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theironjef posted:All I'm saying is fame isn't a viable metric for if it's okay to do things, and that the rhetoric of "it's okay to do stuff if you're famous" isn't new. I apologize for the over-escalation. no no i'm really glad I can talk about how mercer tore my precious cat familiar out of my hands, balled her up, spat on her, and tossed her onto the ground before grinding her into the dirt with his heel ALL BECAUSE HE DIDN'T LIKE MY HOUSE RULES
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Nov 11, 2020 18:34
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Arivia posted:no no i'm really glad I can talk about how mercer tore my precious cat familiar out of my hands, balled her up, spat on her, and tossed her onto the ground before grinding her into the dirt with his heel I assume I'm being burned here but I honestly can't tell how or what this is.
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Nov 11, 2020 18:37
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Lol at that guy turning off comments You know it's a bad take when they do that
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Nov 11, 2020 18:40
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gradenko_2000 posted:Lol at that guy turning off comments tbf I'd turn off comments on even "good" and true takes online. Much more likely to get assholes replying about SJW or devils advocating being annoying.
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Nov 11, 2020 18:44
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theironjef posted:I assume I'm being burned here but I honestly can't tell how or what this is. nah I just wanted to run with the idea of Matt Mercer grabbing a character sheet by the pussy and it being a horrible violation it's a joke and you just gave me the setup, is all
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Nov 11, 2020 18:48
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gradenko_2000 posted:Lol at that guy turning off comments this is a bad take theironjef posted:All I'm saying is fame isn't a viable metric for if it's okay to do things, and that the rhetoric of "it's okay to do stuff if you're famous" isn't new. I apologize for the over-escalation. I agree with this. I don't think it's up to the famous person, it's up to the marginalized creator inviting them. I also don't think this is a situation where the community reacted "wrong" (which is why I posted the second thread) but it does seem like we spend a lot of time watching marginalized communities eat their own. admanb fucked around with this message at 18:56 on Nov 11, 2020 |
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Nov 11, 2020 18:49
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gradenko_2000 posted:Lol at that guy turning off comments Not wanting to be dogpiled by people doesn’t make your opinion wrong
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Nov 11, 2020 18:51
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The other tricky thing about live streamers playing POC characters in RPGs is how it applies to GMs since they end up having to "play" pretty much every NPC in the game. The one other thing I worry about with the recent push to not cast white voice actors in POC roles is that the consuming public are going to miss the nuance and start expecting POC voice actors to ONLY be cast in POC roles, which is kind of a problem if we don't also see a push for more POC characters in media, particularly as main characters. Voice acting is kind of a unique field in that it's a field where non-white actors can actually be hired to voice white characters, which leads to a lot more job opportunities in our very white media landscape, and I don't want to see an initiative that is supposed to be about improving the prospects of POC actors turn around and accidentally harm their livelihoods.
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Nov 11, 2020 20:08
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what's wild is mercer is also coming under fire for this exact thing (playing an asian role) in video games, concurrent with this. i originally had to double check what thread i was in.
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Nov 11, 2020 20:10
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Mister Olympus posted:what's wild is mercer is also coming under fire for this exact thing (playing an asian role) in video games, concurrent with this. i originally had to double check what thread i was in. Did "double checking" not include "actually reading"?
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Nov 11, 2020 20:12
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Toshimo posted:Did "double checking" not include "actually reading"? ??? when SA jumped me to "most recent post" it was already pretty deep in this conversation and i immediately got hit with the twitter links, so my brain farted for a second. why the hostility e: if this IS about the yakuza thing why is it acting as if he's doing this in a liveplay also? yeah ok there was a lot upthread that i just didn't catch, probably because i opened the thread, closed it without reading, then reopened it today lol
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Nov 11, 2020 20:19
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Mister Olympus posted:??? Because it's both, they are pretty tied together.
