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Thanatosian posted:SMDP is the scourge, but the spoiler effect has been talked about for at least 60 years, probably longer (Downs is the dude I've read, there's a good chance there were others before him, though). Let's not pretend there aren't serious downsides to "voting for who you support" in first-past-the-post. Correct, fptp makes 3rd parties a waste of time except in areas where it is Dem vs Dem anyways.
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Nov 5, 2020 22:36
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"This system sucks and here's why." Can we maybe use a different system? "No this poo poo sucks but it's what we got. Play the game, you loving moron." But I'm hungry and broke? "VOTE."
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Nov 5, 2020 22:52
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Refusing to adapt to the broken system does not fix it.
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Nov 5, 2020 22:57
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My friend, you were going to be hungry and broke no matter who won the Mayoral race. As for changing the system this seems like an ideal moment to get to work on getting ranked choice for Multnomah county. Maybe get the DSA involved because they contributed to a fantastically well run campaign in Preschool for All. Seriously, that ballot initiative hit so many hurdles and just obliterated all of them.
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Nov 5, 2020 23:00
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Qylvaran posted:Refusing to adapt to the broken system does not fix it. Tell black people to “adapt” to getting shot by a cop, got it.
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Nov 5, 2020 23:02
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Reform is a word privileged folks get to use when they aren't the ones staring down the barrel of a gun on a daily basis.
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Nov 5, 2020 23:03
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Let’s be real, it’s just about the modern political reality and not a stale narrative or anything quote:I must make two honest confessions to you, my Christian and Jewish brothers. First, I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season." Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.
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Nov 5, 2020 23:09
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poo poo POST MALONE posted:"This system sucks and here's why."
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Nov 5, 2020 23:10
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I'm not sure how the white moderate quote applies here. Unless you're talking about Raiford's lack of support in the primary or something.
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Nov 5, 2020 23:12
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I'd rather just vote a waiter into office
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Nov 5, 2020 23:12
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Seeing Wheeler get reelected doesn't give me much hope that Durkan gets her rear end kicked out next election.
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Nov 5, 2020 23:15
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seiferguy posted:Seeing Wheeler get reelected doesn't give me much hope that Durkan gets her rear end kicked out next election. Especially given that this is a Presidential election year, and next year isn't even a Congressional election year.
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Nov 5, 2020 23:16
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Getting working people involved and in office would be great. Nobody like that was on the ballot.
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Nov 5, 2020 23:16
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e: I like to think a presidential year when you don't have Mr. Shoot em in the legs at the top of the ballot would be a good thing.
Gerund fucked around with this message at 23:19 on Nov 5, 2020 |
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Nov 5, 2020 23:17
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The Puppy Bowl posted:I'm not sure how the white moderate quote applies here. Unless you're talking about Raiford's lack of support in the primary or something. Attacking a black candidate (and her supporters) instead of the white people who voted for the white supremacists because they aren’t being “strategic” is pretty gross. To tell people to be patient on the whole getting murdered thing instead of figuring out why they don’t play your game (hint it’s because the game adapts too to continue exploiting black people) isn’t a good argument.
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Nov 5, 2020 23:19
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I'd call protests, ballot initiatives, or even armed revolt "adaptation" in this sense. I just mean doing something that starts with acknowledging the reality of the situation. There are theoretical reasons to run as a third party candidate in our current system, but they all come at the expense of the candidate that people voting for you would be voting for otherwise, almost always to the benefit of the candidate least like you.
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Nov 5, 2020 23:30
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Thaddius the Large posted:Attacking a black candidate (and her supporters) instead of the white people who voted for the white supremacists because they aren’t being “strategic” is pretty gross. To tell people to be patient on the whole getting murdered thing instead of figuring out why they don’t play your game (hint it’s because the game adapts too to continue exploiting black people) isn’t a good argument. I'm not telling anyone to be patient. I'm saying the best move for the here and now was to elect the person who's sworn to get the Portland police commissioner role out of the hands of a white supremacist instead of voting for someone who had zero chance of winning. The fact that we couldn't get Ted out of office in this environment means the people who share the goal of a more equitable and just Portland lost. I view most Raiford's supporters overwhelmingly as my allies in the pursuit of a better community. I'm not disappointed in Wheeler voters for the same reason I'm not disappointed in Trump voters. I think they mostly knew what they were getting and wanted it. They wanted Law and Order over justice and equity. So politically they're my enemies. And for the record I think there is plenty of blame to go around. Iannarone didn't do near enough to build a coalition after progressing to the general. Raiford's pursuit of ideals over outcomes was selfish. Hardesty showed horrible political instincts not running, then supporting Ted, then withdrawing support for Ted well after it would have mattered. It's a huge mess that we all clearly saw coming but couldn't swerve to avoid. We hosed up bad and it sucks.
