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I just retired from the military after 20 years, so I have no experience dealing this. I got cold called after a friend referred me to his old boss. The first conversation I had with the deputy and the training manager was pretty good, they seemed excited to bring me on, and gave a great description of the job - I would be getting training as a system administrator for a very industry-specific hardware and software system, and in return I would be training people with years of sysadmin experience on how, the client employs the system in order to help them with administration and troubleshooting. I would also be required to travel to 2 sites, twice a year each, to deliver training directly to the client as well. After I got off the phone I called two friends who did this exact job until 2018 (6 years with the company) and 2019 (10 years with the company). They endorsed it as a great place to work, having only left for job security (GS) in one case and way higher pay potential (airline pilot) in the other. They even volunteered their salaries during their time there. We have the exact same, relatively uncommon, skillset, and very similar backgrounds and qualifications. The deputy called me back the next day and walked me through their benefits package, then asked me what it would take for me to take the job (I wasn't keen on starting work with a kindergartner, home school, and zero childcare because my wife has to travel internationally for long stretches for her job, and yes she's still doing so). I gave him a number that was 10% higher than the highest I was told by my two friends (his salary after 10 years). He said I was "right on" and "wouldn't be disappointed" and once he got permission/funding from the client I would hear back from them. The big boss called me last night and was talking like the whole thing is a done deal, I just need to come in and meet his staff and sign some paperwork. Then he launched into HIS idea of what my role would be, and it would appear to also include managing at least 6 direct reports, their training travel, while also being the main POC for the client when scheduling training and support, and taking on another program from his deputy. He also said that I would be traveling not to the 2 main sites, but to 5 international client sites as well, and that each of them would be at least once a year. That sounds like a whole different class job, a very different time commitment, and at least 50% more pay than what I was talking about for the original job description. This could be a good job and it's something I'm very much interested in doing (either role honestly) but how do I get them to loving commit: What exactly is my role going to be? If it's expected to expand into areas a, b and c, when will I see commensurate increases in pay? I don't want to ruin this, but it seems like they really want me and I'm a little peeved about the perceived bait and switch.
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Oct 29, 2020 22:02
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It's always wise to be wary of the bait-and-switch, but there it sounds like there's a good chance you just turned out to be an even stronger candidate than your buddy led them to believe and they want you to do a bigger role. I would encourage you to not hesitate to figure out what number you'd be happy with for the expanded/higher role, add 10% and tell them "this is an awesome fit, I'm sure you agree $BIGBUCKS is a fair salary for this role, let's do this!" If they then clam up and stick to lowballing you for a much bigger role, then I would assume it's a bait-and-switch after all and tell them to gently caress off. But I would go forward assuming the best until you get hard evidence proving otherwise. I'm assuming you have a decent pension from the military, thus don't really need the job and your BATNA of remaining a retired stay-at-home dad for now is pretty strong, right?
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Oct 29, 2020 22:13
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It almost might be big boss not knowing the req or your contact not knowing big boss's big plans. So it might as undramatic as them getting on the same page.
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Oct 29, 2020 22:21
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Eric the Mauve posted:I'm assuming you have a decent pension from the military, thus don't really need the job and your BATNA of remaining a retired stay-at-home dad for now is pretty strong, right? Yeah if it doesn't work out I'm back to plan A. Xguard86 posted:It almost might be big boss not knowing the req or your contact not knowing big boss's big plans. The senior guy is...old. Like he has been there since 1995, and he talked during our call about moving back to Seattle where his wife is from (we're in NJ). My assumption the (also pretty old) deputy and training lead know what they're talking about because the advertisement they had me apply to was 100% what they initially told me (and they may have plagiarized my resume for part of it.) Geizkragen fucked around with this message at 23:18 on Oct 29, 2020 |
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Oct 29, 2020 23:14
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Geizkragen posted:
If you're okay with either role: Don't forget to negotiate travel compensation and per diem if you're going to be traveling so much. Getting the expense card out of the way early prevents itemization and payback hastle later. If the role's bigger than initially sold, make sure there's a clear list of job duties either way. My impression is they had someone else doing these travel-trainings retire and they moved on too; which is why why there's bigger shoes to fill. Also, always ask why the position's open.