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Nov 11, 2020 20:21
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KingKalamari posted:The other tricky thing about live streamers playing POC characters in RPGs is how it applies to GMs since they end up having to "play" pretty much every NPC in the game. I think it's generally understood that any argument based on "no player should play a character outside their race/gender/sexuality" is a non-starter, but it's also understood that recording and releasing your game as content gives you a higher level of responsibility to both treat those characters with respect and pay it back to the communities you're, in a way, appropriating for your content. The weird thing here of course is that Matt Mercer wasn't really going to profit off of this project -- he was going to bring profit to a Black creator while appropriating content from the Asian community.
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Nov 11, 2020 20:47
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I don't know about the Yakuza stuff. Like, does that mean only Asian-Americans should be involved with anime dubs now? That doesn't seem correct.
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Nov 12, 2020 07:32
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I don't think all characters in anime are intended to be Asians.
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Nov 12, 2020 07:39
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ZeroCount posted:I don't know about the Yakuza stuff. Like, does that mean only Asian-Americans should be involved with anime dubs now? That doesn't seem correct. A shift toward that would be good, the end state I'd prefer is to cast appropriately as a default unless you think a particular VO will do a better job for the specific role.
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Nov 12, 2020 07:43
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ZeroCount posted:I don't know about the Yakuza stuff. Like, does that mean only Asian-Americans should be involved with anime dubs now? That doesn't seem correct. I would also be okay with Asian-Canadians, perhaps even Asians from Australia.
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Nov 12, 2020 08:01
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If you feel like showing Modiphius that you support what they're trying to do with Conan, while also supporting charity, there's a hell of a deal on the PDFs for the Conan game as a Humble Bundle right now.
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Nov 12, 2020 08:07
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Not only is it kind of fraught to start demanding that certain jobs only be filled by people of certain ethnicities, it’s really weird when a it’s demanded by a group of largely white people.
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Nov 12, 2020 08:12
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I guess as an Asian person, I apparently have the ability and privilege to say that whitey can absolutely get hosed. I extend this privilege of sharing this sentiment to any other people in this thread, regardless of race. Hire more Asian and BIPOC voice actors, for fucks sake Sungwon Cho is right there. GrandpaPants fucked around with this message at 10:20 on Nov 12, 2020 |
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Nov 12, 2020 10:18
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Casting Mercer might be different if English speaking countries didn't have enormous populations of Asian people to draw voice actors from. It would also be different if one in every twenty white characters was voiced by an Asian American, but they're not. I understand it might be hard to get your eggs lined up the Nigerian dub of Yakuza or getting a cast specifically composed of Ainu for the Golden Kamuy English dub. For the US though I think 6% of the population is more than enough to draw from for whatever Yakuza main cast you got. Not like you'd cast Taft with a skinny guy in a fat suit. edit: I am now reminded of my immense annoyance with movies having pretty Hollywood types wear "ugly" makeup instead of just getting people who don't look like Hollywood actors. Terrible Opinions fucked around with this message at 11:00 on Nov 12, 2020 |
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Nov 12, 2020 10:57
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GrandpaPants posted:Hire more Asian and BIPOC voice actors, for fucks sake Sungwon Cho is right there. SungWon Cho’s in Yakuza 7. https://m.imdb.com/title/tt11121754/fullcredits/cast?ref_=m_ttfc_2 Yakuza 7’s dub has its share of white VAs but its not exactly devoid of Asian actors thetoughestbean fucked around with this message at 12:00 on Nov 12, 2020 |
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Nov 12, 2020 11:58
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Leperflesh posted:If you feel like showing Modiphius that you support what they're trying to do with Conan, while also supporting charity, there's a hell of a deal on the PDFs for the Conan game as a Humble Bundle right now. Oooh. Say, are the rules any good? I might go for this.
