|
jabby posted:Wanting to move on from everything being about Corbyn. He built a movement, but if it continues to try and revolve around him personally it's going to die on it's arse. See, that's the problem. There's a whole lot of new young left-wing people who've got into politics as a result of Corbyn and they naturally tend to leave online footprints. Five, ten, twenty years from now when the right get complacent again, if any of the new crowd get even a whiff of a position of power, the media will comb through their history, find anything that suggests they once dared to support Corbyn and ruin them as a return to the bad old days of antisemitism in Labour. And yeah, I know, they're going to monster them with whatever dumb bullshit they can cook up regardless, but unlike most of the other stuff they've tried, the antisemitism poo poo has actually stuck and it's not going to go away by just trying to move on. It's why that quote somebody posted awhile back about Corbyn being iffy about legal action to combat this poo poo is so frustrating. It's like he doesn't realise this is bigger than him.
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2020 07:02
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 27, 2024 22:08 |
|
|
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/nov/11/two-tory-mps-take-gambling-jobs-before-review-of-betting-laws?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other Two Tory MPs take gambling jobs before review of betting laws. Not surprising in and of itself, two MPs getting paid tens of thousands of pounds for ten hours work a month for consulting for the companies they're supposed to be regulating. But absolutely NOT telling them about anything that might lead to a conflict of interest, of course. Can someone explain exactly why sitting MPs are even allowed to take any other work? It's not like they don't get paid enough.
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2020 08:55
|
|
|
The Perfect Element posted:https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/nov/11/two-tory-mps-take-gambling-jobs-before-review-of-betting-laws?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other Guess where Tom Watson ended up working for too.
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2020 09:00
|
|
|
The Perfect Element posted:Can someone explain exactly why sitting MPs are even allowed to take any other work? It's not like they don't get paid enough. Some of the ones I can think of are: - Brings in skills from the private sector - MP's having 'real jobs' stops them getting out of touch - It might be necessary to do so many hours to maintain competence in a specialty field or retain professional qualifications - Helps MPs with the transition back to the real world if they lose an election I share your disquiet though - I would ban it all, upping other support available if needed.
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2020 09:30
|
|
|
Vitamin P posted:I'm confident I can outargue a nazi Vitamin P posted:gently caress off entirely, who are you to say if speech is good or bad? Not sure you can actually out-argue a nazi if you melt down at the merest hint that speech should be restricted tbh
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2020 09:51
|
|
|
Prince John posted:- It might be necessary to do so many hours to maintain competence in a specialty field or retain professional qualifications
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2020 09:55
|
|
|
Surely they know the UK has a world class Universal Credit system to protect them if they suddenly lose their jobs?
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2020 10:01
|
|
|
stev posted:Surely they know the UK has a world class Universal Credit system to protect them if they suddenly lose their jobs? It is world class, just not at the protecting people part.
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2020 10:26
|
|
|
andyf posted:Hey I was gonna ask what the deal is about goatse man and his ring and why it gets so much attention, but it looks like there’s a bit of a free speech discussion raging right now so I’ll pop back in a week or two or something There was an interesting article on its origins a few years back: https://www.dailydot.com/unclick/goatse-revealed-kirk-johnson/ quote:The story of Goatse begins with a mustachioed, wiry man in his late forties who goes by the name “Kirk Johnson.” Johnson is a prominent practitioner of extreme penetration, which is the extreme penetration community’s term of art for sticking huge objects up your rear end. For years, Johnson has been rumored to be the Goatse man, based on their similar frame, skills, and matching moles on both Goatse’s and Johnson’s rear end.
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2020 10:29
|
|
|
justcola posted:Johnson is a prominent practitioner of extreme penetration, which is the extreme penetration community’s term of art for sticking huge objects up your rear end. 
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2020 10:33
|
|
|
knox_harrington posted:No idea what is wrong with your lungs but it is hugely more likely that you will get covid and that will gently caress them up more than some previously unseen reaction. I've left the house 7 times since March and am currently working from home which still seems the best way to not catch the virus. If I'm not going out, why chance it? I'm also not sure why you think I haven't been in conversation with my consultant on this. Their current advice is "sounds promising but needs more data" which is what I've been badly saying in here.
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2020 10:35
|
|
|
OwlFancier posted:I would rather talk about goatse than the previous conversation if I am perfectly honest. We have a few, and they do try to do this kind of thing, but FOR SOME REASON our media never chose to give them the kind of platform the american media chose to give AOC.
