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its simple really: if you talk to people and organize around concrete demands that point towards a stronger and more organized working class, then you will win people to your politics. if you try to appeal to them on some abstract theoretical or ideology level you will alienate them because your politics arent actually materialist, theyre ideological. like maos combat liberalism is the perfect example, its ironically one of the most ideologically liberal texts ive ever read
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Nov 14, 2020 21:28
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jarofpiss posted:yeah i was mostly joking about IT, never worked in it and don't know anything about it. it people are in my experience one of two varieties: hard left, or dumbfuck libertarian to a fault.
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Nov 14, 2020 21:44
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im in favor of communism and whoever gets there first wins see you at the communism brunch party
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Nov 14, 2020 21:53
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gradenko_2000 posted:yeah being a poo poo programmer and getting shuffled off to support probably helped steer me away from being a dumbfuck libertarian I'm a front end developer and one of my coworkers is a cuban expat who claims that his brother is part of the intelligence apparatus, but tried to convince me that Cuba is bad because you can only own one restaurant (despite his free compsci education).
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Nov 14, 2020 22:28
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Hope this is an OK thread to ask this in! My daughter and I want to read some theory together this winter. She's a precocious 13-yo and I'm a high-school-diploma-toting PMC recovering liberal without any real political education, plus attention/focus issues, so we're probably at about the same level in terms of the material we're up for. She read Jacobin's "ABC's of Socialism" and understood but I think didn't really internalize it; the writing might have been a little on the intricate and "clever" side. I'm reading through it now myself. The Manifest of the Communist Party looks relatively approachable, so we'll probably start there, and she expressed interest in Capitalist Realism when we read through a list of leftist books. What else should be on our radar? She'd like to be able to effectively explain socialism and communism to her friends, and have a better understanding of how capitalism harms people concretely, and how socialism/communism addresses those issues. I guess I roughly want the same things, as I think about it. I saw HomEx's reading list in the OP, but it looks to be targeted at people with a more sophisticated political education than we're starting from. Any suggestions for things we should consider? Would love to put some leftist writing under the tree this Christmas, especially if I can get her centrist extended family to put it there.
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Nov 14, 2020 23:00
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*drops off three tomes of hegel* okay first you gonna want to read this to understand marx’s explanations of why they’re wrong...
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Nov 14, 2020 23:03
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buy her an account
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Nov 14, 2020 23:05
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Raskolnikov38 posted:*drops off three tomes of hegel*
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Nov 14, 2020 23:05
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bordiga for babies
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Nov 14, 2020 23:06
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i hope someone has some good answers for you tho. i honestly started with more humanist carl sagan type stuff when i was younger and became interested in history, which led into lenin specifically - but that's not really good introductory stuff. i dont have a conception of a path to being a communist that isnt an organic self-discovery type thing, because i really didn't have any mentors irl. it's really cool that you are engaging with her interest
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Nov 14, 2020 23:07
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THS posted:buy her an account do not do this, also sad to see ghislane has a SA account as well as a reddit one
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Nov 14, 2020 23:08
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Trash Ops posted:bordiga for babies Wish I'd seen this bib when she was younger! 
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Nov 14, 2020 23:09
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apropos to nothing posted:i actually have mad love for the read settlers brand of maoists though. there was a read settlers red guards group that hosted a "maoism vs trotskyism" meeting years ago locally because they were pissed at how better organized and more members we had compared to them and they and they hated us for it but accidently recruited people from that meeting to us because they went and after listening to them poo poo on us were like wow those people actually sound good what is wrong with settlers? I read the book in a reading group with people that would not be able to differentiate between things like trotskyism and maoism, but they thought settlers was eye opening.
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Nov 14, 2020 23:10
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T-man posted:do not do this, also sad to see ghislane has a SA account as well as a reddit one what?
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Nov 14, 2020 23:15
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Subjunctive posted:Hope this is an OK thread to ask this in! I thought Socialism: Utopian and Scientific was better than the Manifesto and a pretty good introduction to the concept generally. and I’ve heard good things about Workers’ Tales but idk how much explicit theory it gets into, I think it’s more parables
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Nov 14, 2020 23:21
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the manifesto and chapter 1 of capital are probably good starting places, followed by asking this thread for explainers of things in those
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Nov 14, 2020 23:21
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A book that helped set the foundation for me early on was Noam Chomsky’s Understanding Power, I first read it back when the Iraq war popular discourse was infuriating me and an old lefty gave me a copy and I couldn’t put it down. Its conversational, partly due to format, which are transcribed Q&A sessions, and partly due to Chomsky's dislike of the idea of an 'intellectual' class apart from common folks. I think Marx’s Capital Illustrated is an accessible first step into something that can be pretty dense, though it’s somewhat dated. I think it’s a good primer before digging into Capital. The Conquest of Bread by Kropotkin is a classic as well.
