23:52
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Breitbart Is Rightbart posted:Okay so what are your guys top ten matches of 2020 looking like thus far? like 5 tjpw matches, yano vs zsj and 4/5 DDT matches depending on how your count a certain double title match.
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Nov 3, 2020 23:57
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Struggling with my top ten because a lot of New Japan's stuff has left me cold this year (I really didn't like the G1 as much as others did), but off the top of my head: Omega/Page vs. Bucks Okada/Naito, Wrestle Kingdom WALTER/Dragunov Moxley/Suzuki Moxley/MJF Omega/PAC Hiromu/Ryu Lee
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Nov 4, 2020 00:08
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Breitbart Is Rightbart posted:Okay so what are your guys top ten matches of 2020 looking like thus far? Ibushi/Okada Naito/Okada Hagman & Kenny vs Young Bucks Suzuki/Nagata 1 Suzuki/Nagata 2 Shingo/Suzuki Ishii/Cobb Ishii/Taichi Ishii/Suzuki Ibushi/Suzuki There were a couple of other matches that might have a case for top 10, but off the top of my head I guess this is something like it.
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Nov 4, 2020 00:23
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Breitbart Is Rightbart posted:Okay so what are your guys top ten matches of 2020 looking like thus far? Go Shiozaki vs Kenoh is #1, and I'd also have Kenoh vs Nakajima title match, Go vs Marufuji, Go vs Kiyomiya from 4/1, Axiz vs Mochizuki & Marufuji, so that's at least half NOAH. And the Battlarts 6 man tag on the Yone 25th anniversary show would be in consideration coz that poo poo was wild. Also would be either in the top 10 or near it: Endo vs Tanaka from DDT, Ospreay vs ZSJ from Rev Pro, WALTER vs Ilja from NXTUK, Hiromu vs Ryu Lee, Ishii Taichi, Ishii Takagi, Ishii White, Suzuki Nagata, Doi vs Kzy, Doi vs Eita. And Arisa Nakajima vs Yoshiko from SEaDLINNNG, the first Iwatani vs Irohma Stardom match, Kagetsu vs Meiko Satomura, Sareee vs Chihiro Hashimoto A lot of good stuff to choose from, this is just off the top of my head and I realise I've named nearly 20 matches forkboy84 fucked around with this message at 00:30 on Nov 4, 2020 |
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Nov 4, 2020 00:25
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i amend my pick to put kenny and hangman vs the bucks in
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Nov 4, 2020 00:41
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Breitbart Is Rightbart posted:Okay so what are your guys top ten matches of 2020 looking like thus far? I've only ranked matches I've seen live because it's an unfair comparison to seeing stuff on TV but this is mine 1. Kazuchika Okada vs. Tetsuya Naito - NJPW 1.5 2. Minoru Fujita & Rina Yamashita vs. Jun Kasai & Masashi Takeda - FREEDOMS 10.4 3. Kagetsu vs. Meiko Satomura - many face 2.24 4. Jun Kasai vs. Toshiyuki Sakuda - FREEDOMS 7.28 5. Saori Anou vs. Mayumi Ozaki - OZ Academy 8.28 6. Rina Yamashita vs. Risa Sera - Ice Ribbon 8.9 7. Eruption vs. #DAMNHEARTS - DDT 6.20 8. Yoshiko vs. Arisa Nakajima - SEAdLINNNG 7.13 9. Tsukushi vs. Suzu Suzuki - Ice Ribbon 9.20 10. Yuna Mizumori, Mitsuru Konno & SAKI vs. Masa Takanashi, Choun Shiryu & Hagane Shinnou - Gatoh Move 2.9
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Nov 4, 2020 04:58
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Breitbart Is Rightbart posted:Okay so what are your guys top ten matches of 2020 looking like thus far? Not going to rank them else I'll be stuck on this post for several hours, but Kazuchika Okada vs Kota Ibushi - NJPW Jan 4 Hiromu Takahashi vs Will Ospreay NJPW Jan 4 Tetsuya Endo vs Masato Tanaka DDT June 7 Arisa Nakajima vs Asuka - SEAd Jun 13 Yuji Okabayashi vs Ayato Yoshida - 2AW July 5 Kenoh vs Go Shiozaki - NOAH Aug 10 Masaaki Mochizuki vs Kaito Kiyomiya NOAH Sept 19 Katsuhiko Nakajima vs Kaito Kiyomiya NOAH Oct 11 Kenta vs Yoshi-Hashi NJPW Oct 14 Eruption vs Disaster Box/Nautilus - DDT Oct 25 So by promotion, it's NJPW (3), NOAH (3), DDT (2), SEAdLINNNG (1), and 2AW (1) And there's so much fantastic wrestling I didn't mention 
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Nov 4, 2020 05:34
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GEORGE W BUSHI posted:I've only ranked matches I've seen live because it's an unfair comparison to seeing stuff on TV but this is mine davidbix fucked around with this message at 05:38 on Nov 4, 2020 |
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Nov 4, 2020 05:36
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El Gallinero Gros posted:My favorite is still "Randy, Bill, you beat 'em! You beat 'em!" Mulkeymania was 1-180 that day in that 1987 qualifying match for the Crockett Cup.