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2020 10:38
|
|
|
No country has ever had absolute free speech - the US has laws designed to restrict defamation, false advertisement and the promotion of imminent lawless action. Legislators believe it is self evident that a pharmaceutical company should not be able to advertise its dud drugs as instead being miracle cures, and that society would benefit from that restriction to free speech. The UK extends the reasoning to hate speech.
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2020 10:51
|
|
|
andyf posted:Hey I was gonna ask what the deal is about goatse man and his ring and why it gets so much attention, but it looks like there’s a bit of a free speech discussion raging right now so I’ll pop back in a week or two or something Back in the olden days of the internet, it was a popular pastime to try to trick people into following links to the goatse picture (basically a rather less polite version of rickrolling). So it became a Thing.
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2020 10:52
|
|
|
E: oops, wrong thread, sorry
Oh dear me fucked around with this message at 11:00 on Nov 11, 2020 |
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2020 10:54
|
|
|
Vitamin P posted:They aren't at odds at all, I'm confident I can outargue a nazi not because I'm charismatic or clever but because lefty positions are objectively stronger than nazi positions. As people we make our arguments, but as spaces and as communities and as societies we allow those arguments to happen without imposing speech restrictions because institutions aren't individuals, any speech restrictions will inevitably be used to the benefit of the already powerful. I take it you don't believe that there should be mods here with the power to probate, ban, or auto-ban then? jabby posted:Momentum has some skill at producing memes/viral videos. Corbyn has 2.4 million twitter followers, and decent Facebook presence. There are over 30 socialist campaign group MPs, at least some of whom are pretty young. Agree. Like it or not, fairly or unfairly, Corbyn is tainted in the eyes of much of the electorate. In any event I think that Corbyn et al (the old guard) are still stuck in a slightly outdated view of politics and policy - the paradigm is not changing. I would like to see some more innovative ideas.
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2020 11:04
|
|
|
Qwertycoatl posted:Back in the olden days of the internet, it was a popular pastime to try to trick people into following links to the goatse picture (basically a rather less polite version of rickrolling). So it became a Thing. It also went under the name "The Reciever" in the old YTMD days. (With there being a companion picture of a dude with a large dick being called "The Giver.") For a better breakdown of it (and many other similar topics), here is my favourite Internet Historian, Justin Whang. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-rNLqgBl1Y (While the video is SFW the topic might be considered NSFW.)
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2020 11:13
|
|
|
Nazis don't care about debates they care about a platform to share the ideas
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2020 11:18
|
|
|
Funny how this keeps happening https://twitter.com/ta_mills/status/1326447749538177024?s=19
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2020 11:24
|
|
|
blues thief posted:See, that's the problem. There's a whole lot of new young left-wing people who've got into politics as a result of Corbyn and they naturally tend to leave online footprints. Five, ten, twenty years from now when the right get complacent again, if any of the new crowd get even a whiff of a position of power, the media will comb through their history, find anything that suggests they once dared to support Corbyn and ruin them as a return to the bad old days of antisemitism in Labour. And yeah, I know, they're going to monster them with whatever dumb bullshit they can cook up regardless, but unlike most of the other stuff they've tried, the antisemitism poo poo has actually stuck and it's not going to go away by just trying to move on. It's why that quote somebody posted awhile back about Corbyn being iffy about legal action to combat this poo poo is so frustrating. It's like he doesn't realise this is bigger than him. If the FT is to be believed, Gen Z is doing its best to leave zero online presence and is rightly contemptuous of the millenial tendency to liveblog our lives. So maybe we have to wait and hope some of them aren’t ethno-nationalists. E: unrelated, is Scarfolk a goon thing? The pig Latin motto (Futue te et mori in igni) means I think FYAD (in a fire). Beefeater1980 fucked around with this message at 11:36 on Nov 11, 2020 |
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2020 11:32
|
|
|
Jose posted:Nazis don't care about debates they care about a platform to share the ideas 
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2020 11:39
|
|
|
Beefeater1980 posted:E: unrelated, is Scarfolk a goon thing? The pig Latin motto (Futue te et mori in igni) means I think FYAD (in a fire). Goons didn't invent "gently caress you and die" or "die in a fire", it just feels that way.