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Nov 5, 2020 23:37
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The Puppy Bowl posted:I'm not telling anyone to be patient. I'm saying the best move for the here and now was to elect the person who's sworn to get the Portland police commissioner role out of the hands of a white supremacist instead of voting for someone who had zero chance of winning. The fact that we couldn't get Ted out of office in this environment means the people who share the goal of a more equitable and just Portland lost. I view most Raiford's supporters overwhelmingly as my allies in the pursuit of a better community. I'm not disappointed in Wheeler voters for the same reason I'm not disappointed in Trump voters. I think they mostly knew what they were getting and wanted it. They wanted Law and Order over justice and equity. So politically they're my enemies. You’re totally right about there being blame to go around, but I see this in a way you framed it earlier, folks were going to be hungry and broke no matter who won, and thousands of people didn’t see Iannarone as being a better option than Wheeler. Maybe that was her campaign not doing the right outreach and winning black voters, maybe it was because some people don’t believe a white person can ever represent them, etc etc, as you say there are plenty of reasons, but the only way it works to say that this was a strategic vote is if people accept that electoral model as being how their lives are governed. The names on the door can change but the treatment doesn’t, so why bother with either of them? I’m not saying I agree with that, but it’s been the perspective of the people I know that support Raiford, and I think that’s a perspective worth respecting. Winning or losing or even what the system is can be up for debate, so reducing it to “you can only have Iannarone vs Wheeler” is convenient for our purposes but isn’t how everyone sees it. Our political reality is defined by far more than elected officials, a cop shooting a random black person is also exercising political force, albeit extrajudicial.
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Nov 5, 2020 23:53
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Totally agree that elections are not the only political theater. Hell I don't think they even make up a majority of the political landscape. Where we seem to disagree is exactly where pragmatism should be deployed and what that looks like. I view the prospects of any write in campaign as basically doomed and haven't heard a convincing argument from Raiford supporters about what a vote for her gets us. Frankly I don't like Iannarone or Raiford or really anyone who ran in the primary this year. Still, I care about the the political dynamics. If Iannarone had won she would have done so with a voting block of BLM/Care Not Cops etc. support and she would have known it. I think that would put her in a position where she'd be more receptive to pressure from those groups. Conversely, Wheeler just won with all those political forces aligned against him. I fear he's going to run even further authoritarian in response. In light of this dynamic I don't understand the six of one, half dozen of the other thinking on this race. Wheeler is almost certain to be a worse version of himself the next 4 years. I'd be surprised if anyone thought Iannarone was likely to reach that level of awful. Regardless we've got a lot of work to do to hold poo poo together the next few years. Hopefully this can be a come to Jesus moment to get ourselves more organized. The ballot measure success this year is encouraging on that front at least.
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Nov 6, 2020 00:19
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The question is whether it's worth letting Wheeler win in order to make a point. I think there's definitely an argument to be made that it is, but you should go in knowing that writing in in this case, that was what you were voting for. But "you should always vote for whatever candidate best fits your ideology in this two-party SMDP hellscape" is some stupid poo poo.
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Nov 6, 2020 00:28
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Why don't we try to campaign for rank choice voting? Push it as a ballot initiative?
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Nov 6, 2020 00:35
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Apparently it's already a thing in Benton County so no reason we can't do the same in Multnomah.
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Nov 6, 2020 00:41
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punk rebel ecks posted:Why don't we try to campaign for rank choice voting? Push it as a ballot initiative? Yes, do this. Change the failed system instead of just failing on purpose.
