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napster of meat posted:Game is going beyond my expectations, getting all excited again. If this is the raw stuff, we are for one hell of a ride once complete. They could replace all enemies with campfires and I genuinely wouldn't be able to tell the difference.
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Nov 1, 2020 00:41
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hobocrunch posted:That's because outside of like Faerthale that is quite literally accurate. This game is basically completely fresh since these young blood joined the team in like mid 2019 or whenever it was. Most of the time spent until now has been on Faerthale. Wait you are worried that the final game might not have enough content instead of whether the final game exists?
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Nov 3, 2020 07:13
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cagliostr0 posted:Wait you are worried that the final game might not have enough content instead of whether the final game exists? Oh poo poo, you found me- It's me Bradley McQuaidsly (back from the dead) and I'm here to promote the game!
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Nov 3, 2020 11:05
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Wait, these guys are out of money? What the gently caress do those lunatics fans expect? The only companies that fund MMOs are out of the Far East, all they'd get is some free2play monstrosity.
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Nov 4, 2020 15:48
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDs6pEVqe_w Can Kyle save the game? He's literally the last competent person left at VR. Maybe Jimmy also, but we'll see I guess.
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Nov 7, 2020 09:11
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Reddit is already planning TLP servers. https://www.reddit.com/r/PantheonMMO/comments/jpy9gn/planning_for_the_future/ quote:Now that the development has passed through rocky phase and is breezing its way too completion, we have to think of the future. VR should create a mechanism to accommodate time locked progression servers. It’s a well known issues in MMORPGs that new players or returning players often feel the climb as insurmountable.
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Nov 10, 2020 16:16
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Ehud posted:Reddit is already planning TLP servers. The OP’s post history is quite the ride.
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Nov 10, 2020 16:32
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The weird thing is, I think that there is space out there for a successor to the EQ style MMO. McQuaid was absolutely NOT the person who should of been at the helm though. Everything he did post-EQ showed that he learned all the wrong lessons and was operating out of a place of ego. I kind of wish when McQuaid came to these forums once upon a time that we didn't immediately run him off because one of the things I really wanted to ask him was what he learned from Vanguard. This was always doomed to a comedy of disasters. Too bad though.
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Nov 10, 2020 16:40
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The MMO HMO > Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen: quote:breezing its way too completion
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Nov 10, 2020 17:16
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DeathSandwich posted:The weird thing is, I think that there is space out there for a successor to the EQ style MMO. McQuaid was absolutely NOT the person who should of been at the helm though. Everything he did post-EQ showed that he learned all the wrong lessons and was operating out of a place of ego. I kind of wish when McQuaid came to these forums once upon a time that we didn't immediately run him off because one of the things I really wanted to ask him was what he learned from Vanguard. it's amusing how this always happens and gamers always eat it up. McQuaid, Chris Roberts, Richard Garriott.. it's almost as if they need constraints and pressure from above to actually deliver. overwhelmingly the response to "What if Soandso Washed Up Rockstar Game Dev could make the game of his dreams with no limits?" is always "A wet fart"
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Nov 10, 2020 17:52
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Didn't Richard Garriott get an insane payday because NCSoft forged his signature on stock documents.
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Nov 10, 2020 19:08
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Groovelord Neato posted:Didn't Richard Garriott get an insane payday because NCSoft forged his signature on stock documents. They forged his resignation letter while he was in space, and yes, I believe he won that suit. The guy comes from money though to begin with, so he was always going to be able to live comfortably no matter what.
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Nov 10, 2020 19:21
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Ehud posted:Reddit is already planning TLP servers. Curious to know how this person thinks Pantheon has gone from running out of money and cant be finished, to breezing its way to completion in the span of a month.
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Nov 11, 2020 07:02
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I mean the fact that a 28 year old kid is basically schooling them on programming language is a pretty good sign that literally everyone at that company is out of touch and still living in 1999. It's one thing to make a game that pays homage to EQ1 but it's entirely another negligent thing to program it the exact same way, and then spend peoples investment on that as well. Furthermore, no one is going to loving apologize for it either because Brad is dead and it's most likely his fault.
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Nov 11, 2020 07:19
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hobocrunch posted:I mean the fact that a 28 year old kid is basically schooling them on programming language is a pretty good sign that literally everyone at that company is out of touch and still living in 1999. It's one thing to make a game that pays homage to EQ1 but it's entirely another negligent thing to program it the exact same way, and then spend peoples investment on that as well. Furthermore, no one is going to loving apologize for it either because Brad is dead and it's most likely his fault. I mean, at this point I wouldn't have been surprised if the codebase Brad was using for the game was literally the EQ1 code from 1998 that the team has been aggressively trying and failing to modernize to 2020 standards.
