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Seven Hundred Bee posted:I think the idea of "holding them accountable" is a larger proxy for "what does progressive activism look outside of voting in general elections?" That sounds like answering the question, "You voted for this monster, how are you going to hold him accountable for doing monstrous poo poo?" with "I'm going to get someone who wants to fund the busses elected to my local city council!" You can make an argument that a realpolitik assessment of the general is that a vote for Biden was a necessary evil as a holding action against fascism and that better things are possible through local electoralism to influence the national party's future policy platform. I disagree with that given how eagerly he enables and empowers regressives, but fine. But the idea of holding the current incoming president accountable for anything he does or has done is a joke. He's never been held accountable for anything in his life and never will be. He's going to kill have people - probably including Americans - extrajudicially executed as CiC and there's nothing we can do to hold him accountable for that even if the majority of Americans wanted to. The general election is the only accountability mechanism our entire system provides short of impeachment.
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Nov 10, 2020 00:12
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The problem, too, is that those are long-term strategies. The only way you can really hold entrenched interests accountable within a four year time span is through mass action, which doesn't have a promising recent track record.
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Nov 10, 2020 00:21
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I can't grade it on a scale, its clearly personal feeling, so I'll communicate it best I can: In early 2019 I went to the hospital due to uncontrolled, nearly lethal seizures. I was tied to a bed hooked up to an EEG machine and told that I would be kept awake non stop and monitored until another seizure happened. Then they could hopefully identify the part of my brain that was causing this and perform surgery on it asap. While I was assured that brain surgery was actually pretty precise these days, I could also see people outside my room struggling to relearn to walk after their ordeal. After being kept awake for a week I finally had a seizure. The doctors then came in and told me that I had been diagnosed with the wrong kind of epilepsy and that surgery wouldn't be necessary, only medication. I'm deal with side-effects from the medication and have the occasional flashback to that whole business and always will. I know my life is permanently hosed up by it. But I can't say I feel upset walking out of that hospital. My friends and family were there, my husband stayed overnight and, unlike when we first met, it wasn't even a big deal for gay people to share a hospital room anymore. I guess what I'm saying is that I feel relieved and a bit traumatized, though also a bit inspired by the humanity of those around me.
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Nov 10, 2020 00:35
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I'm decided that near term human extinction has been garaunteed op.
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Nov 10, 2020 00:47
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Sarcastro posted:The question of how this logic leads to anything other than accelerationism arises. (edit: once a Biden is the general candidate, I mean; certainly in primaries I agree that this matters) Voting for candidates who are further and further right because the other guy is worse is accelerationism
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Nov 10, 2020 01:28
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OwlFancier posted:The question of how you hold him accountable other than by not voting for him arises. This “it’s always the most perilous election ever, we are always told we have to just vote for the democrat” narrative got a lot of play here during this campaign, but I don’t think it’s true. I don’t remember it being that way with McCain or Romney. It wasn’t even that way with Dubya’s first term, only after 9/11 and his response was he truly demonised. Before that he was treated more as a sign of America’s stupidity than America’s evil. I’m sure the next republican candidates will benefit to a frightening degree from a sense of normality and decorum relative to Trump, and people may get their wish that Biden or Harris not be elected because they’re “just another Democrat” and “both sides are the same”. The Artificial Kid fucked around with this message at 03:44 on Nov 10, 2020 |
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Nov 10, 2020 03:34
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Dumper Humper posted:Voting for candidates who are further and further right because the other guy is worse is accelerationism No, voting for the least worst viable candidate (In a first past the post, non-preferential electoral system) is the rational response to the situation you’re in on Election Day, with the understanding that you need to work from there to try to be in a better situation on the next Election Day. Accelerationism is voting for the other guy because you don’t expect to ever be in a better situation on Election Day and you want to get the infinite series over with and start the revolution. It’s a bet on the ultimate failure of non-revolutionary efforts at improvement.
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Nov 10, 2020 03:43
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The Artificial Kid posted:This “it’s always the most perilous election ever, we are always told we have to just vote for the democrat” narrative got a lot of play here during this campaign, but I don’t think it’s true. I don’t remember it being that way with McCain or Romney. It wasn’t even that way with Dubya’s first term, only after 9/11 and his response was he truly demonised. Before that he was treated more as a sign of America’s stupidity than America’s evil. Hunter S. Thompson - Fear and Loathing on the Campaign Trail '72 posted:“How many more of these stinking, double-downer sideshows will we have to go through before we can get ourselves straight enough to put together some kind of national election that will give me and the at least 20 million people I tend to agree with a chance to vote FOR something, instead of always being faced with that old familiar choice between the lesser of two evils?” Same poo poo different bucket. I was told in my first Presidential election ever that if I didn't vote for Al Gore, I'd be drafted and would come to regret my heretical questioning of the Democrats when I bled out in the desert. Ed: just to clarify, yes, this was before 9/11. I was told the same poo poo but louder and angrier and by more people in 2004.