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Nov 6, 2020 00:49
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The thing about electing the less distasteful mainstream candidate is you become part of their winning coalition, so even if you are cynical about their true beliefs, they know they might need you to get re-elected and that grants influence.
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Nov 6, 2020 00:52
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The Puppy Bowl posted:Frankly I don't like Iannarone or Raiford or really anyone who ran in the primary this year. Still, I care about the the political dynamics. If Iannarone had won she would have done so with a voting block of BLM/Care Not Cops etc. support and she would have known it. I think that would put her in a position where she'd be more receptive to pressure from those groups. This is fundamentally the wrong conclusion that leads to electability politics. "If we compromise and vote in this wishy washy half-solution candidate, they'll know we were a big part of their coalition and we can push them to do the right thing!" Nope. We have representative government officials, not recallable delegates. They're in office now; your leverage as a voter existed solely during their campaign when their victory was in doubt and they needed to build a voting coalition to win by adopting policy positions of that coalition. Your ability to pressure them is now zero until the next election in which they will point at Hitler 2 (because there's always Hitler 2) and make the exact same argument that they did last time, except with even more confidence that they'll get away with it and scare people into re-electing them. Their concerns in office are always going to be driven far more by their partners in government and business that are required to actually implement their agenda, and guess what? Those include the entrenched players (like cop unions and BIDs) that you're struggling against. There really shouldn't be any expectation at all of "pressuring" an incumbent elected official to take a more radical stance than the one they entered office with, unless you're prepared to use a sustained direct action campaign that totally jams their ability to govern as a mechanism to force a concession. And at that point, you're just fighting the power of the government in the street again. And it loving sucks. Edit: I think ranked choice/IRV helps with this a bit, but ultimately doesn't solve the issue. Fully recallable delegation is a better solution but a) outside mainstream political discourse and b) harder to implement in a way ranked choice isn't because it's just a different ballot design but everything else about the election logistics is exactly the same. The Oldest Man fucked around with this message at 01:10 on Nov 6, 2020 |
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Nov 6, 2020 00:59
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I think that's reductive especially in the environment of a solidly D city mayoral election. A theoretical Iannarone challenger could be far to her left. Plus keeping your political allies your friends has a lot more value for someone Iess likely to land a cushy boardroom job like congress creatures invariably fall into. Even if you're entirely right the truth of this specific election stands. Ted Wheeler will be Mayor and even if Sarah were to be the worst version of herself that's almost certainly better than Wheeler when it comes to reigning in the cops.
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Nov 6, 2020 02:22
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Thanatosian posted:But "you should always vote for whatever candidate best fits your ideology in this two-party SMDP hellscape" is some stupid poo poo. nobody is saying "you should always vote for whatever candidate best fits your ideology" because if we truly believed that many of us would never cast another vote. what we're asking is that people stop ignoring the fact that these elections are intersections of a myriad of issues. trying to consistently pin the election outcomes on one single aspect of the entire race is cheap, lazy, and fundamentally undemocratic. folks want to scream about raiford voters (despite having no idea how much they actually affected the final vote count thanks to multco's refusal to tally them as anything other than 'write in') but don't seem to be chirping nearly as much over wheeler's massive campaign finance violations because, well, it's easier to criticize those out of power than hold those in power accountable.