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Nov 11, 2020 14:44
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DeathSandwich posted:I mean, at this point I wouldn't have been surprised if the codebase Brad was using for the game was literally the EQ1 code from 1998 that the team has been aggressively trying and failing to modernize to 2020 standards. lmao I had this same thought at one point but thought it was too absurd to even bother accusing them of this. Now that someone else says it, this could very well be true.
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Nov 11, 2020 16:37
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I said come in! posted:lmao I had this same thought at one point but thought it was too absurd to even bother accusing them of this. Now that someone else says it, this could very well be true. they should've started with EQEmu and just built a new client on top. 
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Nov 11, 2020 18:09
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cmdrk posted:they should've started with EQEmu and just built a new client on top. This has been tried before. The problem is that the process always looks like this: 1. "Boy, a new EQ client would be great!" 2. "I'm going to make a new EQ client that talks to EQEmu!" 3. "Neat, I can load zones and connect kinda!" 4. "Oh man, making sure I adhere to this janky rear end old EQ protocol sure is tedious!" 5. "This is stupid. I have a client, why don't I just make my own server with a better protocol!" 6. "Wow, I'm making my own standalone MMO! Let me add some cool things of my own!" 7. "Wait, making an MMO is too hard and I'm dying of feature creep. I give up!"
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Nov 11, 2020 18:36
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Hell, id play a Shards of Dalaya TLP if they ever did that, I never played it when it was current but spent enough of my life in EQ to know I would love it. Way more likely than Pantheon releasing, let alone getting to the point of development that a TLP is needed.
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Nov 11, 2020 19:12
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Sachant posted:This has been tried before. The problem is that the process always looks like this:  onesixtwo posted:Hell, id play a Shards of Dalaya TLP if they ever did that, I never played it when it was current but spent enough of my life in EQ to know I would love it. Way more likely than Pantheon releasing, let alone getting to the point of development that a TLP is needed. yeah, SoD was cool and good. I played it many moons ago. I expect there's just not a lot of dev time available for such a thing 
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Nov 11, 2020 19:30
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Checking on the Pantheon reddit. Let's see what we've got today... https://www.reddit.com/r/PantheonMMO/comments/jwdwly/could_i_make_a_suggestion_the_world_of_pantheon/ quote:I was trying to figure out why World of Warcraft doesn't really draw me in like EverCrack did. In World of Warcraft I feel like I'm in a Socialist country where everything is strictly controlled and there's equity for everyone. No amount of effort is enough to advance you too far above your peers. There are limitations in place to keep everyone in close proximity to one another. Leveling means almost nothing, caps weekly points and gear, your effort has extreme diminishing returns. 
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Nov 18, 2020 18:21
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"Welfare epics"
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Nov 18, 2020 18:42
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Their newly-hired designer is a staunch advocate for realistic immersion walking gameplay.
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Nov 18, 2020 19:15
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The funniest part is that while WoW has had "welfare epics" around for ages now, one of the big things people hated about BFA was the grind you had to do for a character, be it main or alt, to be useful. Sure, you could go pick up some purples from mythics and LFR or whatever. You want to do anything even remotely end game? Go do the daily quests on the two hubs on the opposite ends of the world to farm two different currencies to do a scenario to get a different currency to upgrade your cape while you also do other set objectives to upgrade your Essences while also still trying to get gear of better ilvl like you always have that have CORRUPTIONS randomly on them. But wait, we added a Corruption vendor so you can just buy the one you want, by grinding more of those other things, but only certain ones are available certain weeks, oh and you need the right Azerite pieces because only very specific ones are good, but if you play multiple specs you need these pieces for each spec because the ones that are good aren't going to be good for all specs, but even if they are you have to go pay gold to respec each piece back in town before you change specs. In conclusion, WoW has a ton of horrible bullshit if all you want to do is have to toil in a loving mine to see your numbers go up by two.
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Nov 18, 2020 20:04
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Working hard by skipping work and pissing into mountain dew bottles in front of my computer for 18 hours for a chance at getting a 0.1% drop from a monster that spawns once every 36 hours while hoping it doesn't get stolen by another group to own the libs
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Nov 19, 2020 01:19
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Ehud posted:Checking on the Pantheon reddit. Let's see what we've got today... There are for sure things about WoW that make the world feel boring, unrewarding, and way too restrictive, but this person didn't mention any of those things.
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Nov 19, 2020 18:12
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Ehud posted:Checking on the Pantheon reddit. Let's see what we've got today... p1999 is full of these types of weirdos, determined to shoehorn their vapid political views into their imaginary game world of choice.
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Nov 19, 2020 18:27
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FrostyPox posted:Working hard by skipping work and pissing into mountain dew bottles in front of my computer for 18 hours for a chance at getting a 0.1% drop from a monster that spawns once every 36 hours while hoping it doesn't get stolen by another group to own the libs Why do this online in a game when you can do this in real life with the new graphics cards/consoles? 
