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sebmojo posted:Yeah we are at the point where the gimmick should be a thesis statement for the whole work That's true if this dungeon/the fight with Xykon are actually the climax of the story, but I don't think that's true. There's still all that stuff with a world inside the Snarl, which doesn't seem like something they would be able to explore (in either a literal or a story-thematic sense) in the middle of fighting Xykon. And I think another big theme of the story, aside from "poorly-adjusted people helping each other get better" is "lovely parents can gently caress you up" which doesn't really fit with either Xykon or Redcloak, but does fit with the Snarl/the gods. Plus the fiends have two uses of V's soul left - okay, one of those would be dramatically appropriate to use in the fight against Xykon, but what about the second one? I think this is a shell game in a narrative sense - "defeat Xykon" has always been presented as the ultimate goal of the characters and the strip, but this isn't actually going to be the climax. Tarquin was right - Xykon is just a sub-boss.
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Nov 18, 2020 19:41
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It's a JRPG. You take down the Big Bad, only for the real BIG BAD to come onto the scene. May, or may not, invovle killing a/the god(s)
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Nov 18, 2020 19:46
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This may be a bit meta, but I've always the story in terms of "Roy v. Xykon" ever since I read Rich's notes in the collected "Blood Runs in the Family" collection (the Tarquin arc). In it, Rich points out that Tarquin has badly misread the story he is in - he thinks he's in the story of Elan and he, and their confrontation. Instead, Rich says that he's in a different story - "that of Roy's quest to defeat Xykon" or something along those lines. Given that, and maybe I'm reading too much into it, I do think the ultimate conclusion, climax, will be Roy v. Xykon, and everything else will be build up to that.
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Nov 18, 2020 19:52
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That's fair, but I've personally always liked the idea that Roy will never fight Xykon again. The climax of his arc happened back at the Godsmoot, when he proved he could indeed trounce an undead spellcaster who should vastly outclass him. Durkula was also a fight with far deeper emotional stakes than anything Xykon can bring to bear; Roy has even already rejected his father's unfinished business and devoted himself to stopping Xykon solely to save the world. I can't predict what the actual big emotional crutch of this final arc will be, but it is far more likely to involve Redcloak and Durkon/O-Chul or the Snarl, or even the IFCC, the gods, or some other mostly bystanders than Roy and Xykon.
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Nov 18, 2020 20:03
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Ponsonby Britt posted:That's true if this dungeon/the fight with Xykon are actually the climax of the story, but I don't think that's true. There's still all that stuff with a world inside the Snarl, which doesn't seem like something they would be able to explore (in either a literal or a story-thematic sense) in the middle of fighting Xykon. And I think another big theme of the story, aside from "poorly-adjusted people helping each other get better" is "lovely parents can gently caress you up" which doesn't really fit with either Xykon or Redcloak, but does fit with the Snarl/the gods. Plus the fiends have two uses of V's soul left - okay, one of those would be dramatically appropriate to use in the fight against Xykon, but what about the second one? Good points.
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Nov 18, 2020 21:01
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I think there's too much we don't know about the Snarl and the world within it to be able to realistically predict where this is going.
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Nov 18, 2020 21:06
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ultrafilter posted:I think there's too much we don't know about the Snarl and the world within it to be able to realistically predict where this is going. I think that the fight with Xykon isn't going to end here. I think we're going to see the "what the snarl is" question suddenly explode - maybe everyone gets sucked in through the gate - and suddenly all of the players are not just fighting for the Snarl, but fighting within it and trying to figure out what it really is/means.
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Nov 18, 2020 21:10
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Just occurred to me that one thing no-one has done with the Gates is go through them. Why call them gates rather than Seals or w/e?
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Nov 18, 2020 21:13
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It seems plausible to me that the story would go such that the Snarl is figured out, the world is shored up with the Dark One's willing assistance and so on, only for Xykon to barge in and threaten to destroy all of it out of pure spite, allowing him to remain the final boss even if the story doesn't revolve around him - and, really, because the story doesn't revolve around him. The other possilbity is that he destroys the final gate himself, throwing the world into active crisis.
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Nov 18, 2020 21:40
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You're all going to be really shocked when Xykon irrevocably kills Roy next strip. 
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Nov 18, 2020 21:45
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sebmojo posted:Just occurred to me that one thing no-one has done with the Gates is go through them. Why call them gates rather than Seals or w/e? Didn't the psion lady go through one?
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Nov 18, 2020 21:54
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sebmojo posted:Just occurred to me that one thing no-one has done with the Gates is go through them. Why call them gates rather than Seals or w/e? They’re seals placed on portals. That’s the definition of a gate. Something that bars a doorway, particularly on a grand scale, such as one placed on a breach in the walls of reality.
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Nov 18, 2020 21:55
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Cup Runneth Over posted:Didn't the psion lady go through one? No. She scanned the world but she didn't physically go through. It doesn't seem to have worked out too well for her.