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Nov 4, 2020 05:55
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I decided to see if I could find this Mulkeys win for myself. So I guess the story was they wanted the Mulkeys in the Crockett cup but had to give them somebody to actually beat to qualify? It wasn't even a match really. Is there any evidence of the Mulkeys being able to actually do wrestling moves other than 'oops my opponent tripped over me'?
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Nov 4, 2020 06:54
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davidbix posted:Please tell me more about this 2020 Mayumi Ozaki match that I need to watch. When I saw her live at the NYC leg of the Chikara Joshimania weekend, she looked pretty washed—savvy and fun to watch, but washed—and that was almost nine years ago. But she's Mayumi Ozaki, so I can totally see a scenario where she could have an amazing match in 2020. Ozaki's whole shtick is that as owner of OZ Academy, all her matches devolve into her personal corrupt referee Mio Shirai allowing (and joining in with) her underlings to beat the poo poo out of her opponents, so most of her matches are a big torture session on the babyface followed by the big hope spot that almost always gets cut off. The story going into this one was that Saori is a member of the OZ Seiki-gun and Ozaki's handpicked heir. If you hate gimmicky brawl stuff then you'll hate it, but it was a great story of Saori trying to prove herself to her mentor.
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Nov 4, 2020 07:00
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Breitbart Is Rightbart posted:Okay so what are your guys top ten matches of 2020 looking like thus far? No order: Okada/Ibushi in the Dome Moxley/Suzuki from New Beginning Kenny & Hangman/Lucha Brothers, Dynamite Kenny/PAC, Dynamite Kenny & Hangman/Bucks, Revolution Nyla/Riho for the title, Dynamite Nyla/Shida, Double Or Nothing Ishii/Suzuki in the G1 Ishii/Ibushi in the G1 Ibushi/Taichi in the G1
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Nov 4, 2020 07:21
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i don't remember. Not sure if i don't like wrestling a lot or if i just forget everything from being terminally online and moving on to the next thing for the past 20 years. (sorry if you weren't asking me)
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Nov 4, 2020 07:38
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So I just finished reading Mick Foley's novel Tietam Brown. It was pretty good for a wrestler penned novel. I have also read 2 of his autobiographies, (Haven't read Hardcore Diaries or his Santa book), and thought they were kind of cool. I read Bret Hart's autobiography and found it hugely disappointing, (he comes across as a precious, humourless crybaby who simultaeneously brags about knowing that wrestling is a "work", but in the next breath will whinge that he has to lose to someone. Jericho's first book is another one I read and liked. My question is, what are the good, (or bad), wrestling books that more informed people than me could recommend
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Nov 4, 2020 11:06
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BrigadierSensible posted:So I just finished reading Mick Foley's novel Tietam Brown. It was pretty good for a wrestler penned novel.
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Nov 4, 2020 11:13
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BrigadierSensible posted:So I just finished reading Mick Foley's novel Tietam Brown. It was pretty good for a wrestler penned novel. If you want a really loving messy "book", you should be able to find Diana Hart's book online. I think it was withheld from being published for libel or something along those lines but the last time I looked someone put it up on Facebook of all places & it's loving bonkers. For more reasonable, I enjoyed Regal's book.