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Nov 6, 2020 02:24
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Eggnogium posted:The thing about electing the less distasteful mainstream candidate is you become part of their winning coalition, so even if you are cynical about their true beliefs, they know they might need you to get re-elected and that grants influence. *citations needed
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Nov 6, 2020 02:30
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The Puppy Bowl posted:I think that's reductive especially in the environment of a solidly D city mayoral election. A theoretical Iannarone challenger could be far to her left. We have a Democratic mayor in Seattle, in a city that has elected no one except Democrats in 40 years, who owns 50 acres on a resort island, lives in a 5,000 square foot mansion in the richest neighborhood the city, who put random 20-something punk kids in solitary confinement for months after Mayday 2012 to try to get them to flip on an illusory PNW leftist radical organization's other members, came into office on a law & order and establishment/status-quo campaign with over $1mil in mostly corporate donations and since taking office has gassed protesters and entire neighborhoods and uses COINTELPRO style tactics on local organizers. Being solidly Democratic means little except that you need a D next to your name to win. Says nothing about whether the people who win under that banner are going to be responsive to the concerns of the people whatsoever. It's a bit silly to expect people to take "well, we could threaten her with a left challenger to put pressure on her" as a serious argument when the historical record is the exact opposite for anyone who assumes office under a mantle of progressivism. It's also a bit silly to think that a theoretical election threat 4 years in the future is going to be an effective pressure mechanism. quote:Plus keeping your political allies your friends has a lot more value for someone Iess likely to land a cushy boardroom job like congress creatures invariably fall into. Supporting someone who doesn't back your positions and over whom you have no effective negotiating leverage with which to force them into it doesn't make you an ally, it makes you a pawn. quote:Even if you're entirely right the truth of this specific election stands. Ted Wheeler will be Mayor and even if Sarah were to be the worst version of herself that's almost certainly better than Wheeler when it comes to reigning in the cops. Sure. Maybe. I think it's an equally valid perspective that someone with a platform that includes increasing training for cops would be an utter waste of space and accomplish nothing toward the end of reigning in the cops.
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Nov 6, 2020 02:44
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IM DAY DAY IRL posted:nobody is saying "you should always vote for whatever candidate best fits your ideology" because if we truly believed that many of us would never cast another vote. what we're asking is that people stop ignoring the fact that these elections are intersections of a myriad of issues. Actually people ARE saying that. And TBH their argument is more coherent than yours. The reason people aren’t criticizing Wheeler or his voters is because they view them as the enemy. If you lose a battle you don’t gripe that the enemy was unfair and criticize them for fighting you, you work with your allies to adjust your tactics so you can win next time.
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Nov 6, 2020 03:00
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Eggnogium posted:If you lose a battle you don’t gripe that the enemy was unfair and criticize them for fighting you, you work with your allies to adjust your tactics so you can win next time. are you loving kidding me lmao
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Nov 6, 2020 03:20
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Take the high road and tip your cap whilst doing so!
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Nov 6, 2020 03:21
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Just gonna Kramer in here and say if Raiford got 13% as a write in she was clearly the better more electable candidate and it's actually Iannarone voters who caused tgt to get elected by voting for a milquetoast white lady and vote shaming and if they had just held their noses and voted for the better option we wouldn't be here.
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Nov 6, 2020 03:31
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It’s not about the high road, it’s about brooking tactical criticism so that the left can actually one day win more than a tiny sliver of power in this country. But they never will because the same people who think voting is unimportant also are completely insecure about their vote being criticized.
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Nov 6, 2020 03:38
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meowmeowmeowmeow posted:Just gonna Kramer in here and say if Raiford got 13% as a write in she was clearly the better more electable candidate and it's actually Iannarone voters who caused tgt to get elected by voting for a milquetoast white lady and vote shaming and if they had just held their noses and voted for the better option we wouldn't be here. Agreed, Iannarone should not have run and her and her voters should have focused on promoting Raiford. That would have been the pragmatic way to advance the left cause.
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Nov 6, 2020 03:40
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Eggnogium posted:It’s not about the high road, it’s about brooking tactical criticism so that the left can actually one day win more than a tiny sliver of power in this country. What about Sarah Iannarone would you describe as "left" exactly?
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Nov 6, 2020 03:43
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Raiford lost in the open primary and then decided that she was going to run a write in. I don't understand how anyone can justify someone losing the primary and then deciding to split the vote by running in the general. It's incredibly lovely.
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Nov 6, 2020 03:49
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I thought she didn't run and that's why no one should have voted for her though
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Nov 6, 2020 03:52
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The Oldest Man posted:What about Sarah Iannarone would you describe as "left" exactly? Really? As compared to Wheeler? Oh wait no, you’re either still on square one where you either don’t understand the basic mathematical rules of FPTP elections or believe in accelerationism. In either case, I’m too tired to bother.
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Nov 6, 2020 03:53
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therobit posted:Raiford lost in the open primary and then decided that she was going to run a write in. raiford did not campaign, promote, or provide any material support for the write-in initiative but go off i guess
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Nov 6, 2020 03:54
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