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therattle posted:I don’t agree with this. Why can’t white people find racism offensive? And if they can (indeed, should), why can’t they argue that they don’t want to have to see it? Saying that white people can’t say that they don’t want to see racism implies that racism doesn’t affect them and it’s not their problem. It’s everyone’s problem. (Although obviously it affects people very differently). Its a privilege as a white person whether or not they can choose to see racism and white people deciding how much racism is in a politics thread lends itself towards white supremacy
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Nov 10, 2020 09:43
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Borrovan posted:Times is reporting that Sunak's defying Boris by promising cash bungs to Northern (Tory) constituencies. ? What's your opinion on the white anti apartheid movement in South Africa?
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Nov 10, 2020 09:46
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therattle posted:I don’t agree with this. Why can’t white people find racism offensive? And if they can (indeed, should), why can’t they argue that they don’t want to have to see it? Saying that white people can’t say that they don’t want to see racism implies that racism doesn’t affect them and it’s not their problem. It’s everyone’s problem. (Although obviously it affects people very differently). And that last point is the real problem. I don't get to decide how offended you should be by a given thing, and vice versa - that's a pretty simple point but one that often gets left out of these sort of discussions. I still don't understand how that particular tweet is the thing that sparked this particular round of Arguing On The Internet. It's not like someone posted a load of Sargon vids saying "Lol look at this dork, but make sure you watch the entire video and really, really think about what he's saying", or flatly stating there's a racial and religious aspect to child sexual abuse, things that have happened ITT with *far* less discussion.
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Nov 10, 2020 09:58
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therattle posted:I don’t agree with this. Why can’t white people find racism offensive? And if they can (indeed, should), why can’t they argue that they don’t want to have to see it? Saying that white people can’t say that they don’t want to see racism implies that racism doesn’t affect them and it’s not their problem. It’s everyone’s problem. (Although obviously it affects people very differently). e: Mugsbaloney posted:What's your opinion on the white anti apartheid movement in South Africa?
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Nov 10, 2020 10:07
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Maybe its better to amplify activism and voices of women, people of colour, people who have disabilities or LGBTQ+ than just repost tweets by rotten brained millionaires. By just repeating problematic stuff it normalises it so seeing poo poo like that it just confirms that people are racist rather than doing anything about it. I think each of us should question our role in those issues and shouldn't really consider them 'solved' or that you've done enough work. There's stuff I don't like reading about due to my own set of circumstances so I skip over it, but then those sorts of things are so prevalent in society I accept it will also happen in the thread
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Nov 10, 2020 10:13
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therattle posted:I don’t agree with this. Why can’t white people find racism offensive? And if they can (indeed, should), why can’t they argue that they don’t want to have to see it? Last night I watched one of his SNL skits where he very casually dropped the N bomb, and it made me viscerally uncomfortable. Does this mean he shouldn't say it? No, it means I have a ton of weird, unresolved poo poo I don't understand and probably need to think about. But more importantly I'm not black, and neither is Pete Davison, which was one of the points of the sketch - that white people overreact to surface racial issues, and that their overreaction can cause a bigger problem. E: content warning for racial stereotyping, albeit stereotyping used by someone from the minority being stereotyped - probably NSFW if overheard https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFLuGVOWlkc Hannah Gadsby put forward in Nannette that comedy (at least good comedy) is about the creation of tension, and then releasing it, and this sketch is like a masterclass in it. It uses a variety of racial tensions - the preamble, the staging, the ridiculousness, the pop culture references - to point out how white people not understanding the issues yet being in control of their resolution is a huge problem. I'm not saying that this is proof that we should all be saying the N word with impunity or anything like that, I'm just saying it uses comedy to frame how - to bring it back to your point - white people should not be leading (or really majorly involved in) this debate. Racism is obviously something that should outrage us, and we should consult / signal boost the relevant communities to help where we can; but we should definitely not be the ones making decisions about how to 'solve' it, or especially not framing the debate in a way that makes it about white people's discomfort. Bobby Deluxe fucked around with this message at 10:40 on Nov 10, 2020 |
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Nov 10, 2020 10:31
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https://twitter.com/Otto_English/status/1326063138240917506?s=19
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Nov 10, 2020 10:42
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Bobby Deluxe posted:Ehh... White Guilt is a complicated thing. I've been avoiding Dave Chapelle after finding a lot of the promo material for his Netflix special had him saying about people being too sensitive, you can't say anything etc. I figured he'd gone a bit Laurence Fox. To bring this around to more familiar territory, what do you do when a part of the minority group tells you 'actually this is bullshit and you need to stand with ME and not the other person who is saying the opposite thing!'? We've seen this with how the Jewish community took to the Corbyn AS stuff. I've been told, while I was the only Jew in the room, that we need to regain the trust of the Jewish community by doing X, despite me disagreeing with it. At some point, white people are gonna need to take a stand because minority communities are still divided on some of this stuff. Now, personally I'd say that you shouldn't argue with a minority telling you to do or not do something relating to how to treat them, but walk away from the discussion if they're giving you an n-word pass or something and still not do it. Sometimes it's a pretty public debate though, like the AS stuff, and I don't want white people shying away from doing the right thing because someone found a token right wing minority idiot that said 'actually this awful thing is ok don't worry about it'. It's not always an easy decision. Or to address Borovan's point - whose voices do you choose to amplify? There will always be a token minority arguing the opposite. Hell, sometimes (like the AS case) those people are actually most of the minority group! Miftan fucked around with this message at 10:48 on Nov 10, 2020 |
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Nov 10, 2020 10:43
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To be honest I'm more seeing people ignore minority voices and arguing against any action, that any sort of white guilt itt
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Nov 10, 2020 10:44
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Yeah I don't really think it's white guilt, it's just a request for a bit of common courtesy when posting obviously upsetting or triggering stuff (whatever that might be). I don't think anyone's calling for any race related discussion to be removed or hidden, but content warnings are pretty universally accepted as a good idea by non-dickheads.