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Nov 12, 2020 13:13
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Leperflesh posted:If you feel like showing Modiphius that you support what they're trying to do with Conan, while also supporting charity, there's a hell of a deal on the PDFs for the Conan game as a Humble Bundle right now. This bundle alone having almost 10x as many purchases as there are total comments on that KS update is immensely funny to me
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Nov 12, 2020 15:06
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paradoxGentleman posted:Oooh. Say, are the rules any good? I might go for this. Conan the IP doesn't do anything for me, but the 2d20 implementation is this sweet spot in the 2d20 spectrum that I really like. It's a really solid system. There's a good 2d20 thread as well. Personally, 2d20 has gone from being "We wish were Genesys, but we've just got regular polyhedrals" to "We wish we were playing Cortex, but this is the system we own", and while I find it weird and frustrating, most people seem to really appreciate its breadth. CitizenKeen fucked around with this message at 16:21 on Nov 12, 2020 |
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Nov 12, 2020 16:18
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CitizenKeen posted:Conan the IP doesn't do anything for me, but the 2d20 implementation is this sweet spot in the 2d20 spectrum that I really like. It's a really solid system. I can't speak to Conan, but Modiphius' application of 2d20 for Star Trek is bang on stellar.
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Nov 12, 2020 17:16
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Eastmabl posted:I can't speak to Conan, but Modiphius' application of 2d20 for Star Trek is bang on stellar. Seconding this, even though starship combat is a slog (to be fair, "one Starfleet medium cruiser, two Klingon birds of prey, and one Vor'cha vs. one already heavily-damaged Borg cube" is gonna be a slog no matter what.) I'm also going to throw in my support for John Carter of Mars' version of the ruleset, which is a more compact version of Star Trek's (which was already a more compact version of Conan's.)
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Nov 12, 2020 17:45
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My personal white guy take on the Mercer thing is that playing a character in an RPG, even while streaming, is a lot different than voice or regular acting. A big part of RPGs is playing characters that differ from yourself. There's probably a cutoff where when a streamed RPG is popular enough you need to start worrying about who you cast, but I don't get the feeling the thing Mercer was doing was all that popular. Basically he should've stayed on the streamed game and should've refused Yakuza
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Nov 12, 2020 17:50
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Star Trek Adventures is amazing, but I don't think it has anything to do with the 2d20 system. The choices they've made that make it so good (and it's really one of the best adaptations of an IP into an RPG ever) could be made with Fate, Cortex, or any other generic narrative system.
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Nov 12, 2020 20:20
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I'm pretty sure I'm alone here but STA fell completely flat for me. It's just too much. Like, why do we need a play-by-play combat system for goddamn Star Trek? Which episode is that meant to simulate?
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Nov 12, 2020 20:46
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When you spend time and effort crafting a rudimentary lathe you don't want the combat to be over in one roll.
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Nov 12, 2020 20:57
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paradoxGentleman posted:Oooh. Say, are the rules any good? I might go for this. Here's the 2d20 thread. I like the Conan rules having read them two or three times: but, I've yet to actually play so my opinion should be somewhat discounted. I think if you're not sure, it'd be worth looking for some actual play videos or podcasts or whatnot. I don't think the Conan game is really "for" people who have never read or cared about Robert E Howard's Conan stories. It's built to support that particular kind of flavor, and expends a fair amount of effort (particularly the supplements) on setting detail. You could absolutely adapt this Conan ruleset for a generic low-fantasy swords and horror type setting if you wanted to, but if that's what you want to do, you're probably better off starting with a different system. The 2d20 system lands kinda midway between full-blown storygames, and high-crunch dungeon crawlers, in terms of mechanics. The various implementations for Mutant Chronicles, Star Trek, John Carter of Mars, etc. aren't straight clones of the mechanics although there are some commonalities. The quick starts are free: https://www.modiphius.net/collections/rpg-quickstarts and are a decent place to look if you're not sure.