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2020 11:48
|
|
|
Beefeater1980 posted:If the FT is to be believed, Gen Z is doing its best to leave zero online presence and is rightly contemptuous of the millenial tendency to liveblog our lives. So maybe we have to wait and hope some of them aren’t ethno-nationalists. I hope so. My sister puts everything online and even wanted a facebook group to put our entire family tree and details in with our extended family from FB. I told her I wouldn't be doing it as it would be an identify thief's gift. (I back delete everything and back unlike etc everything every few weeks - yeah I know possibly insufficient but I do what I can - and don't say 'get off FB' because I have friends and relatives on the 4 corners of the earth and it's far and away the easiest way of staying in contact and it's also how entire arms of our family have managed to reconnect after fallings out a generation or two higher up cut us off from each other when it was just phone numbers and addresses to contact people - also staying in touch with former work colleagues and amazingly it's never the people you think it will be that you end up staying in contact with years after leaving a job and having long conversations by messenger with when you rarely spoke at work!) I also don't use my exact name on there but a version sufficient to satisfy FB ID Police. I have to request my relatives not to put photos of me online at family gatherings, if I post a photo with myself in it, that is my choice and they also get deleted within a few weeks. Also, much to my disgust, I found out not long ago that my niece - in her late 20s - was videoing family rows on her phone and posting the videos on youtube. Why is War Xmas at 11am on the 11th of the 11th? Why not 11:11 am on the 11th of the 11th? Nearly time... Poppies on lads, and make sure the leaf is saluting in the correct direction! Jaeluni Asjil fucked around with this message at 11:55 on Nov 11, 2020 |
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2020 11:51
|
|
|
Was going to go to the chemist on the high street but its almost eleven, can't deal with all that.
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2020 11:54
|
|
|
Jaeluni Asjil posted:I also don't use my exact name on there but a version sufficient to satisfy FB ID Police. Ugh. I had an ex that used to record arguments we had without my knowledge and play them back to me later, riled me up a bit. I wish there was an easy way to erase old online activity, I've been on the internet since I was 10 so there's a pretty big backlog of posts where I talked a lot of poo poo. I'm always worried about reverse-doxxing myself by someone in real life finding out some account I have on a website is linked to me. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGSKrC7dGcY
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2020 11:59
|
|
|
justcola posted:Ugh. I had an ex that used to record arguments we had without my knowledge and play them back to me later, riled me up a bit. Lol what the gently caress
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2020 12:00
|
|
|
Jaeluni Asjil posted:Why is War Xmas at 11am on the 11th of the 11th? Why not 11:11 am on the 11th of the 11th? Got to keep everything by the books. If anyone is doing too much cheering of the troops, here's a cw: suicide poem about the proper spirit of the day: 
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2020 12:03
|
|
|
Ravel posted:No country has ever had absolute free speech - the US has laws designed to restrict defamation, false advertisement and the promotion of imminent lawless action. Legislators believe it is self evident that a pharmaceutical company should not be able to advertise its dud drugs as instead being miracle cures, and that society would benefit from that restriction to free speech. The UK extends the reasoning to hate speech. Yeah, free speech is a mess of a concept that means different things to different people, and is heavily distorted by the gravitational pull of the US 1st amendment. I also think it's a misnomer - I was reading about dead Supreme Court Justice dude who had a very literal interpretation of the concept, like shouting fire in a crowded theatre is totally covered, but wearing an armband in protest is not because you're not literally speaking. If you call it "free expression of ideas" instead, then it makes more sense - criticizing the gov is in, artistic expression is in, silent protest is in, shouting fire in a crowded theatre is out (because lying dangerously isn't expressing an idea), incitement to kill is out, arguable even dangerous lies like anti-vaxx could be out. And the actual US version - as opposed to the "Facebook violated my rights by banning me" version - is heavily weighted towards being a reaction to the king throwing you in jail because he didn't like your anti-king pamphlet, which is fine as far as it goes, but it's stuck in the past (like most US-style "classical liberalism"). Ok great, so we've established that the government can't punish you for free expression of ideas, that's good and necessary, but doesn't cover all the other stuff that gets labelled a free-speech issue. So we have to ask, what are we trying to achieve wrt freedom/restriction of expression in a given (non-gov) venue? Silly example, if you have a tennis club committee meeting, is it bad to throw out the guy sitting in the back saying "boo tennis sucks, worst sport ever, let's disband the tennis club", even though he's just expressing an idea? No, because he's disruptive and it's ok for "tennis is good" to be a given at the tennis club. Now extend that to a political discussion such as this thread - is it ok for us to have a broadly left-wing discussion space, where boring people expressing the same 5 tired right-wing tropes are banned on sight? Or do we have to start from first principles every time someone demands a "debate" on whether trans people are ok? This feeds into Jedit's post about debating Nazis as well - even if they do abide by the rules of Debate Club, they will never accept that the debate is over and they lost. So we can accept that for them, declare the debate won (it's certainly taken place often enough), and therefore their ideas are bad and not acceptable here. Hence, "gently caress of Nazi" being the common refrain. E: that was a lot of rambling, mainly in support of OwlFancier's idea that there is a difference between good and bad things, you moron, etc. Bobstar fucked around with this message at 12:08 on Nov 11, 2020 |
