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Oh good more kabuki theater. Poland is set to receive 65 billion euros from the recovery package. Spain and Italy need it like they need air to breathe. This thing will get through in December, the rule of law provisions are going to be watered down to symbolic fines or a sternly written letter. Feel free to quote and own me when it all goes to poo poo and Hungary invades Italy or something equally stupid happens.
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Nov 16, 2020 18:12
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true.spoon posted:So a relief package was not only not blocked by "the frugal four" but the reason it was blocked was because of provisions that were not put in out of economic selfishness, and this is your reaction? What in the world? That's a tough one, but ultimately a bailout seems more important than putting pressure on them. Then again it's possible they'll vote for it again without that condition? I think that's what Hungary and Poland are playing at. As for the frugal four, back when the condition was announced there were some rumblings that it was particularly demanded by the Dutch IIRC, potentially as a way to sink the whole thing without coming out against it. I wouldn't be surprised if they refused to support it without that condition.
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Nov 16, 2020 18:12
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Yeah basically what private speech said. I'm sorry that I have a tendency to be unclear. It's just that I believe in the dream of a united europe, as in truly united as I see it as a stepping stone to a more unified world where everyone treats each other as equal and takes care of each other(I know I'm probably delusional) poo poo like this makes me anxious and then dumb word salad posts happen. I'm sorry again true.spoon.
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Nov 16, 2020 18:29
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^ No worries I totally get you now  Just didn't know about the background.Private Speech posted:As for the frugal four, back when the condition was announced there were some rumblings that it was particularly demanded by the Dutch IIRC, potentially as a way to sink the whole thing without coming out against it. I wouldn't be surprised if they refused to support it without that condition. true.spoon fucked around with this message at 18:34 on Nov 16, 2020 |
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Nov 16, 2020 18:30
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The weird thing is that the Netherlands is absolutely not getting through this fine. Our number of cases is insane and yet our government is still obsessed with debt...
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Nov 16, 2020 18:39
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An insane mind posted:It's just that I believe in the dream of a united europe Username/post combo.
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Nov 16, 2020 18:41
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An insane mind posted:The weird thing is that the Netherlands is absolutely not getting through this fine. Our number of cases is insane and yet our government is still obsessed with debt... As long as number goes up the country can afford to kill a bunch of olds and possibly gently caress itself with increased long term healthcare cost years down the line.
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Nov 16, 2020 19:00
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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An insane mind posted:Yeah basically what private speech said. I'm sorry that I have a tendency to be unclear. It's just that I believe in the dream of a united europe, as in truly united as I see it as a stepping stone to a more unified world where everyone treats each other as equal and takes care of each other(I know I'm probably delusional) Yeah I'm with you there. I see the European project as an evolving process towards a more united continent with an extremely long-term goal. Helping each other out is core to the EU. The fact that Poland and Hungary have illustrated problems with states acting as malicious actors with very different goals to the shared consensus of the majority of us should be taken as a learning exercise. I agree that a mechanism should be created to bypass these concerns in areas of emergency or immediate need, such as the plague. To get out ahead of a problem before it happens, obviously when I say Poland and Hungary I'm referring to their governments rather than their people. However their presence as states with lingering authoritarian and hyper-"religious" issue does present a problem that we should learn from, rather than try to ignore.
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Nov 17, 2020 07:33
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There's genuine concern about the descend into authoritarianism and erosion of democracy in some EU countries and certainly, it impacts other policy areas. Bulgaria Set to Shut Down Balkan Neighbor’s Path to Joining EU Bloomberg posted:Bulgaria is poised to block the official start of European Union accession talks with North Macedonia, hindering the former Yugoslav country’s efforts to open the long-delayed negotiations by year-end. Also, the veto is ludicrous and becomes ever more unworkable the more members are admitted. The entire block is held hostage by various national quirks and insane regional politics originating in obscure history.
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Nov 17, 2020 07:36
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Honj Steak posted:What’s Janez Janša up to now? https://necenzurirano.si/clanek/aktualno/janseva-vlada-v-tujino-posilja-podatke-o-manjsem-stevilu-smrti-825945 tl;dr: officially we're about to hit italy levels of fuckup, but JJ's govt is sending lower numbers to people abroad, primarily EU, lmfao
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Nov 17, 2020 09:21
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Antifa Poltergeist posted:Feel free to quote and own me when it all goes to poo poo and Hungary invades Italy or something equally stupid happens. Feel free to be more specific and  yourself. Owling Howl posted:Also, the veto is ludicrous and becomes ever more unworkable the more members are admitted. The entire block is held hostage by various national quirks and insane regional politics originating in obscure history. I'm finding it especially hard to digest that this petty nationalist dispute may help Bulgarian PM restore credibility, instead of ruining it.
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Nov 17, 2020 10:07
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quote:I'm finding it especially hard to digest that this petty nationalist dispute may help Bulgarian PM restore credibility, instead of ruining it. The latter werent a super big block 5 years ago, nowadays who knows.
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Nov 17, 2020 10:15
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Liberum Veto, but for all of Europe. What could possibly go wrong?