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Nov 18, 2020 21:57
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Cup Runneth Over posted:Didn't the psion lady go through one? She stood next to one and did some psychic scanning stuff, which prompted the Snarl to kill her.
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Nov 18, 2020 21:58
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blastron posted:She stood next to one and did some psychic scanning stuff, which prompted the Snarl to kill her. You can see her colleague (Myron?) pulling her away at the end, so maybe she lived.
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Nov 18, 2020 22:01
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:They’re seals placed on portals. That’s the definition of a gate. Something that bars a doorway, particularly on a grand scale, such as one placed on a breach in the walls of reality. Yes, but if you don't ever want to go through it then why would you call it a gate? Gates open, by definition. Its intent seems more like a capstone on a shaft. The Psion scanned through the Rift, after the OOTS destroyed the gate. sebmojo fucked around with this message at 22:15 on Nov 18, 2020 |
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Nov 18, 2020 22:02
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ultrafilter posted:You can see her colleague (Myron?) pulling her away at the end, so maybe she lived. Yeah, I am not sure she's dead either. I also wouldn't count Tarquin's team entirely out of the plot either, they are high level and resourceful enough to control an entire geographical area through conspiracy, and that breach is a very interesting feature. Elan might have thrown a B-Team at Tarquin (which I hope we see in one of the books), but if the Order goes into the Snarl-world I expect them to see some of Tarquin's associates already exploring the place.
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Nov 18, 2020 22:15
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:That's fair, but I've personally always liked the idea that Roy will never fight Xykon again. The climax of his arc happened back at the Godsmoot, when he proved he could indeed trounce an undead spellcaster who should vastly outclass him. Durkula was also a fight with far deeper emotional stakes than anything Xykon can bring to bear; Roy has even already rejected his father's unfinished business and devoted himself to stopping Xykon solely to save the world. Remember, Belkar's arc gets capped in this book as well.
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Nov 18, 2020 22:43
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sebmojo posted:Yes, but if you don't ever want to go through it then why would you call it a gate? Gates open, by definition. Its intent seems more like a capstone on a shaft. The gates are traversable by design; Redcloak's ritual only works on an intact gate, and allows the Snarl to attack whoever The Dark One targets through it. Why they are is a question I cannot answer, but whoever came up with the Order of the Scribble's sealing ritual intended for them to be pervious. Perhaps they were hoping to be able to enter the Snarl's realm if they ever came up with a defense against it? E: ZearothK posted:Elan might have thrown a B-Team at Tarquin (which I hope we see in one of the books) This is the final book. If they show up, they will show up here. Unless Rich is gonna write more side stories, but he tends towards prequels more than anything. I guess That's the Spirit and Scruff and Tumble were kind of side stories, but they appeared in a book otherwise devoted to character backstories. Zulily Zoetrope fucked around with this message at 22:49 on Nov 18, 2020 |
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Nov 18, 2020 22:44
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sebmojo posted:Yeah we are at the point where the gimmick should be a thesis statement for the whole work The dungeon can only be defeated by a healthy father/son bond!
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Nov 18, 2020 22:47
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ZearothK posted:Yeah, I am not sure she's dead either. I also wouldn't count Tarquin's team entirely out of the plot either, they are high level and resourceful enough to control an entire geographical area through conspiracy, and that breach is a very interesting feature. Elan might have thrown a B-Team at Tarquin (which I hope we see in one of the books), but if the Order goes into the Snarl-world I expect them to see some of Tarquin's associates already exploring the place. They're high level and resourceful, but they also aren't Tarquin's minions. Tarquin already blew his favours and bribes to get them to play along at chasing Elan, they have no reason to go to an entirely different continent so that he can make a dramatic entrance in a fight that doesn't matter to them. And Tarquin solo isn't that big of a deal, he's a strong fighter who they probably can't fight one on one but they don't need to fight him one on one. I think he's gone until the epilogue unless Laurin's fate and/or information is somehow important to how they approach the snarl.
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Nov 18, 2020 23:01
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:The gates are traversable by design; Redcloak's ritual only works on an intact gate, and allows the Snarl to attack whoever The Dark One targets through it. exactly, just interesting is all, and it's been there the whole time.
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Nov 18, 2020 23:18
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blastron posted:She stood next to one and did some psychic scanning stuff, which prompted the Snarl to kill her. Look at her eyes in the linked strip. It didn't kill her, but it might have possessed her or something.
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Nov 18, 2020 23:24
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:Unless Rich is gonna write more side stories, but he tends towards prequels more than anything. I guess That's the Spirit and Scruff and Tumble were kind of side stories, but they appeared in a book otherwise devoted to character backstories. I meant for a sidebook, yeah. Taciturn Tactician posted:They're high level and resourceful, but they also aren't Tarquin's minions. Tarquin already blew his favours and bribes to get them to play along at chasing Elan, they have no reason to go to an entirely different continent so that he can make a dramatic entrance in a fight that doesn't matter to them. And Tarquin solo isn't that big of a deal, he's a strong fighter who they probably can't fight one on one but they don't need to fight him one on one. I think he's gone until the epilogue unless Laurin's fate and/or information is somehow important to how they approach the snarl. Not for Tarquin, for the Snarl, it is right there in their territory and last we saw they were poking it. I did describe them as associates, not minions. Tarquin himself dismissed it, but Laurin and Myron were very curious.