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Nov 14, 2020 23:23
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LittleBlackCloud posted:what? https://filmdaily.co/news/ghislaine-maxwell-reddit/
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Nov 14, 2020 23:25
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Subjunctive posted:Hope this is an OK thread to ask this in! i'd imagine as a 13 year old it's going to be difficult to truly internalize the alienation of wage labor given she hasn't done it yet. i think the manifesto is good but there is some stuff in there that will seem weird. a lot of people's journey to radicalization is lived experience and it's gonna be hard to develop any real convictions about this stuff just by reading the lore. here are some other links that (i haven't read all of these but they come recommended): https://www.thriftbooks.com/w/a-peoples-history-of-the-united-states-1492-to-present-by-howard-zinn/247354/#edition=9369929&idiq=12537187 a people's history of the united states by howard zinn - standard classic https://www.thriftbooks.com/w/the-s...edition=5973412 the s word by john nichols - my partner recommended this but we're dsa members so it will probably be haram in this thread https://www.thriftbooks.com/w/there-is-power-in-a-union-the-epic-story-of-labor-in-america_philip-dray/401632/#edition=6179089&idiq=5624513 there is power in a union by philip dray - i enjoyed this one a lot as well https://books.google.com/books?id=f...20baker&f=false ella baker and the black freedom movement by barbara ransby - another recommendation from my partner really do some american labor history reading, it's way more engaging than theory and i think having a basic historical understanding of the labor struggle is more useful early on than reading anything more than the most basic theory. there's always time to read lenin later but a 13 year old radical revolutionary is gonna have a hard time being anything more than insufferable to be around. after you join dsa you should both go full harrington https://books.google.com/books/about/Socialism.html?id=zo91Keuw-cEC&printsec=frontcover&source=kp_read_button#v=onepage&q&f=false jarofpiss fucked around with this message at 23:39 on Nov 14, 2020 |
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Nov 14, 2020 23:33
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yeah even though he’s pretty libtastic, those little Chomsky books like The Common Good or What Uncle Sam Really Wants do a good job of clearly and concisely laying out the evils and contradictions of capitalism and imperialism with concrete examples. I’d also recommend watching that documentary The Corporation as a good intro, as well as reading Nickel and Dimed for more examples of how awful capitalism is for the working class
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Nov 14, 2020 23:35
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I like recommending "mutual aid" by kropotkin. It is mostly a counterargument against the most common actually theoretical argument against socialism which is that humans are inherently greedy and conflict driven. It is also vague enough to be in favour of all imaginable leftist tendencies so your kid can put that decision off.
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Nov 14, 2020 23:43
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Subjunctive posted:Hope this is an OK thread to ask this in! this is an article that is a bit outdated and from the UK and part of a larger book but the section i think does a good job of outlining what socialism is and how it can work. i only plug it because its something i read with people looking to join SA (the organization not the forum) a lot and our readings are meant to be accessible to anyone cause we have members who are high schoolers, or people without high school educations or ESL. https://www.socialistalternative.org/socialism-in-the-21st-century/how-could-socialism-work/ for books just a all over the place list that helped me realize i was a socialist were killing hope, the democrats: a critical history, a brief history of neoliberalism. those may not be the best entry point for anyone and theyre all on specific issues that arent socialism directly but they led me down the path im on. theres also teamster rebellion and labors giant step as good books on the history of the american labor movement. for just what is marxism engel's socialism: utopian and scientific is probably the gold standard if you dont mind reading engels. Kindest Forums User posted:what is wrong with settlers? I read the book in a reading group with people that would not be able to differentiate between things like trotskyism and maoism, but they thought settlers was eye opening. have problems with some of the politics of the book but moreso than even whats in the book my hatred for it comes from the number of online leftist cranks who treat it like their bible. as someone who it sounds like is not one of those, what were your thoughts about it and what conclusions did it help you draw, just curious?