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Nov 19, 2020 21:24
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Sachant posted:Their newly-hired designer is a staunch advocate for realistic immersion walking gameplay. Seems odd he's tagged as a consultant and not like a "crafting creative designer" or something. Especially since the bloke was posting all his thoughts on the forums anyhow. His example though for walking with a "trap detection mode" is quite possibly the worst example of a reason to implement walking in a game. Stealth is probably the only good one I can think of and that's mostly because it makes as much sense from a gameplay point of view as it does from a realism one (slower movement can be used as a balance for a powerful ability like a shield wall for example). This whole "wouldn't it be more realistic to have stamina" is so loving spergy though. Yeah and it'd also be more realistic to age and stay dead and no one gives a gently caress and we just want to have fun. Also /r/pantheonmmo might just be the worst reddit ever. I'm trying to think of a worse one that wasn't just a troll / joke. hobocrunch fucked around with this message at 02:38 on Nov 20, 2020 |
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Nov 20, 2020 00:36
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That Reddit post is of course extremely stupid peak Reddit wannabe-polisci nonsense, but I do think there's a valid point (that will likely never appear on a subreddit) to be made about the type of narrative MMOs can and should craft around the player versus that of single-player RPGs. And it does seem like most if not all MMO's post-WOW follow a single-player model of storytelling to their detriment. In a game like Baldur's Gate, it's perfectly reasonable to cast the player as the Chosen One hero here to save everyone, because the player character is the only one with agency in an otherwise static, pre-programmed world. But in an MMO with thousands of other people playing, it's completely absurd to have NPCs treat you like the great savior who's finally arrived to save the world by killing 12 goblin whelps. I think that's one big reason why SWTOR fell so flat: the single-player campaign depicts you as one of eight extraordinary people, each with their own highly personal backstories, then drops you into a world where everyone else playing the same class has the same "unique" heroic origin. The disconnect between the story the game tells you is "yours" and the actual game world is irreconcilable. Although there's no question it was partly just a side effect of a much less sophisticated world design, I'd argue that EverQuest's approach to player narrative was much better suited to the experience of an MMO. You make a character, you speak to an indifferent guildmaster who says, in effect, "Oh. Another one? Here's a shirt and a rusty weapon. Kill some vermin if you want. Try not to die." The result is much less ludonarrative dissonance as your character's story is that of struggling against a hostile, uncaring world and cooperating with others trying to do the same. It's clear that Pantheon is and has long (always?) been a trainwreck behind the scenes, but I do appreciate that its underlying mission is at least ostensibly about tapping into that EQ mode of gameplay-driven storytelling that nothing other than maybe the similarly ill-fated Vanguard has tried since. I can't imagine donating to the mess that is the Pantheon development process, but I would happily pay to try out a finished product that's even close to their stated objective - hell, even for something that amounts to a more complete version of Vanguard.
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Nov 20, 2020 01:29
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Hic Sunt Dracones posted:That Reddit post is of course extremely stupid peak Reddit wannabe-polisci nonsense, but I do think there's a valid point (that will likely never appear on a subreddit) to be made about the type of narrative MMOs can and should craft around the player versus that of single-player RPGs. And it does seem like most if not all MMO's post-WOW follow a single-player model of storytelling to their detriment. 
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Nov 20, 2020 07:20
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God I hate MMOs with "you are the chosen one!" storylines. Yes, tell me how I'm the sole savior of the world while I look around and see 20 other people here who are also ready to hand in the Crown of Gar'Fuckbat quest step and be told the exact same thing. This is also spurred by WoW's instanced start-to-finish-experience dungeons with cutscenes and voiced dialogue and the like. You never run a dungeon in classic EQ, you enter it and go to parts of it in some order depending on what you want to do. There's environmental storytelling, but no arc or acts. I much prefer that approach -- it feels like a world and not a very game-smelly RPG.
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Nov 20, 2020 08:12
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I have a friend who begrudgingly plays EQ Emu servers with me at times who really enjoyed WoW but just can not get into EQ. I think part of that for him is the complete lack of story unless you hunt around for lore. It was literally, "I don't know what I'm doing or why I'm doing it and I don't know what the gently caress to do next". And admittedly after being like... Well, yeah, you go to the wiki and figure out where to grind next and yeah you should shop in the baz and what how do you not know what a haste item is and oh God why are you using a fine steel warhammer as your primary weapon ... I see where he's coming from. I think people by and large voted with their wallets. WoW, at least at launch, held your hand every step of the way and it had great flow. It printed money and reached a player base that blew EQ out of the water. I feel like the Pantheon devs are stuck between wanting to cater to the hardcore EQ audience where you may get a few thousand players for a decade, or aping WoW like every other game in the last 15 years to get those launch day bennies before collapsing. Unfortunately I suspect the economics work out in favor of the latter. I completely agree that the faux chosen one stories are completely out of sync with the MMO parts, but I don't see this getting better. Maybe "live service" Anthems and Destinys of the world have repaired some of this brain damage? I seem to recall they at least evolve the story to, "you're A chosen one!"... Too bad they seem to be made entirely of the worst unsocial parts of MMOs.