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Oct 30, 2020 02:19
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pretty much every company has a standard travel policy so i do not agree that it's all that useful to try to negotiate on that
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Oct 30, 2020 11:49
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I'll ask more about it but because the domestic travel is for a govt contract they probably are held to a fairly narrow set of standards. I will however ask about the international travel.
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Oct 30, 2020 12:28
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don't get me wrong, you should ask about travel policy for sure, just don't expect to be able to negotiate it
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Oct 30, 2020 12:31
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If it's a corp card, all it means to you is paperwork once a month. Although you might poke around on the QoL side. Some places have byzantine and cheap rules that make already stressful travel truly terrible.
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Oct 30, 2020 17:17
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yeah for sure, ask about expense policy, restrictions, whether you get to keep points, etc. this probably comes after you get an offer in hand.
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Oct 30, 2020 19:09
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Had two initial interviews with companies this week. The first one didn't even bother asking me for expected salary, the second one did but didn't push back when I said I needed to know more about the position and the compensation package. First one was a recruiter who approached me, second was from a company I applied to myself.
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Oct 30, 2020 19:28
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i'm very happy to say that i have a reason to post in this thread instead of lurking. i got an offer letter! the offer letter is signed by the director of the program, and says to contact them if i have any questions about the letter or job, but was sent to me by an administrator. do i negotiate with the person who signed the letter or with the administrator who sent the letter? edit: ah, nevermind. i got over my anxiety about asking questions and directly asked this person if i should direct questions about the letter and the position to the administrator or to the program director. i've never negotiated salary before so this is very much uncharted territory for me. durrneez fucked around with this message at 14:46 on Nov 2, 2020 |
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Nov 2, 2020 05:29
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durrneez posted:i'm very happy to say that i have a reason to post in this thread instead of lurking. Good luck! What's your BATNA? One thing to be careful of in this stage is to not ask questions like "is this negotiable?" or "can you be flexible on salary" because that's an easy slap-down for them - "no" or more likely a professional "this is what we've budgeted" or something like that. Once you've gotten your qualitative questions answered you can go in on negotiating what you want based on the disparity between what they're offering and your own expectations. You want to frame this as "we're close, just XYZ and I'm on board" rather than "I won't come work for you unless you do XYZ"
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Nov 2, 2020 18:15
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thanks for the advice in phrasing! much appreciated. so many negotiating advice sites that i've seen either don't provide explicit phrasing or give examples with very passive rhetoric. my BATNA and my WATNA are the same--remaining unemployed. we're very lucky that we can afford to ride out the recession as a single income household. the position is pandemic-related and funded by CARES act money so it could vanish at any time. during the interview, the program director anticipated the position existing until spring. the offer letter says the position will exist for about 2-5 months. i'm definitely looking for something more long term and i view this as something to occupy my days while i apply to more jobs. so if i negotiations fall apart, it's not very dire, but i'd like to practice negotiating. the timeline is incredibly accelerated. they're looking to quickly fill many positions. i applied about two weeks ago, interviewed at the end of last week, and received an offer letter over the weekend.
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Nov 2, 2020 19:13
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Had two initial interviews with companies this week. The first one didn't even bother asking me for expected salary, the second one did but didn't push back when I said I needed to know more about the position and the compensation package. First one was a recruiter who approached me, second was from a company I applied to myself. Had my second interview with the recruiter for Company 1. We went over some basic technical questions about my background and the position, and then he did ask me about salary ballpark. I stalled (need to know more about the position) and counter-asked if he had a range, and he said it was against company policy to share that. So an impasse, but was still able to stand my ground about that.