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Nov 4, 2020 11:26
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Procrastinator posted:it may be too soon to really tell, but how does Brandon Cutler's run stand on the scale of losing streak gimmicks? Are there any actually historically good ones? Because they always get guff when brought up. Thinking back, Chikara did actually pull off a decent losing streak angle with Shane Storm. Shane's deal was that he had a traffic regulator/construction worker gimmick, a cartoony clown mask with a blond mullet and some decent agility despite being overweight. For a time, he was one of the more marketed members of the Chikara roster due to his unique look. He was fine, but nothing special. In 2007, when Chikara started the year with its first ever King of Trios, the winning team was Quack and his two prize pupils Jigsaw and Shane Storm. As with pretty much every face in Chikara, once he reached his major character payoff, he just faded into the background. Outside of some multi-man matches, Shane had a terrible 2007 after Trios. He lost practically every singles match he had. His attempts in the tag division didn't do much better, pissing off his partner Jigsaw enough to dissolve the team. In the storyline of 2007 Chikara, Mike Quackenbush was the trainer for the faces while Chris Hero was the trainer for the heels. They had a long-awaited Quack vs. Hero match that ended with Quack debuting a new submission hold called the Chikara Special that Hero couldn't escape and made him tap out. Knowing that it was capable of taking out Hero like that, Quack threatened to teach it to all the students, though only teaching how to escape it to the faces. Throughout the rest of the year, various wrestlers were able to get surprise wins over Hero by busting out the Chikara Special. Shane had a match against Hydra, a scrawny heel in a monster mask who believed himself to be more Batista than Barry Horowitz. Hydra was starting to gain a real following and was easily more over than Shane, so it annoyed and confused fans when Hydra's boss UltraMantis Black interfered in the match and sabotaged Hydra. It was a strange moment, but at the time there was no follow-up. Later on the same show, they had Chris Hero vs. masked midcarder-at-best luchador Equinox in a hair vs. mask match. Equinox put Hero in the Chikara Special, but Hero was able to escape it and defeat Equinox with the same hold. On commentary, Quack was confused and pissed. After the match, Equinox was forced to unmask and reveal that he was Vin Gerard, a former Wrestle Factory student who couldn't hack it and decided to get on shows by pretending to be a luchador. Gerard was immediately turned into a locker room pariah and was pushed as the new top heel with Hero on the way out of the company. In 2008, there was a match between white-meat babyface Tim Donst and UltraMantis Black. Donst lost and was so woozy from being dropped on his head that UltraMantis was able to brainwash him into thinking he was part of UltraMantis' stable. For a few months, an amnesiac Donst would wear facepaint and follow UltraMantis' lead. Shane was still losing matches at first, though against the top heels of the company like Vin Gerard, Eddie Kingston and Brodie Lee. He started teaming with Quack and they showed great success. They won their third consecutive match, which would mean a title shot in their future. While Shane celebrated, Tim Donst ran out and whispered something in Quack's ear. Quack suddenly freaked out and beat the poo poo out of Shane until Shane ran away. Quack explained to the crowd that Donst was always fine and wasn't suffering amnesia. He only played along with UltraMantis for the sake of being a mole and finding out who the hell sold Quack out and taught Hero the Chikara Special counter. It was Shane, who was so desperate for a win at the time that he gave away the secret in exchange for that guaranteed win over Hydra. Quack had a few matches with an apologetic Shane that involved kicking the poo poo out of him some more. Being hated by everyone for his actions, Shane Storm joined Vin Gerard and they became the UnStable. Shane changed his look into something more Venom-like and changed his name to Stigma. Later joined by Colin Delaney, the UnStable lasted a few years. Despite being a heel, Stigma was on Chikara's side during the initial BDK feud. He suggested that he and Quack still could cash in on their unused title shot, but Quack refused out of principle and instead earned a title shot with Jigsaw as his partner.
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Nov 4, 2020 11:59
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Where do people rank the Mankind / Undertaker "Boiler Room Brawl" compared to modern cinematic matches? Or can it actually be compared?
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Nov 4, 2020 14:21
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Lamuella posted:Where do people rank the Mankind / Undertaker "Boiler Room Brawl" compared to modern cinematic matches? Or can it actually be compared? Its basically just a falls count anywhere match. A very good one. I'd say it's not really the same.