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Nov 17, 2020 10:17
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Orange Devil posted:Liberum Veto, but for all of Europe. But we're all enlightened centrists here who make Correct decisions instead of holding on to our petty and unprofitable grudges 
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Nov 17, 2020 11:47
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At this point current EU members minus Poland and Hungary should just unilaterally should en masse create new parallel institutions to those of EU and leave EU proper and then Poland and Hungary can scream at each other alone at the European Parliament. And don't give members veto power again dumb fucks.
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Nov 17, 2020 12:19
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Celexi posted:At this point current EU members minus Poland and Hungary should just unilaterally should en masse create new parallel institutions to those of EU and leave EU proper and then Poland and Hungary can scream at each other alone at the European Parliament. France vetoes this no-veto clause. 
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Nov 17, 2020 12:22
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Celexi posted:At this point current EU members minus Poland and Hungary should just unilaterally should en masse create new parallel institutions to those of EU and leave EU proper and then Poland and Hungary can scream at each other alone at the European Parliament. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOXIXD0OCg0
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Nov 17, 2020 12:44
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Celexi posted:At this point current EU members minus Poland and Hungary should just unilaterally should en masse create new parallel institutions to those of EU and leave EU proper and then Poland and Hungary can scream at each other alone at the European Parliament. the EU exists to empower markets at the expense of political institutions. it's designed to be as inflexible as possible. this is not limited to the veto thing, without which this level of integration would've been an impossible sell in several countries
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Nov 17, 2020 12:53
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Nissin Cup Nudist posted:What genius made any sort of aid package subject to unanimous agreement It's like someone looked at the US Senate and thought, "this is good, but what if we made it even more dysfunctional and non-democratic".
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Nov 17, 2020 12:56
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i'm pretty sure that the thinking was literally that there wouldn't be a serious political crisis ever again, that liberal democracy was simply ascendant and history over for good, and that consensus in cases like this would be trivial to mobilise until the EU was centralised enough to do away with this sop to outdated tribalism tbh it's not a completely absurd belief, it's very strange that it's so hard to find a baseline of agreement to something this obviously necessary
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Nov 17, 2020 13:33
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V. Illych L. posted:the EU exists to empower markets at the expense of political institutions. it's designed to be as inflexible as possible. this is not limited to the veto thing, without which this level of integration would've been an impossible sell in several countries tbf countries that keep banging on about ARE SOVREIGNTY should just not be in the EU until they accept that being proudly poo poo only makes them poor and irrelevant.
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Nov 17, 2020 13:53
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Basically give the EU the powers that Brexiters imagine it has plus a parliament that actually does stuff, then it might be less dysfunctional
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Nov 17, 2020 13:58
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I still don't get why you start a project like the EU then kneecap it right at the start and keep kneecapping it instead of making it viable. I get what V. Illych says, I do. But it just seems extremely shortsighted and naive to believe that liberalism was the endresult and fascism and the like was gone forever and no one would ever ever ever disagree again.
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Nov 17, 2020 14:07
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An insane mind posted:I still don't get why you start a project like the EU then kneecap it right at the start and keep kneecapping it instead of making it viable. I get what V. Illych says, I do. But it just seems extremely shortsighted and naive to believe that liberalism was the endresult and fascism and the like was gone forever and no one would ever ever ever disagree again. Is there anything that better describes liberalism than short sighted and naive? They really believed that End of History bollocks after the fall of the USSR. Tremendous hubris but that's the liberals for you, the incredible lack of foresight and understanding of human beings.
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Nov 17, 2020 14:17
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Because the point wasn't so much liberalism as what VIL said a couple posts above, to empower markets at the expense of all else. Liberalism itself isn't particularly crucial to neoliberalism, in fact neoliberals love it when a strong state or supernational authority crushes all left opposition and pushes the worst unpopular neoliberal reforms. besides that, going past a certain level of wealth polarization and consolidation of actors the inherently authoritarian nature of the neoliberal state becomes apparent, as the object of state power increasingly becomes to enforce the status quo and work as a ratchet against the possibility of rollback reforms, as opposed to providing public goods for the collective or to rectify the numerous imbalances of society. The increasing securitization is necessary to protect the unjust equilibria it has built, and none of the policing capacity developed actually goes into keeping in check the monied interests, to whom it is increasingly subservient. mortons stork fucked around with this message at 14:24 on Nov 17, 2020 |
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Nov 17, 2020 14:18
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The EU grew out of the Coal and Steel Community, so what would you expect? Overall this is still in pretty early stages of integration and you can't really force it when you've got a bunch of countries with their own ideas of how things should be. I'm afraid it's probably going to take some unfortunate compromises like those that at the foundation of the US to get it moving along.