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Nov 2, 2020 19:58
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Had my second interview with the recruiter for Company 1. We went over some basic technical questions about my background and the position, and then he did ask me about salary ballpark. I stalled (need to know more about the position) and counter-asked if he had a range, and he said it was against company policy to share that. So an impasse, but was still able to stand my ground about that. Double-posting because progress: had an extensive interview with each of the two companies, and am now scheduling/have scheduled the next step. The Company 1 recruiter hinted that I will need to decide which of their three regional offices (let's call them East Coast, Midwest and Pacific Northwest) I should be attached to, even though in practice it shouldn't matter until COVID has been beaten to the point where it would be advisable to work in person. Now he's said that by the next round of interviews I should make a decision as to which one of the offices I want to be attached to, suggesting he really wants me to be in the East Coast one, and that it might be the one most likely to lead to an offer. I asked for more information about the three, and he provided some, which I'm reviewing. I honestly think I prefer the Midwest one so far. What's my move here? I'm thinking "I do prefer the Midwest one, but for the right pay will be willing to go East Coast"? Company 2 won't require any relocation even after COVID.
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Nov 11, 2020 01:55
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Officially got offered a position by my would be boss, just need to negotiate salary and benefits now. Would be boss called me on their cell to give me some negotiation tips which I thought was nice. Basically said they wont negotiate PTO at my level, just pay, so beat them up on it. The salary range was huge, $100-150k. That said I would be considered entry level for this particular niche. I'd also be leaving a very secure government job for the private sector. Whats a reasonable number to aim for? I was thinking I'd start with $130 and accept $120. Am I being to ambitious there?
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Nov 12, 2020 01:08
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BaseballPCHiker posted:Officially got offered a position by my would be boss, just need to negotiate salary and benefits now.
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Nov 12, 2020 01:09
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Agreed. If he has a clue he's tipping you off that you should ask for $150K and that they will probably counter with a $100K lowball. You'll probably be able to get $130-135K out of them if you play it right.
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Nov 12, 2020 01:49
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BaseballPCHiker posted:That said I would be considered entry level for this particular niche. Did you future boss say this or is this your own belief. That would make a big difference to me in whether I'd aim for the top of the range or not. Also, have you done a minimal amount of salary research (Glassdoor, Levels.fyi, etc.) might help you be able to anchor yourself with a little more confidence.
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Nov 12, 2020 04:22
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Followed the rules and never said a number (for an internal move to a different department). Made it through a pretty grueling interview cycle. Was told they wanted to offer me the job, but didn’t. Then, finally they did, and the offer was a ~35% pay cut. I’m in a high upside plan now (50/50 base/incentive), and they offered a modest bump in base with 10% upside. Net net was pretty bad... Somebody done hosed up. I’m still negotiating, but it looks like I need to find a different BATNA and I’m super glad I didn’t tell my current boss about this.
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Nov 12, 2020 06:15
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I'm in a position where I may quit my job or be fired and I'm not sure what to do. I do engineering and work for a tiny company, and it's a huge mix of stuff. I do the vast majority of my work from a computer but because the owners are morons they want the engineers to do field work too (which involves visiting customer sites in other states or countries with a bag of tools and telling them they didn't plug their control panel in). I had been working from home for the duration of the pandemic but they had us come into the office to meet some customers. We had a big safety meeting about how they would be OSHA compliant (which means masks in my state) before coming in. However, I see the customer walking around the office without masks. I talked to my boss and his dad and told them I wouldn't be able to trust them with my safety again, because they had essentially lied about a safety issue. I basically said that if they wanted me to continue working there in any capacity that I not do field work and not go back into the office until the pandemic is over, since I couldn't trust that they wouldn't lie to me again about safety. They haven't answered the phone since. Is there any reason that I should quit rather than waiting to see if they fire me or accept my proposal? And how hosed am I?