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2020 12:04
|
|
|
justcola posted:Ugh. I had an ex that used to record arguments we had without my knowledge and play them back to me later, riled me up a bit. incredible power move quote:I wish there was an easy way to erase old online activity, I've been on the internet since I was 10 so there's a pretty big backlog of posts where I talked a lot of poo poo. I'm always worried about reverse-doxxing myself by someone in real life finding out some account I have on a website is linked to me. i could do without people finding my erotic invader zim fanfiction from when i was 14 but the rest of the stuff is just me wishing death on politicians and none of my irl friends or family would be surprised by that. it is my standard response when people ask me why i never went into politics though. i assume basically anyone my age who cares about politics has been posting disqualifying stuff
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2020 12:12
|
|
|
Bobstar posted:but it's stuck in the past (like most US-style "classical liberalism"). Bobstar posted:even if they do abide by the rules of Debate Club, they will never accept that the debate is over and they lost. So we can accept that for them, declare the debate won (it's certainly taken place often enough), and therefore their ideas are bad and not acceptable here. Hence, "gently caress of Nazi" being the common refrain. Which leads to lovely fash ideas winning, because "I think we should remove all the Jews" becomes a protected matter, whereas "I think we should remove the oval office who just suggested that" become uncivil and against the expression of ideas in a supposed rational marketplace that doesn't exist. It also ignores that "the debate" is a huge crowd conversation that has been going on since before I was born and will continue after I'm dead and big parts of it have come of reaction to really terrible things for humanity.
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2020 12:12
|
|
|
I’m not sure we can totally blame the media for our lack of an AOC. Mhairi Black got a fair bit of coverage when she was firebranding it up. To be honest I don’t think any of the SCG are actually newsworthy or say enough exciting stuff in an exciting enough way to really make a splash, biased media or no biased media. Who do you think they’re unfairly not giving the spotlight to here? Who do you think has earned it? To me they’re also still wallowing in the swamp of decorum and toeing the party line. You have a lot of years before an election at the moment, and that’s a long time to make a splash even if it gets you kicked out of Labour. I find it hugely disappointing that none of these ostensibly nice socialist types have the fire in their belly to do things like call someone out for lying in parliament and refusing to apologise. Just loving do it. Argue with the speaker. Denounce the rules. Point out every single day of the four years you get that you aren’t playing by the rules because the rules are designed to keep things the same. But they don’t. They ask Sensible Questions in the way the system wants them to. They don’t do stuff like Among Us sessions. They don’t give explosive interviews. And that is their failing. Basically what I’m saying is make me a Labour MP and I’ll give you the five most entertaining years of politics you’ve ever seen.
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2020 12:15
|
|
|
Beefeater1980 posted:If the FT is to be believed, Gen Z is doing its best to leave zero online presence and is rightly contemptuous of the millenial tendency to liveblog our lives. So maybe we have to wait and hope some of them aren’t ethno-nationalists. Is the FT unaware of Instagram and Tiktok? Just because Gen Z are using different platforms doesn't mean they aren't also liveblogging their lives.
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2020 12:23
|
|
|
British MPs supposedly have to deal with like a constituent's neighbours wall and village hall bake sales and tedious poo poo like that which probably competes with their time guy fawkesing the houses of parliament. Do congress people like AOC have to do all that?
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2020 12:23
|
|
|
Jaeluni Asjil posted:
I'm always genuinely puzzled by the tone in which this thread talks about Remembarance Sunday and Armistice Day, I'm of the genuine opinion that you really don't have to wear a poppy if you don't want to I think it's a personal choice and I do because of my profession and that my family lost 11 members in the first world war, I've also lost friend on tour and at home and I use Remembarance Sunday as a focal point even though I think about those people throughout the year. I get that people go way over the top in their support of it and it verges and goes over in to crass territory, I just thought a more enlightened thread wouldn't stoop to belittling the whole thing because of a few and would be more interested in the individuals using it for gain.