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Nov 4, 2020 15:28
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Seconding Regal's book as an open and honest look at the business (good and bad). I also enjoyed Edge's and Daniel Bryan's books, they also felt quite honest and open but were much lighter reads.
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Nov 4, 2020 15:41
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Lamuella posted:Where do people rank the Mankind / Undertaker "Boiler Room Brawl" compared to modern cinematic matches? Or can it actually be compared? I could easily see it as a precursor to the cinematic match, but I think the whole actual boiler room segment was recorded in one take. It was essentially just a hardcore match that was mostly pre-taped.
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Nov 4, 2020 15:51
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BrigadierSensible posted:So I just finished reading Mick Foley's novel Tietam Brown. It was pretty good for a wrestler penned novel. I enjoyed the Nitro book too. Reading the Bret Hart one now.
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Nov 4, 2020 19:35
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I love Bret's book in spite of his view of himself. My only confusion with his book is his frustration with Japanese audiences (who were super quiet).
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Nov 4, 2020 19:51
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His assertion that Tiger Mask II wasn’t very good is really funny in retrospect but maybe he wasn’t that good yet idk
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Nov 4, 2020 19:55
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jesus WEP posted:His assertion that Tiger Mask II wasn’t very good is really funny in retrospect but maybe he wasn’t that good yet idk Two months after Hart wrestled Tiger Mask II, Mitsuharu Misawa main event the Budokan against Jumbo Tsuruta in an absolutely iconic breakout performance where Baba decided on the night that Misawa had to go over. A match which really holds up. I think it's just Bret & Misawa didn't mesh. It happens.
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Nov 4, 2020 20:08
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ChrisBTY posted:I decided to see if I could find this Mulkeys win for myself. So I guess the story was they wanted the Mulkeys in the Crockett cup but had to give them somebody to actually beat to qualify? At one point I had thought I had seen one of them listed as a trainer to some other folks, but can't seem to relocate it now. Watching through that era of JCP I can't say for certain I ever saw them get a real offensive move in.
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Nov 4, 2020 21:36
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TL posted:I could easily see it as a precursor to the cinematic match, but I think the whole actual boiler room segment was recorded in one take. It was essentially just a hardcore match that was mostly pre-taped. What about the Hollywood Backlot Brawl as a part of the WWF's tradition of cinematic wrestling.
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Nov 4, 2020 21:44
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The worst gimmick tournament reminded me that Dr. Death (w/ Oklahoma) lost a steel cage match to Jerry Only from the Misfits (w/ Vampiro) on an episode of Monday Nitro. I guess my question is why?
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Nov 4, 2020 21:47
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bartok posted:The worst gimmick tournament reminded me that Dr. Death (w/ Oklahoma) lost a steel cage match to Jerry Only from the Misfits (w/ Vampiro) on an episode of Monday Nitro. I guess my question is why? 
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Nov 5, 2020 01:05
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BrigadierSensible posted:I read Bret Hart's autobiography and found it hugely disappointing, (he comes across as a precious, humourless crybaby who simultaeneously brags about knowing that wrestling is a "work", but in the next breath will whinge that he has to lose to someone. Jericho's first book is another one I read and liked. That said: It's a long book that was edited down from a version three times as long and I can barely remember stories in there where he complains about jobbing. Montreal was a very specific set of circumstances that I want to avoid relitigating here for my own sanity, there's the Dino Bravo thing where he fractured his sternum but tried to continue the match because he didn't want to lost to such a far inferior worker in Canada, there's him asking that the Tom Magee match never be aired on television...and I think that's it? You also need to realize that this modern complete and total compliance with every suggested finish way of doing things is a byproduct of WWE's labor suppression. There are plenty of scenarios where a wrestler doing the job is the wrong move and the wrestler should stand his or her ground. All of the cases where Brett took issue were perfectly reasonable. Obviously some wrestlers can take it too far, but Bret Hart is absolutely not one of them. forkboy84 posted:If you want a really loving messy "book", you should be able to find Diana Hart's book online. I think it was withheld from being published for libel or something along those lines but the last time I looked someone put it up on Facebook of all places & it's loving bonkers. Lamuella posted:Where do people rank the Mankind / Undertaker "Boiler Room Brawl" compared to modern cinematic matches? Or can it actually be compared?
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Nov 5, 2020 01:50
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