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Nov 12, 2020 06:35
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Diggus Bickus posted:Is there any reason that I should quit rather than waiting to see if they fire me or accept my proposal? And how hosed am I? How much of it is in writing? And if you quit, no unemployment.(assuming usa) Its sort of advantageous to get fired, assuming you have any sort of documentation.
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Nov 12, 2020 06:43
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Definitely don't quit. Worse case is you get fired and collect unemployment, as that's an easy case. Best case is they follow the guidelines. In-between is you still get paid while you apply to other jobs.
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Nov 12, 2020 06:51
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Ultimate Mango posted:Followed the rules and never said a number (for an internal move to a different department). A 35% cut is pretty amazing, but as a general rule you’ll never get a meaningful raise moving within the same company. They know what you make, and whatever mechanisms are in place to keep your salary down are in place companywide. You have to jump to a new employer. Never don’t negotiate, but it seems pretty obvious based on their lowball that they have no interest in giving you any kind of compensation increase. Probably a waste of time. Also: you really think your current boss doesn’t know?
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Nov 12, 2020 14:13
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the base / upside stuff in this leads me to believe that you are moving from a sales role or at least a directly sales supportive role to something that is very much not sales oriented, is that true?
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Nov 12, 2020 14:36
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Parallelwoody posted:Definitely don't quit. Worse case is you get fired and collect unemployment, as that's an easy case. Best case is they follow the guidelines. In-between is you still get paid while you apply to other jobs. I am pretty sure if he refuses to do his job and is fired they will fight his unemployment and win. So I would find a new job asap.
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Nov 12, 2020 15:21
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spwrozek posted:I am pretty sure if he refuses to do his job and is fired they will fight his unemployment and win. So I would find a new job asap. Being ordered to work in conditions so obviously hazardous to his health might create enough legal uncertainty that they'd choose not to fight it. e: OK, a more careful reread reveals that this is a small family owned business ("my boss and his dad") and probably a good bet the owners are Trumpers. Yeah they'll fight it, probably claiming OP abandoned his job. Whether they'll win depends how Blue or Red the state is, probably. But if OP is calling them and they're refusing to talk to him, yet haven't informed him in writing that he's terminated for refusing to perform assigned duties, that's not going to look good for them in unemployment court if they're going to argue job abandonment. Eric the Mauve fucked around with this message at 15:40 on Nov 12, 2020 |
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Nov 12, 2020 15:35
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He said they weren't following osha guidelines, he has it documented when they weren't following those guidelines, and has it in writing that he's asking them to follow those guidelines to which they haven't responded. Sure they might be petty and fight it but the employer isn't winning that.
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Nov 12, 2020 15:56
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Well I'm not sure he's clear on what is and isn't OSHA (he says "which means masks in my state" but OSHA is federal and state-level restrictions aren't OSHA) and the post really isn't clear on what is and isn't in writing and what is and isn't a state mandate. "The employee refused to perform his normal job duties and stopped showing up for work" is a very solid basis for denying unemployment comp even in the extremely worker-friendly state I live in. If his argument in unemployment court is "nuh-uh, they're lying" he'd better have written proof. All that said, obviously he should still file, from the employer's perspective fighting unemployment claims was a pain in the rear end before COVID blurred all the lines, they may choose not to bother fighting it.
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Nov 12, 2020 16:07
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I don't have anything in writing. Owners didn't write anything down about how they would wear masks either. If they fight an unemployment claim I guess they'd probably win. I'm asking for a lot from them but I don't know if I can reasonably ask for less since they are willing to lie in order to put me in unsafe conditions. Any field work I do for customers relies on them to make sure I have the training and equipment I need to be safe and that the customer operates in a safe manner, which I'm not comfortable trusting them to do anymore.