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Nov 18, 2020 23:27
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The gods might just blow up the universe and try again, and then Erfworld 001 fades in.
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Nov 18, 2020 23:28
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Otherkinsey Scale posted:Look at her eyes in the linked strip. It didn't kill her, but it might have possessed her or something. Nah, that's just a classic " Doom reflected in persons eyes" visual trope.
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Nov 18, 2020 23:41
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I viewed it as more of a "psychic accidentally plugging into a cosmic horror" eyes, which I guess is a somewhat narrower niche.
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Nov 18, 2020 23:48
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Also I'm pretty sure this isn't the final book I remember people bring surprised at the end of the desert arc that there was three books to go.
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Nov 19, 2020 00:49
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The book six author commentary says that book seven is the last one.
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Nov 19, 2020 00:54
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Naw, there's plenty of author commentary that this will be the last book. It may well end up being a good deal longer than any of the previous books, but at the end of it, the story of the Order of the Stick will be wrapped up. I'm sure you can find a quote somewhere on the OotS forums if you dare go there, but for a non-miserable or purchase-only comment, the title of the first strip of the book is Getting Started Getting to the End.
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Nov 19, 2020 01:00
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I think he's going to regret saying this is the last book
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Nov 19, 2020 01:57
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He's been saying it since book 4, so he's had plenty of time to reconsider.
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Nov 19, 2020 02:16
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I wonder if the key to the last gate might involve sacrifice, or possibly avoiding it. Kraagor's death seemed to be a big part in the break-up of their group. Serini, who built her gate as a tribute for Kraagor, could have incorporated that into the protections. If so, it'd play very well into the themes that have been established so far. A consistent theme in the Order's growth (except Durkon) has been a growing willingness to put aside their selfish desires and risk their own lives for the greater good. Meanwhile, Xykon and Redcloak's biggest character moments to date all involved making very clear that there's absolutely no way either of them would ever consider dying for the other's sake.
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Nov 19, 2020 02:19
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Tenebrais posted:only for Xykon to barge in and threaten to destroy all of it out of pure spite, allowing him to remain the final boss even if the story doesn't revolve around him - and, really, because the story doesn't revolve around him. Naaaah. Xykon would never sacrifice himself for a greater ideal; the only thing he cares about is himself and his own amusement. Like I mentioned before, one problem is that we don't know exactly what Xykon's plans for the gates/rifts are. Supposedly he has some plan to become Emperor of the world by blackmailing everyone with the threat of releasing the Snarl, but that doesn't sound like him, or even doable. It sounds like the sort of plan that Tarquin would pooh-pooh if someone else mentioned it.
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Nov 19, 2020 03:51
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I'm pretty sure Xykon's been lead to believe that he can remotely-deploy the snarl as a weapon anywhere he wants, as a kind of magical WMD.
MikeJF fucked around with this message at 03:58 on Nov 19, 2020 |
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Nov 19, 2020 03:53
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Gynovore posted:Like I mentioned before, one problem is that we don't know exactly what Xykon's plans for the gates/rifts are. I'm not sure he has a plan so much that his skeletonization has rendered him incapable of satisfaction and Redcloak's quest provides a diversion from having to acknowledge that fact.
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Nov 19, 2020 04:58
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Gynovore posted:Like I mentioned before, one problem is that we don't know exactly what Xykon's plans for the gates/rifts are. Supposedly he has some plan to become Emperor of the world by blackmailing everyone with the threat of releasing the Snarl, but that doesn't sound like him, or even doable. It would be entirely in keeping with Xykon to focus entirely on the means and not the ends. Ultimately, he wants a controlled Snarl that he can unleash at will so that he can have a controlled Snarl that he can unleash at will.
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Nov 19, 2020 09:15
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I’m think he has said as much already. I forget the strip, but something along the lines of “you ‘heroes’ are the ones destroying the world. It’s not like I’m gonna destroy it, it still has to exist for me to rule it. Well, maybe unless I’m REALLY bored.” What does he even know about the Snarl? If he knows about the soul destroying bit, it’s perfect for an all or nothing evil scheme; if he succeeds he gets ultimate power, if he is foiled and about to be slain by the heroes, he can get et and cease to exist without having to contend with the big fire below.
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Nov 19, 2020 13:08
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:I’m think he has said as much already. I forget the strip, but something along the lines of “you ‘heroes’ are the ones destroying the world. It’s not like I’m gonna destroy it, it still has to exist for me to rule it. Well, maybe unless I’m REALLY bored.” https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0442.html Bam!
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Nov 19, 2020 14:33
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Noah posted:The gods might just blow up the universe and try again, and then Erfworld 001 fades in. As a massive Erfworld fan, don't you dare put that hex on us Noah!
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Nov 19, 2020 15:31
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