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Nov 10, 2020 04:03
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The Oldest Man posted:So Glass of Milk if he puts a bunch of Republicans in his cabinet and presses an austerity budget while a few million Americans end up in the street and the concentration camps stay open, will you commit right now to hold him accountable by not voting for him or Kamala Harris in 2024 regardless of what kind of shambling Lovecraftian horror the GOP nominates? Dixon Chisholm posted:Just a reminder, on 1/20/21 Joe Biden can legally put you on a classified kill list and have you vaporized, literally vaporized. That is the power differential you will have to overcome. Yes, there is a power differential. But to say that elections are the only way to effect change is patently untrue. If political power is the be all and end all, then how could Republicans, in charge of all branches of government, fail to repeal Obamacare? Look at the entire #MeToo movement, the civil rights movement, the gay rights movement, suffragists, and so forth: they effected change from without the halls of power. Lyndon B Johnson, a racist, signed the Civil Rights Act. It's the reason the quote "First they ignore you. Then they ridicule you. And then they attack you and want to burn you. And then they build monuments to you" exists. We all remember the "funny" South Park episodes that made fun of Al Gore, and now Biden wants a $2T Climate Plan. It's not enough, and so we still need to push, but drat if it isn't better than ridiculing environmentalists. Would we be better off under Bernie or someone of his ilk who wants to confront the issues more strongly? Yes. But if you think electing any one person to President is going to prevent us from having to continue to fight and advocate for important causes, you're wrong.
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Nov 10, 2020 05:59
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Glass of Milk posted:Yes, there is a power differential. But to say that elections are the only way to effect change is patently untrue. If political power is the be all and end all, then how could Republicans, in charge of all branches of government, fail to repeal Obamacare? Look at the entire #MeToo movement, the civil rights movement, the gay rights movement, suffragists, and so forth: they effected change from without the halls of power. Lyndon B Johnson, a racist, signed the Civil Rights Act. I missed the underlined part my first readthrough. There's so many words unrelated to how Biden can be held accountable that I missed it. Even reading it now, though, there's no real plan. There's just a invocation of previous movements. #MeToo is dead, killed to protect Joe Biden from Tara Reade. Civil rights, gay rights, and suffrage were all advanced by disruptive protest. All three groups had people willing to be beaten, jailed, and die for their cause. When I ask you how you will hold Biden accountable, it's not because I don't know about protest and direct action. I want to know if you do, and if you are willing to be brutalized for your beliefs. Are you willing to organize or participate in disruptive action? And I'm not advocating violent action, even though you will be called violent no matter what. I only push back against the idea of pushing Biden left because it seema like most people that espouse it have no idea just what it entails. Dixon Chisholm fucked around with this message at 06:33 on Nov 10, 2020 |
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Nov 10, 2020 06:08
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My nips can cut glass, op.
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Nov 10, 2020 06:10
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Dixon Chisholm posted:None of that explains how. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_movement
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Nov 10, 2020 06:22
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The general energy from the responses of this thread:
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Nov 10, 2020 06:34
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That article describes several conflicting theories of social movements, which do you ascribe to, how would you charecterize the movement you expect to participate in and what will be the primary strategiea and tactics?
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Nov 10, 2020 06:35
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That's not a plan, it's an encyclopedia entry. Dixon Chisholm posted:
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Nov 10, 2020 06:36
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1. Biden will not meaningfully change the course of the underlying systemic problems in any way. Things will continue to get worse for the growing lower class.Vincent Van Goatse posted:10.
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Nov 10, 2020 07:15
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Dumper Humper posted:Voting for candidates who are further and further right because the other guy is worse is accelerationism Imagine thinking Bill Clinton was better than modern democrats in any way.