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Nov 12, 2020 16:29
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Well, not that it's helpful now, but this would be a good opportunity to say "always get agreements in writing." Even if it's over the phone, send a follow up email to the effect of "Here's what we discussed and agreed to on our phone call previously." For your specific situation, it's going to be helpful to have the dates documented and any communication between you and them written down. You're also going to need a thorough explanation of how you were put in an unsafe position by both your employer and also whatever sites they are sending you to. It's one thing to show up to a site, say this is unsafe, here's why, I won't be performing work until this is resolved, and an entirely different thing to just not show up because you don't think it's safe because you don't trust your boss.
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Nov 12, 2020 17:19
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yeah unfortunately the latter is kind of a personal problem not an employment law problem
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Nov 12, 2020 17:30
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I FINALLY got someone to name a range. I'm essentially one (big) step from an offer. He asked for my expectations, I countered with "well, you know what your budget is, so if you give me your range that'll help me figure out if this is a good match", so he gave me a range that starts above what I'm making now, I said that I think I have enough experience and background to fit with the top of that (which is above what I would have accepted to leave my job earlier this year). Now if I could only get a range from the other company...
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Nov 12, 2020 17:49
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Parallelwoody posted:It's one thing to show up to a site, say this is unsafe, here's why, I won't be performing work until this is resolved, and an entirely different thing to just not show up because you don't think it's safe because you don't trust your boss. Yeah. Unfortunately that's where I'm at. At this point should I just resign?
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Nov 12, 2020 18:03
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No, I'd still file unemployment if you get fired and show up for the hearing if it's contested (they do it over the phone in my state, even pre Covid). I would point out that you were told they would follow guidelines/mask mandates/whatever is actually applicable, you showed up in person and they were not taking the required safety precautions, you later contacted them about following the safety precautions they are required to/agreed to and you were terminated shortly after. If they fire you they have to show cause in order to avoid unemployment. I don't know what the situation is about you not showing up or refusing to show up at a work site, but if you're given the option to then go and do what I said in the post above. If they don't give you the option and terminate you then you should be in the clear as far as collecting unemployment. It does mostly hinge on whether they can show you actually refused to show up for an assignment and they claim job abandonment. I'd be happy to take this to pm for more specific info regarding your situation but the overarching advice I think is relevant for everyone is to document everything you can as soon as you can. My anecdotal experience is that larger corporations will leave things vague but positive and hope you fill in the details yourself, while smaller ones will just straight up lie about poo poo and challenge you to call them on it. Parallelwoody fucked around with this message at 18:28 on Nov 12, 2020 |
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Nov 12, 2020 18:23
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I just want to clarify that he might get unemployment if he is fired. You never know. My Partner had two employees decline to come back after Covid shutdown, had it in writing, and she still lost her unemployment dispute with the state. Even though they both effectively quit. He definitely will not get it if he quits. So do not quit.
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Nov 12, 2020 19:43
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Another vote for don't quit. Just to hopefully add some value here, if you get fired and this winds up in an unemployment hearing, you'll want to have your ducks in a row. I highly suspect that just like traffic and small claims court, showing up and indicating you're a reasonable person trying to act professional is 90% of the battle. I would document every single interaction you've had with the owners regarding this. Go back through your email and calendar and pull every bit of data that supports your case. Print out anything you can and then write a high level summary you can quickly read through if it comes down to a hearing: quote:10/29 10am - Owners held a company wide meeting regarding safety, specifically COVID safety and indicated all OSHA and state regulations would be followed, which including the mandatory wearing of masks while onsite. In retrospect, giving them an ultimatum between you working all remote or leaving was probably a bad move. Not sure you can salvage that and remain truthful, but if you can put the focus on them flouting state safety regulations it will certainly make their lives harder. Obviously this assumes your state does indeed have a mandatory mask order, which it sounds like it does.
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Nov 12, 2020 20:25
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Update on my negotiation. Turns out I was completely wrong on range. It was actually $100-125, not up to $150K like I had thought. Ultimately we agreed to $115K, plus they are going to give me a $5k signing bonus. So all in all I am very pleased with the results.
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Nov 13, 2020 17:56
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nice! congratulations!!
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Nov 13, 2020 18:03
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