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Nov 12, 2020 21:06
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Terrible Opinions posted:Casting Mercer might be different if English speaking countries didn't have enormous populations of Asian people to draw voice actors from. It would also be different if one in every twenty white characters was voiced by an Asian American, but they're not. I understand it might be hard to get your eggs lined up the Nigerian dub of Yakuza or getting a cast specifically composed of Ainu for the Golden Kamuy English dub. For the US though I think 6% of the population is more than enough to draw from for whatever Yakuza main cast you got. I mean, they cast Gary Oldman in a fat suit as Churchill, they absolutely would do exactly that.
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Nov 12, 2020 21:25
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thespaceinvader posted:I mean, they cast Gary Oldman in a fat suit as Churchill, they absolutely would do exactly that. They also cast Gary Oldman as a little person in Tiptoes.
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Nov 12, 2020 21:30
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thespaceinvader posted:I mean, they cast Gary Oldman in a fat suit as Churchill, they absolutely would do exactly that.
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Nov 12, 2020 22:32
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thespaceinvader posted:I mean, they cast Gary Oldman in a fat suit as Churchill, they absolutely would do exactly that. That poo poo is Oscar bait, of course they would.
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Nov 13, 2020 00:41
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thetoughestbean posted:Not only is it kind of fraught to start demanding that certain jobs only be filled by people of certain ethnicities, it’s really weird when a it’s demanded by a group of largely white people. I feel like it's important to note, at least on twitter so far as I've seen, that the sentiment surrounding the Mercer thing is hardly just coming from a group of "largely white people," this isn't really one of those cases where white people have adopted a cause that PoC are going "hey wait what are you doing," a lot of Asian and other PoC creators have weighed in on the matter as well.
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Nov 13, 2020 02:47
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I don't have an opinion on this yet, but it's at least making me ask myself some question about the morals and representation that are interesting. Like, I, personally am super uncomfortable playing say a trans-woman, not cause I'm a-scurred about my masculine identity but because I'm worried I'll do something gross by accident since it's not part of my lived experience and I don't want to step on their spaces and trivialize their identities in my silly game about being elves. (Other people, rock the hell on if you feel comfortable ; totally possible I'm being overly cautious.) On the other hand, I don't think it's right that if I had a cool game set in mythic China that anyone of any ethnicity shouldn't feel comfortable participating, with the caveat that it should be handled well and not like Oriental Adventures or some poo poo. And this is just me thinking about home-games. When it's applied to streaming my head just hurts.
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Nov 13, 2020 03:14
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Xiahou Dun posted:On the other hand, I don't think it's right that if I had a cool game set in mythic China that anyone of any ethnicity shouldn't feel comfortable participating, with the caveat that it should be handled well and not like Oriental Adventures or some poo poo. This is, I think, the big crux of the matter that a lot of people have been discussing. There's a difference, a fairly significant one, between doing something in a home game and doing something in a wildly popular youtube series that for all intents and purposes is basically a TV show. Whether or not Critical Role used to be some gee-shucks bunch of friends just having fun and incidentally recording themselves, they occupy a much different place in the elfgameosphere now than some random person playing D&D around the kitchen table. What that difference should therefore entail for something like "is it cool for Matt Mercer to do this" is a question that doesn't have one specific easy answer but it's caught up in a lot of other related issues like the uphill struggle it's been to get greater representation out there in the D&D podcast part of the community, a lot of bandages being ripped off of D&D's traditionally lovely handling of race and orientalism, etc. And a lot of creators have said "yeah of course we're not just making games where you have to be this Not White to play them, but we'd appreciate it if you approached it with some respect" but that's also sort of an orthogonal issue to the broader question of what happens when this intersects with celebrity as opposed to personal games that aren't being broadcast to hundreds of thousands of viewers.
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Nov 13, 2020 03:26
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Ethics change when it's paid work with a limited number of opportunities for people to get in it and be seen by millions, I think. It's a simple way to put it, but it works out.
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Nov 13, 2020 03:42
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