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Nov 10, 2020 07:28
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Bodyholes posted:Imagine thinking Bill Clinton was better than modern democrats in any way. Remind me how many American citizens Bill Clinton publicly had assassinated with airstrikes again
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Nov 10, 2020 07:32
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Dixon Chisholm posted:That's not a plan, it's an encyclopedia entry. "We will press Joe Biden to be more of a leftist" is not a social movement. There must be a concerted effort on all of the many fronts that are important to us to push the issues that are important. And yeah, there's a lot of loving things that need pushing. I don't object to the idea of protest or direct action, or lack understanding of the consequences thereof. I only object to the attitude that Biden not be given a chance to be an ally in those fights as President, regardless of the stances he may have once taken in the past. Yeah, past may be prologue, and I wouldn't suggest that you implicitly trust ANY politician, but portending doom on a presidency before it even starts is, at best, misguided. It's not as though the organization and coalescing of protest and action groups has exactly suffered under Trump should the need arise for them to act.
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Nov 10, 2020 07:58
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Kalit posted:He has stated he would stop selling arms to Saudi Arabia and condemned their involvement in Yemen multiple times: https://www.forumarmstrade.org/2020_biden.html. This source also claims that Biden wants to end the forever war in Afghanistan which seems at odds with the messaging we've been getting over the last few months about how Trump isn't doing anything about the Russians giving bounty money to the Taliban.
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Nov 10, 2020 09:29
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2. Biden is a piece of poo poo who should never have been allowed anywhere near the levers of power, and Harris isn't really any better (though for different reasons than Biden). I'm loving terrified of what's coming in 2024 after four years of a Dem administration which does nothing to address people's material needs during a pandemic and a massive recession while the rich just keep getting richer, after four years of And then in 2024, we'll see massive GOP pickups, and possibly a Republican win the presidency. If that happens, we probably won't get lucky enough for them to be a total moron like Trump was, but rather get a competent one instead. A fascist president is not an aberration, but rather a natural result of the conditions that Biden is explicitly telling people he wants to return to. People are getting hosed every which way and they want relief, or if they can't have that, they want somebody who'll make everybody else a little worse off so they can look down on somebody. Guess what a fascist's gonna offer them. The only reason I'm going with a 2 and not a 1 is because I get to laugh at chuds losing what's left of their minds over this result.
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Nov 10, 2020 10:11
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Kreeblah posted:2. 
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Nov 10, 2020 11:31
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The Artificial Kid posted:This “it’s always the most perilous election ever, we are always told we have to just vote for the democrat” narrative got a lot of play here during this campaign, but I don’t think it’s true. I don’t remember it being that way with McCain or Romney. It wasn’t even that way with Dubya’s first term, only after 9/11 and his response was he truly demonised. Before that he was treated more as a sign of America’s stupidity than America’s evil. how old are you? people absolutely said that in 2008 and 2012 "Barack Obama, 2008' posted:"This is certainly the most important election in my lifetime — not just because I'm running." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72KhiU96YXM etc
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Nov 10, 2020 12:26
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Anyway to answer the question: 0
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Nov 10, 2020 12:35
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2 out of 10, just more white people prancing around doing gently caress all until a more competent fascist is put in that finally puts the nail in the coffin. If Joe doesnt forgive student load debt and roll out some form of UBI then he's poo poo and no president at all would have been better. I'm not at all stoked for Nothing: The Presidency but at least it's better than actual shithead with no gov't experience and thousands of rabid white supremacists at his beck and call.
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Nov 10, 2020 13:10
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3. I do not think Biden has it in him to make material improvements to the lives of most Americans and that will surely bring a lot of pain in 2022 and 2024. But at least he'll take covid more seriously than Trump ever did. Also there's something to be said about cabinet nominations; I don't think his nominations will be good (and I am fully expecting some of them to be outright bad) but at least he won't nominate people who will try to dismantle the department they're nominated to. If nothing else I'm glad that people like DeVos will no longer be in charge, y'know?
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Nov 10, 2020 13:40
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Crumbskull posted:I'm decided that near term human extinction has been garaunteed op. This must be intended as: 
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Nov 10, 2020 13:48
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For some of the pessimists, to include those who references the quote, it may be good to remember it was not saying he'd mostly keep things the way they are, but that rich lives wouldn't really change if they were taxed higher to support progressive programs like expanding health care, combating climate change and spending on infrastructure. He wasn't saying nothing would change for the poor and working class.quote:"The truth of the matter is, you all, you all know, you all know in your gut what has to be done. We can disagree in the margins but the truth of the matter is it’s all within our wheelhouse and nobody has to be punished. No one’s standard of living will change, nothing would fundamentally change. No ones standard of living would change. Nothing will fundamentally change.