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Nov 20, 2020 08:58
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Can't speak to Anthem but Destiny is definitely not that. They hammer home that you're the one special Guardian who does all the important stuff nobody else does. As for Pantheon having to choose, it's pretty much inevitable that they're going to choose the short term content binger crowd. It's the only way to actually make a return on investment at this rate. I don't expect them to stick to delivering an EQ-like experience at all. It's backpedaling all the way down from here.
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Nov 20, 2020 09:17
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cmdrk posted:I feel like the Pantheon devs are stuck between wanting to cater to the hardcore EQ audience where you may get a few thousand players for a decade, or aping WoW like every other game in the last 15 years to get those launch day bennies before collapsing. Unfortunately I suspect the economics work out in favor of the latter. And rightfully so but I can't see why they can't just have both. I feel like we need the Dark Souls of MMO's to come out. Where it's spot on with the "no gently caress you" but also is just a straight up quality game. (and no I'm not talking about Dark Souls esque mechanics, I'm talking about a sweet spot between say EQ and WoW Vanilla, whilst still being polished)
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Nov 20, 2020 09:43
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Sachant posted:Can't speak to Anthem but Destiny is definitely not that. They hammer home that you're the one special Guardian who does all the important stuff nobody else does. As for Pantheon having to choose, it's pretty much inevitable that they're going to choose the short term content binger crowd. It's the only way to actually make a return on investment at this rate. I don't expect them to stick to delivering an EQ-like experience at all. It's backpedaling all the way down from here. Haha you were looking forward to this
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Nov 20, 2020 12:17
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You caught me. Though I do actually want a good new EQ game.
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Nov 20, 2020 18:24
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Sachant posted:God I hate MMOs with "you are the chosen one!" storylines. Yes, tell me how I'm the sole savior of the world while I look around and see 20 other people here who are also ready to hand in the Crown of Gar'Fuckbat quest step and be told the exact same thing. This is how I feel as well.
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Nov 20, 2020 19:35
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There's definately still a market for a more grognardy EQ-like MMO with less handholding, less of the "You are winner!"-chosen one-stuff etc. Hell, a lot of people still play the original EQ in Project 1999 despite the godawful presentation and the worst UI made by man or beast, and it's not just nostalgia either (I didn't play EQ back in the day and had a ton of fun in P99). It's just that none of these developers seem to realize that this crowd is obviously VASTLY smaller than the theme park-MMO playerbase and aim for the stars. They need to make something more focused & smaller in scope with the expectation that IF it works (it won't with Pantheon obviously), they'll have thousands of players instead of millions & they have to keep costs low by aiming for a very specific niche. I haven't really played it beside a quick try with the free demo, but I hear the Project Gorgon guys seem to have the right idea.
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Nov 20, 2020 22:10
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cmdrk posted:I think people by and large voted with their wallets. WoW, at least at launch, held your hand every step of the way and it had great flow. It printed money and reached a player base that blew EQ out of the water. Yeah, I understand and agree that the economics may simply never work out for making the MMORPG I've always wanted to try, which is to say the game I imagined EverQuest might someday evolve into when I played too much of it as a teenager. I don't know whether there are enough people who want to play a difficult, unforgiving, cooperation-heavy MMO to support it entirely through a subscription model with no cash shop or other microtransaction garbage. A good MMO requires a huge, varied world and development resources to match, but no sane publisher would agree to fund such a project unless there's a realistic possibility of profit. I think the appeal of a developer sidestepping those publisher-imposed time and budget limitations is why I've been following Pantheon, which doesn't require much investment on my part since there's only about an hour's worth of new information once or twice a year. Ashes of Creation looks like it might turn out to be something interesting, and at least it doesn't seem to have the same money problems. hobocrunch posted:And rightfully so but I can't see why they can't just have both. I feel like we need the Dark Souls of MMO's to come out. Where it's spot on with the "no gently caress you" but also is just a straight up quality game. (and no I'm not talking about Dark Souls esque mechanics, I'm talking about a sweet spot between say EQ and WoW Vanilla, whilst still being polished) I like to think this is true, too. A game could embrace EQ's approach to world-building, harsh environments, and experiential storytelling while also including much more engaging gameplay (a number of vanilla EQ classes, like warrior and rogue, were barely interactive) and more guidance on where to go and what to do next.
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Nov 20, 2020 22:13
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