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Nov 10, 2020 10:49
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As a disabled I actively want people to post ableist poo poo in here and elsewhere so we can see who all the hidden ableist cunts out there are. I'm strongly of the opinion that the more light that gets shone on these people and their attitudes the better, but I know I'm probably in the minority on that. I'd rather not spoiler because people don't read them, but I'm happy with whatever the mods decide.
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Nov 10, 2020 10:50
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No-one is saying don't post it just spoiler and CW it because the last thing any minority wants after a long day of being subjected to abuse is to open the thread and see it again.
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Nov 10, 2020 10:53
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Nilbop posted:It's not due to religious differences, it's due to creating an explicitly sectarian apartheid state and letting it spin along it's merry way for 50 years until it erupts into violence. lol no that's a separate but related thing. The religious hatred is many centuries old
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Nov 10, 2020 11:00
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Miftan posted:To bring this around to more familiar territory, what do you do when a part of the minority group tells you 'actually this is bullshit and you need to stand with ME and not the other person who is saying the opposite thing!'? We've seen this with how the Jewish community took to the Corbyn AS stuff. I've been told, while I was the only Jew in the room, that we need to regain the trust of the Jewish community by doing X, despite me disagreeing with it. At some point, white people are gonna need to take a stand because minority communities are still divided on some of this stuff. Then there's the circumstance where there's a very broad consensus except for like one total fuckwit, in which case it's important to continue insisting that anti-black racism does actually exist no matter how many times Sam Gyimah goes on the telly & insists otherwise
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Nov 10, 2020 11:03
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Bobby Deluxe posted:But more importantly I'm not black, and neither is Pete Davison, which was one of the points of the sketch - that white people overreact to surface racial issues, and that their overreaction can cause a bigger problem. Racist lord doing an old man internet racism and being bodied so hard that they come back with a mealy mouthed apology within the day and then get bodied for that and keep showing their rear end is funny in the way that vicious racism like the Theresa May racist vans or the Express whitening Javid so much that his own family wouldn't recognize him any more or police violence or nazi poo poo isn't, and there's a lot of people who are so absolutely exhausted of that that it would be worth content warning that, but still don't stop talking about it because not talking about it is worse. I'd also reference Khaya Dlanga's To hell with polite racism, where an obvious racist loving up repeatedly and landing on their rear end is just funny, whereas the type of 'reasonable concerns' polite person making people's lives worse really isn't.
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Nov 10, 2020 11:06
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who could have predicted doing what the political press wanted was a stupid loving move? https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1326098071856492544?s=20
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Nov 10, 2020 11:28
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kecske posted:at the risk of being drawn into an Internet Debate™ this feels like an 'out of sight, out of mind' position to me. justcola posted:Its a privilege as a white person whether or not they can choose to see racism and white people deciding how much racism is in a politics thread lends itself towards white supremacy I understand that but nobody is saying don't post it - just spoiler it/post a content warning. I don't think that posters here are unaware of pervasive racism. Borrovan posted:Most non-racist white people would prefer not to have to look at all the racism that exists, but ethnic minorities will still see racism whether white people are aware of it or not. You do realise how close your argument is to "thinking about racism hurts my white feelings so I should be allowed to bury my head in the sand", right? You & I are white, our role is to listen to, support, & (where appropriate) amplify minority voices, our personal feelings don't loving matter, and what I'm seeing here is a bunch of white people substituting minority opinions for their own, so kindly stop it. I think your argument is absolutely right in the real world. I am not sure it applies here. Will ethnic minorities see racism here whether white people are aware of it or not? As I write that, actually I realise the answer is yes, they probably will, as we (well, speaking for myself) will probably be exhibiting racist behaviour unconsciously. That said, I don't think it's burying one's head in the sand to not want to see more overt racism when there is so much of it around elsewhere. But I suppose your point is that it isn't for us to decide, and you're right. I was wrong. That does leave the question open as to how it gets decided. And whether a spoiler/content warning is actually deciding whether to see racism or not, or just to signal that some people who want to avoid it may find it distressing. (Speaking personally, I would rather see it but I can understand others who might not). Bobby Deluxe posted:
You're right. So how does it get resolved here?