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2020 12:53
|
|
|
Here's the thing, in accepting and discussing vitamin p's bull poo poo about free speech you all have basically given into his argument that spoilers and cw/tw count as suppressing speech in the first place.
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2020 12:54
|
|
|
MonkeyLibFront posted:I'm always genuinely puzzled by the tone in which this thread talks about Remembarance Sunday and Armistice Day, I'm of the genuine opinion that you really don't have to wear a poppy if you don't want to I think it's a personal choice and I do because of my profession and that my family lost 11 members in the first world war, I've also lost friend on tour and at home and I use Remembarance Sunday as a focal point even though I think about those people throughout the year. It is a cynical but understandable (over)reaction to the appropriation of an event by right-wing virtue-signallers who have stripped the day of all meaning, and in fact perverted it into a celebration of war and death. I don't think anyone ITT stands against what the day was originally meant to represent, or against those who have a genuine familial attachment to it.
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2020 13:06
|
|
|
MonkeyLibFront posted:I'm always genuinely puzzled by the tone in which this thread talks about Remembarance Sunday and Armistice Day, I'm of the genuine opinion that you really don't have to wear a poppy if you don't want to I think it's a personal choice and I do because of my profession and that my family lost 11 members in the first world war, I've also lost friend on tour and at home and I use Remembarance Sunday as a focal point even though I think about those people throughout the year. It's always been massively politicised with any actual solemn reflection on the horrors of war being a by-product. Add in the common perception that everyone who fought in a "good" war is now dead (or very nearly), and the absolutely gross glorification of war that it has become recently, and what is there to support? I can quietly think about the suffering people endured and the sacrifices they've made without it being on the telly. I've never been to a remembrance service but I'm sure I've spent longer in consideration of the subject than most folks. Someone will be along to say this in better words but I personally believe it exists so people can do a visible thing and not have to think about what it means. It's like saying "sorry" and expecting everything to be okay so you don't have to consider what you're apologising for. Or something.
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2020 13:07
|
|
|
MonkeyLibFront posted:I get that people go way over the top in their support of it and it verges and goes over in to crass territory, I just thought a more enlightened thread wouldn't stoop to belittling the whole thing because of a few and would be more interested in the individuals using it for gain. WW1 scars were also rather visible in my family and I was brought up to do the 2 minutes silence in a thoroughly 'Never again' way. So *everything* about the way it's done now is extremely grating. They weren't heroes, they were us, slaughtered. I don't want Tory arseholes to remember them admiringly or as a fashion accessory. It's not a few doing this, and it's not 'crassness' I object to. It's the fact it's no longer possible to join in this jamboree without boosting the very attitudes that caused the slaughter in the first place.
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2020 13:08
|
|
|
MonkeyLibFront posted:I'm always genuinely puzzled by the tone in which this thread talks about Remembarance Sunday and Armistice Day, I'm of the genuine opinion that you really don't have to wear a poppy if you don't want to I think it's a personal choice and I do because of my profession and that my family lost 11 members in the first world war, I've also lost friend on tour and at home and I use Remembarance Sunday as a focal point even though I think about those people throughout the year. There's a fine line between warning of what hell earth can become and celebrating martialism, and the death of Harry Patch seems to be when the public commemorations just vaulted over it and became celebrations.
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2020 13:09
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 27, 2024 22:08 |
|
|
Guavanaut posted:I think the big problem is that (like most US-style "classical liberalism") it's stuck in the idea of the single rational individual, so you can express any idea, no matter how vile, as long as it doesn't target an individual. Yep, and I think that partially makes sense wrt the founding myth of throwing off the shackles of monarchic oppression - "I am not a royal subject, I am a free individual" - though the "rational" part is pure 100% unfiltered liberalism. But then it's stalled there, and everyone still celebrates their country's freedom from tyranny by blowing up a small part of it, without progressing to thinking maybe these freely expressed ideas are also powerful and potentially dangerous, as you say. (This is of course all considered within the mainstream framework of US political thought, I'm sure many excellent thinkers, especially those who aren't rich white men, have said much more insightful things than me about this) And I've said this before, but the marketplace idea fails on its own terms, because it assumes the "rational" majority will condemn the Nazi, not go "oh great we're saying those things about [minority] out loud again, let me just go and get my bat"
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2020 13:11
|
|