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Nov 17, 2020 15:00
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suck my woke dick posted:Basically give the EU the powers that Brexiters imagine it has plus a parliament that actually does stuff, then it might be less dysfunctional depending on the brexiteer, the EU genuinely does have a lot of those powers - especially the power to neuter old-school active politics which people used to try and improve their lives. people don't believe in social democrats anymore for very good reason - what the ideology promises these days is clearly ludicrous and impossible, or so watered down that there's no point in going for it the EU's brilliance has been to ensnare everyone in this consumer role where we really do have a lot of poo poo to lose by empowering ourselves and others as workers (whatever that would even look like in a EU which systematically disenfranchises and alienates working classes in various ways) - and so there's no serious counterforce to encroaching financial capital the EU was a huge mistake from start to finish
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Nov 17, 2020 15:36
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V. Illych L. posted:tbh it's not a completely absurd belief, it's very strange that it's so hard to find a baseline of agreement to something this obviously necessary lol no it's not As soon as something is politically absolutely necessary it is also the perfect vehicle to attach all your other bullshit which you know has no chance of getting passed otherwise to. Because clearly your opponents wouldn't dare vote down something so absolutely necessary right? This is like, super basic "power in practice in parliamentary democracy" type stuff. So liberals obviously got it wrong because they understand jack poo poo about power.
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Nov 17, 2020 16:05
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Well liberals literally are in power.
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Nov 17, 2020 16:20
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Cingulate posted:Well liberals literally are in power. yeah but they're bad at doing anything with it
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Nov 17, 2020 16:28
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suck my woke dick posted:yeah but they're bad at doing anything with it
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Nov 17, 2020 16:32
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If the EU continues to compromise on principles just because some shithead countries like Poland and Hungary, who are only in it for the money anyway, don't want to stop hunting gays in the streets or whatever, then it's worthless. All it says is that the EU has no common principles and all this talk is a sham. And then next time anyone needs support, you can stop wondering why certain countries don't want to pay their share toward this useless piece of bureaucracy. Instead, remake a smaller association of countries with a real democracy, an actual fiscal union and an actual constitution that includes all the valuable principles that EU countries apparently do not want to adhere to. The EU can stay a free trade zone or whatever it is supposed to be now.
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Nov 17, 2020 16:34
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Ein Europa der zwei Geschwindigkeiten.
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Nov 17, 2020 16:35
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Haramstufe Rot posted:If the EU continues to compromise on principles just because some shithead countries like Poland and Hungary, who are only in it for the money anyway, don't want to stop hunting gays in the streets or whatever, then it's worthless. but being an antidemocratic mess is a huge part of the point!!!
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Nov 17, 2020 16:37
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Haramstufe Rot posted:Instead, remake a smaller association of countries with a real democracy, an actual fiscal union and an actual constitution that includes all the valuable principles that EU countries apparently do not want to adhere to. The EU can stay a free trade zone or whatever it is supposed to be now. Isn't this sort of what GERMANIA desires? Boot out the lazy, shifty-eyed southerners / easterns and have a strong fiscal union with France and some of the northern yes-men states? How this remains a project for peace and understanding is left as a home exercise, one presumes.
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Nov 17, 2020 16:41
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Cingulate posted:Ein Europa der zwei Geschwindigkeiten. Let's face it, if we do this now, instead of later or never, Poland and Hungary will sooner or later replace their lovely governments so the new one can come crawling back for all that sweet, sweet EU-money. If we let them get away with everything, sooner or later the EU will collapse and they won't get any money from us anymore, anyway. Right now is even best chance for some hard knocks, as the UK demonstrates what will happen to countries trying to go alone, without protection from the EU.
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Nov 17, 2020 16:43
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Cingulate posted:Maybe they simply have different goals (maybe subconsciously ...)? Maybe the real lib goal includes to not exert too much (state) power? Wouldn’t that actually be a standard leftist critique? That'd just mean saying the whole point of liberalism is not to exercise state power effectively (corporate power is ok though). Which yeah leftists would agree with. Cingulate posted:Ein Europa der zwei Geschwindigkeiten. This but unironically, and also countries in the slower track don't get a veto 
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Nov 17, 2020 16:44
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Europe in my (admittedly stupid and hopeful view) is only viable if we make life better for everyone. You can't cut off the south of Europe because they have it the hardest, you can't cut off the Eastern European countries because strongmen have muscled their way into power. You can't leave good people to their fates because bad people manage to abuse the system. But I honestly don't know how to fix the EU as it is now. Take away the veto? but that could probably be vetoe'd.
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Nov 17, 2020 16:46
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suck my woke dick posted:That'd just mean saying the whole point of liberalism is not to exercise state power effectively (corporate power is ok though). Which yeah leftists would agree with. suck my woke dick posted:This but unironically, and also countries in the slower track don't get a veto 
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Nov 17, 2020 16:48
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An insane mind posted:Europe in my (admittedly stupid and hopeful view) is only viable if we make life better for everyone. You can't cut off the south of Europe because they have it the hardest, you can't cut off the Eastern European countries because strongmen have muscled their way into power. You can't leave good people to their fates because bad people manage to abuse the system. But I honestly don't know how to fix the EU as it is now. Take away the veto? but that could probably be vetoe'd. One way could be to help Macron make his dream of an European Army a reality. Then make that army strong enough and loyal only to the European institutions, and then we could just smash injust strongmen regimes like the US did in WW2. That would be a way, at least.
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Nov 17, 2020 16:49
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