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Nov 10, 2020 11:35
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^^^ As a white, mostly straight, physically able, mostly cisgender man, I have no loving idea; but I will gladly use my privelage to support whatever anyone needs to make things less poo poo. Miftan posted:Or to address Borovan's point - whose voices do you choose to amplify? There will always be a token minority arguing the opposite. Hell, sometimes (like the AS case) those people are actually most of the minority group! Like the Chapelle clip - it makes me uncomfortable, but I wouldn't want to see it taken down. If anything I shared it because it challenges me. To directly answer the question, ideally we should listen and learn, not just pay lip service; and in understanding the issue, we understand which voices are genuine and which aren't. Or ultimately just that there is a dialectic going on there that we don't have any authority to resolve. But if we really understood the problem fully, we would also understand that part of the problem is that the affected minority have to wait for the unaffected majority to decide for them in the first place, even if only to decide which of them gets to be heard. Again, not saying we shouldn't CW via spoiler tags if that's what people need, just that the unaffected people shouldn't be making decisions based on their feelings about the issue. Bobby Deluxe fucked around with this message at 11:45 on Nov 10, 2020 |
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Nov 10, 2020 11:40
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Again you are having people who are affected saying spoilering bigoted content is preferable trying to say that it is just abled white straight cis men saying it is erasing in and of itself.
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Nov 10, 2020 11:48
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Comrade Fakename posted:So, with this new vaccine, it seems like the big bottleneck is going to be manufacturing enough of it quickly enough. The companies making it say they can make 50m by the end of the year, which obviously won’t put much of a dent in 7 billion people. Is there any reason other than goddamnedtwisto posted:Other, easier-to-manufacture WhatEvil posted:https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5518734/ The whole point to mRNA vaccines is the ability to make them industrially, rather than making live virus vaccines which obviously have to be made biologically. For the Pfizer one they are looking at making 1.3 billion doses next year with 100m doses to be delivered this year. The AZ (live but engineered virus) and Moderna (mRNA) vaccines are also planned for >billion doses to be delivered in 2021. This is IMO actually not a bad use of industrial capacity and for most of the vaccines there are sensible price controls in place. https://www.fiercepharma.com/manufacturing/pfizer-designed-new-container-and-plans-to-tap-shipping-companies-for-covid-19
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Nov 10, 2020 11:52
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that the governments of the world can’t start manufacturing it themselves, even with paying a licensing fee to Pfizer or whatever?
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On importing bigotry here People need to ask why they're bringing this stuff to the thread. If it's just to say "some rando said something horrible, check it" well... Yes. There's a lot of random bigotry out there and we don't really need to get it imported into the thread just to tut at it. Even if it's by a celebrity, though i guess "so and so is bad now" is kind of an edge case for relevance but even then. If it's in service of a greater point about activism or structural bigotry or the minority experience that's worth talking about then I guess there's more leeway. I'd still be questioning "did the actual thing itself actually need to be brought here or could we just talk about it and leave the gross triggering stuff elsewhere". This is just my view on the bit that I can speak on, I'm not gonna say this applies to every form of it and people have their own views but for me this is what makes the thread a good place to feel included in rather than as just as lovely as the rest of the internet Isomermaid fucked around with this message at 11:55 on Nov 10, 2020 |
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Nov 10, 2020 11:52
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Rumda posted:Again you are having people who are affected saying spoilering bigoted content is preferable trying to say that it is just abled white straight cis men saying it is erasing in and of itself. Sorry, I am having trouble parsing this. Do you mean: Rumda posted:Again you are having people who are affected saying spoilering bigoted content is preferable. Trying to say that it is just abled white straight cis men saying it is erasing in and of itself. Bobby Deluxe posted:
This may be pedantic but I feel like it's important. It's not unaffected people. It's less-affected people. Isomermaid posted:On importing bigotry here Yeah, that's a good point.