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Nov 14, 2020 23:46
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agreed that A Brief History of Neoliberalism is good but it’s pretty dry and boring
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Nov 14, 2020 23:49
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Peanut President posted:trotskyism is a dead ideology, like strasserism or democracy
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Nov 14, 2020 23:58
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THS posted:i dont have a conception of a path to being a communist that isnt an organic self-discovery type thing, because i really didn't have any mentors irl. jarofpiss posted:i'd imagine as a 13 year old it's going to be difficult to truly internalize the alienation of wage labor given she hasn't done it yet. i think the manifesto is good but there is some stuff in there that will seem weird. a lot of people's journey to radicalization is lived experience and it's gonna be hard to develop any real convictions about this stuff just by reading the lore. she's pretty convicted about inequality in wealth and power, which was what prompted me to start talking to her about socialism about a year ago, and wrestles a bit with her own privilege. we're in Canada, where there are some easy examples of socialized programs to address basic human needs, and we had a good conversation about the differences in COVID stimulus/wage replacement policy between Canada and the US my goal isn't to make her into a communist, though I'd certainly be proud if she became one, but to help facilitate a better understanding of a more humane and sustainable politics now that she's expressed interest jarofpiss posted:a 13 year old radical revolutionary is gonna have a hard time being anything more than insufferable to be around. yes, well, quite. otoh I was a pretty insufferable means-testing lib at 13, so you sort of just have to roll the dice. her friends have basically not been exposed to socialist thought at all, even to the small degree that my kid has, and she'd like to feel more confident discussing it with them. I suspect she also wants to be able to argue with her teachers in high school about economics and politics, but we'll see thanks all for the recommendations. I gave her a few to add to her xmas list, and I'll probably get her a copy of People's History myself
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Nov 15, 2020 00:28
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Subjunctive posted:she's pretty convicted about inequality in wealth and power, which was what prompted me to start talking to her about socialism about a year ago, and wrestles a bit with her own privilege. we're in Canada, where there are some easy examples of socialized programs to address basic human needs, and we had a good conversation about the differences in COVID stimulus/wage replacement policy between Canada and the US 13 might be too old but there’s a people’s history for kids version I’ve seen used in middle school
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Nov 15, 2020 00:32
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children start as natural commies and get that beaten out of them by Ideology and high school
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Nov 15, 2020 01:00
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Subjunctive posted:she's pretty convicted about inequality in wealth and power, which was what prompted me to start talking to her about socialism about a year ago, and wrestles a bit with her own privilege. we're in Canada, where there are some easy examples of socialized programs to address basic human needs, and we had a good conversation about the differences in COVID stimulus/wage replacement policy between Canada and the US this is great to hear. i think if you raise a thoughtful kid that has a passion for justice the politics will fall into place. the manifesto does a good job covering a lot of the basic marxist concepts which is probably plenty of framework to approach teachers and friends with. having concrete examples of biographical and historical struggles closer to home will also go a long way to help ground the politics into something real as opposed to abstract thought or old books about grain. i wish i knew some canada specific labor history books to recommend. a big part of the socialist project is solidarity with each other through shared struggle. it's hard to speak about this authoritatively when you only have abstract concepts to work with (especially as a young person). working on building a knowledge base of more local movements and struggles will probably go a longer way than marx talking about what he thinks about the hegelian historical timeline. i was an insufferable 13 year old anarchist and a full libertarian by 21 so i mean that with no disrespect. the important thing is to not become a 30+ year old anarchist.
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Nov 15, 2020 01:04
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apropos to nothing posted:its simple really: if you talk to people and organize around concrete demands that point towards a stronger and more organized working class, then you will win people to your politics. if you try to appeal to them on some abstract theoretical or ideology level you will alienate them because your politics arent actually materialist, theyre ideological. like maos combat liberalism is the perfect example, its ironically one of the most ideologically liberal texts ive ever read tbf the whole thing is really about internal party discipline; he never said it's bad for random workers to think like that, just communist party members
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Nov 15, 2020 01:51
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Subjunctive posted:Hope this is an OK thread to ask this in! For a 13 year old, I would say The Principles of Communism and then onto the Manifesto as a project. When I talk to adults I tell them not to worry if they don't understand everything the first time they read it. https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/11/prin-com.htm If she gets really into it, Duncan's Revolutions podcast has an episode describing the situation going into 1848. That could be something to listen to if she wants to know more about the historical circumstance they were written during. https://thehistoryofrome.typepad.com/revolutions_podcast/2017/07/701-the-volcano.html I know as a kid it was around that age I was first time introduced to idea of primary sources. It felt sort of like a puzzle to figure them out and how they were relevant. I think presenting some of the foundational Marxist texts in a similar way would most engaging for someone that age.
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Nov 15, 2020 02:08
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https://twitter.com/AbrahamLopezNJ/status/1327758566900592640?s=19 is that dude holding a revcom poster lol
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Nov 15, 2020 04:38
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yeah that's the kind of powers you can unlock when you get into BA
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Nov 15, 2020 04:48
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chairman bob is leading the bidenist revolution against the fascist trump/pence regime
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Nov 15, 2020 05:58
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https://twitter.com/RefuseFascism/status/1327592438098223104?s=20 https://twitter.com/RefuseFascism/status/1327614334621593602?s=20 idk, seems like RCP would disapprove of that guy being violent
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Nov 15, 2020 06:08
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Sheng-Ji Yang posted:chairman bob is leading the bidenist revolution against the fascist trump/pence regime
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Nov 15, 2020 06:19
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also once Q gets hacked, it will start spitting out instructions to the Q cucks klan to surrender their firearms to the new people's provisional government. currently trying to line up jobs for my cspam friends escorting chinese peacekeepers around america and to yell at people in their boarded-up houses to please surrender, everything will be fine, these men are your friends, and to trust the plan because wwg1wga
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Nov 15, 2020 06:39
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Atrocious Joe posted:idk, seems like RCP would disapprove of that guy being violent theres a longer video where the dude who gets wiped out by the revcom guy was assaulting people all over.
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Nov 15, 2020 06:43
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:wwg1wga what does this mean (I'm not going to google it.)
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Nov 15, 2020 07:05
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T-man posted:children start as natural commies and get that beaten out of them by Ideology and high school T-man once again with the objectively correct posts
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Nov 15, 2020 08:02
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Sheng-Ji Yang posted:theres a longer video where the dude who gets wiped out by the revcom guy was assaulting people all over.
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Nov 15, 2020 08:10
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