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Nov 10, 2020 13:49
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3rdEyeDeuteranopia posted:For some of the pessimists, to include those who references the quote, it may be good to remember it was not saying he'd mostly keep things the way they are, but that rich lives wouldn't really change if they were taxed higher to support progressive programs like expanding health care, combating climate change and spending on infrastructure. He wasn't saying nothing would change for the poor and working class. And that's still a problem. Any policy stance that doesn't impact the class aggressors in any meaningful way doesn't go far enough.
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Nov 10, 2020 13:57
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Marx Was A Lib posted:And that's still a problem. Any policy stance that doesn't impact the class aggressors in any meaningful way doesn't go far enough. If this is your starting premise, I would say there wasn't a single candidate for the Democratic primary, nor any outside possibility of there ever being one in 2020 that would satisfy this, including Bernie. For all the rhetoric, there wasn't a single policy that Sanders supported that would have a meaningful impact on the standard of living of the upper class.
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Nov 10, 2020 14:04
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enki42 posted:If this is your starting premise, I would say there wasn't a single candidate for the Democratic primary, nor any outside possibility of there ever being one in 2020 that would satisfy this, including Bernie. For all the rhetoric, there wasn't a single policy that Sanders supported that would have a meaningful impact on the standard of living of the upper class. Yes, Bernie was the compromise with the Democrat party. You are not revelationing me with that notion.
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Nov 10, 2020 14:10
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3rdEyeDeuteranopia posted:For some of the pessimists, to include those who references the quote, it may be good to remember it was not saying he'd mostly keep things the way they are, but that rich lives wouldn't really change if they were taxed higher to support progressive programs like expanding health care, combating climate change and spending on infrastructure. He wasn't saying nothing would change for the poor and working class. Losing money is a substantial change to a rich person. Wealth messes with your head, and after a certain point, all you have left in your life is the pursuit of more money.
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Nov 10, 2020 14:12
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Dixon Chisholm posted:Losing money is a substantial change to a rich person. Wealth messes with your head, and after a certain point, all you have left in your life is the pursuit of more money. Biden was arguing that losing some money to taxes is ok - things would get worse down the road if income inequality wasn't somewhat addressed, and there wasn't tax flow to pay for programs to help the poor, then there would be greater problems down the line that would affect the rich more. I don't believe you can get better than that without an armed rebellion, not an election.
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Nov 10, 2020 14:17
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3rdEyeDeuteranopia posted:Biden was arguing that losing some money to taxes is ok - things would get worse down the road if income inequality wasn't somewhat addressed, and there wasn't tax flow to pay for programs to help the poor, then there would be greater problems down the line that would affect the rich more. What Biden argued and what the rich heard (and will use their boundless lobbying bribe money to fight to shape policy towards) are two entirely different things. To be fair, us filthy poors heard the dogwhistle, too, we just don't have billions of dollars to sink into lobbying. We just have protests where Biden will promise we'll get shot in the leg, maybe, instead of the back. Or the back of the leg, instead of the back of the chest, I guess.
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Nov 10, 2020 14:21
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how can you fix any of the real problems in america without impacting the wealthy? it’s already pareto efficient
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Nov 10, 2020 14:30
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Marx Was A Lib posted:What Biden argued and what the rich heard (and will use their boundless lobbying bribe money to fight to shape policy towards) are two entirely different things.
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Nov 10, 2020 14:34
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3rdEyeDeuteranopia posted:Many billionaires heavily supported Trump in order to try not to get taxed, and not have significant environmental regulations again. I believe the rich understood what Biden was saying and then the quote was just used at the poor to support Trump's populist messaging. Orr maybe there's a huge contagion of left leaning individuals that such messaging resonates with, and the Trump campaign, as the right often does, co-opts leftist rhetoric so that the political team of "Democrats and Republicans united against the poors" can have a "but that's a FOX NEWS!" to throw at left-leaning individuals criticizing the system.
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Nov 10, 2020 14:38
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A roadside picnic on the march to fascism/barbarism. Time to slow down things, maybe reconsider the journey. Time to talk a little bit, talk why we want to go there at all and have our heads smashed in by a boot. Maybe we could just go to the park instead and watch some geese do their thing? Definitely better than running at breakneck pace like the last four years. 5/10
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Nov 10, 2020 14:38
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10 cause thats the time i go to brunch after blacking out last night
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Nov 10, 2020 14:55
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Seriously tho about my nips I can't wear shirts anymore please send help
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Nov 10, 2020 15:13
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