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Nov 10, 2020 11:56
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As a trans person, post funny transphobic stuff and add a comment making fun of it and I'm happy Or spoiler tag it if you want as long as theres no Lottery of Babylon gimmick bullshit where they post a hateful screed without context
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Nov 10, 2020 12:05
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Isomermaid posted:People need to ask why they're bringing this stuff to the thread. If it's just to say "some rando said something horrible, check it" well... Yes. There's a lot of random bigotry out there and we don't really need to get it imported into the thread just to tut at it. Even if it's by a celebrity, though i guess "so and so is bad now" is kind of an edge case for relevance but even then.
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Nov 10, 2020 12:07
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https://twitter.com/RobDotHutton/status/1326114734874251264 I hate to post a story broken by Guido but this is loving funny. Number 10 couldn't be arsed making a new "congrats Biden" image, so they edited the "congrats Trump" one they'd already prepared so badly that fragments of the original text are still visible.
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Nov 10, 2020 12:13
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Congratulations President Tump.Bobby Deluxe posted:You're right, there's a big difference between 'Hey, this Labour politician who's on the NEC ballot said this thing we should be aware of' and 'Hey, Jim Davidson is screaming into the void again.' Unless it comes alongside the context of said Davidson getting slammed for it. Posting "lol this racist on the tube went on a rant and got cold cocked [twitter link]" is enough of a content warning that I should expect to hear a racist rant before said racist gets knocked out, but posting "Jeff924654812 responded to the video by saying the n-word" is more like ok and why do we need to know that, does that voice deserve amplifying? Significant people being ratio'd for being fuckwits I think shows its own consequence, especially in the context of our own racist aristocracy being forced to face the actual people.
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Nov 10, 2020 12:15
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jabby posted:https://twitter.com/RobDotHutton/status/1326114734874251264 These people are utterly staggeringly lazy. Would be quite relatable if they weren't running the country
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Nov 10, 2020 12:17
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as a brief aside,
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Nov 10, 2020 12:17
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When you've just eaten a full sack of meth eggs.
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Nov 10, 2020 12:18
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jabby posted:https://twitter.com/RobDotHutton/status/1326114734874251264 Somebody forgot to save the layered version. God drat it, it would have taken two minutes to make another with the name change, then have both ready to go. it does show how much they were expecting Trump to win....
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Nov 10, 2020 12:26
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Nice to know I have the same level of commitment to my photoshop memes as they do.
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Nov 10, 2020 12:28
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Can't wait for Q to jump on it as proof that Trump is still going to be the secret shadow president. No wait, I can wait, forever, but that will be a thing that happens.
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Nov 10, 2020 12:28
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I mean, it's been obvious for a long time, but they really are just so loving lazy aren't they. Just, at everything. Pure minimum effort.
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Nov 10, 2020 12:30
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It feels like it would actually be more work to edit an existing image and make sure everything's still centred etc. than just bang out a new one. It's only text on a blank colour backgroud ffs.
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Nov 10, 2020 12:32
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Bobby Deluxe posted:'Hey, Jim Davidson is screaming into the void again.' I keep getting him recommended to me on youtube and it concerns me for two reasons: 1) Surely nobody under 30 at the very youngest has ever seen him on tv in any capacity or gone to one of his seaside shows 2) Why does he seem to be throwing his entire youtube optimization budget on viewers of Fred Dibnah videos and gardening tutorials. Maybe it's his creased tomato face underneath 'The EU has done it Again!' that confuses the algorithm
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Nov 10, 2020 12:33
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Well I downloaded the original image and farted about with it in a couple of different packages*, and I can't see any trace of those Trump words anywhere. I think it's a hoax. *but not photoshop or coreldraw as I don't have those. Ed: ok I just opened it in Paint and changed black to pink and it IS THERE!!!!! Jaeluni Asjil fucked around with this message at 12:44 on Nov 10, 2020 |
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Nov 10, 2020 12:41
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Inexplicable Humblebrag posted:as a brief aside, Another night on the sauce. Tears for Keirs
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Nov 10, 2020 12:42
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^^^^ Kirs for Kiers.the sex ghost posted:I keep getting him recommended to me on youtube and it concerns me for two reasons: I looked him up to see how old he was (I thought he was dead, can't believe he's only 66!) and holy poo poo is that an amazing first citation point on wikipedia. 
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Nov 10, 2020 12:43
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Jaeluni Asjil posted:Well I downloaded the original image and farted about with it in a couple of different packages*, and I can't see any trace of those Trump words anywhere. I think it's a hoax. Paste it into Microsoft Paint. Choose the fill tool, and fill the background colour with white. It's not a hoax. e: f,b
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Nov 10, 2020 12:45
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jabby posted:Paste it into Microsoft Paint. Choose the fill tool, and fill the background colour with white. Yeah I just did that before I saw your message and you're right it is there.
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Nov 10, 2020 12:46
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