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Fox Cunning posted:It is perhaps the biggest and oldest tradition we got. Complaining about those people ruining everything we love is indeed a big and old tradition of ours.
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Nov 20, 2020 08:17
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Fox Cunning posted:It is perhaps the biggest and oldest tradition we got. I’m sentimental enough to feel that we should keep the word. The word isn’t even christian per se. Also I doubt the the people involved, that is the children, get offended. The jehovas witnesses can suck my julgris as well. I'm still weirded out whenever British or American people refer to tomter/nisser as Santas. One is a mercurial house spirit, the other's a monopolist slave owner.
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Nov 20, 2020 09:03
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Lets do what our ancestors did and sacrifice animals and paint ourselves in their blood instead, as per tradition
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Nov 20, 2020 11:00
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I already get sovs made with duck goop all over my face, so I'd say I'm halfway there.
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Nov 20, 2020 11:20
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Potrzebie posted:Complaining about those people ruining everything we love is indeed a big and old tradition of ours. People being offended on the behalf of others are obnoxious, at least when the people they are advocating for do not give a gently caress themselves. I think those people are ruining stuff for no good reason in the aforementioned scenario at least. The sort of people riled up by such things are also very obnoxious and I would prefer if I didn’t have to read their ramblings on my various feeds. Just let Jul be, you’re not being generous to anyone by saying it has no worth. You are in fact making for example JWs a target if you’re saying we shouldn’t have Jul for their sake.
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Nov 20, 2020 11:29
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Potrzebie posted:Complaining about those people ruining everything we love is indeed a big and old tradition of ours. Ironically it started with norse complaining about how the christians were ruining yule.
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Nov 20, 2020 11:34
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Grorud, where I live, now has the highest infection rates
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Nov 20, 2020 11:35
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I'm mostly thinking that traditions are fluid and "what we always have done" is mostly a century or two old. Jul as a celebration of Jeebus but with paganism and solstice and pepparkaksgubbar is weird, and adding or removing whatever will probably not make it more or less "genuine". We just always complain when some minority or other asks the schools or whatever to tone down the Christians aspects, or include this other awesome thing from elsewhere. Because we suck and hate change when it comes to our traditions.
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Nov 20, 2020 12:35
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Most modern Christmas traditions were developed by filthy borgare at the start of the 20th century to have things to throw away their increasing capital gains and leasure time on. Caring about them enough to fight other wage slaves makes you a pawn of Wallenberg.
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Nov 20, 2020 12:51
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPveIep0Smo
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Nov 20, 2020 13:22
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I feel like this is headed for "he's just a chimney-sweep" territory.
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Nov 20, 2020 13:33
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https://www.dn.se/ekonomi/hemleverans-av-alkohol-fran-restauranger-tillats-i-malmo/ Moderaterna & Co in Malmö has decided that alkoholmonopolet doesn't apply to them. Can't imagine this surviving the inevitable court case.
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Nov 20, 2020 14:05
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Bring back Julbocken! Edit: Fader Movitz posted:https://www.dn.se/ekonomi/hemleverans-av-alkohol-fran-restauranger-tillats-i-malmo/ Yeah, this is pretty illegal, the fact that this got passed is pretty surprising Kamrat fucked around with this message at 14:18 on Nov 20, 2020 |
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Nov 20, 2020 14:14
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Fox Cunning posted:It is perhaps the biggest and oldest tradition we got. I’m sentimental enough to feel that we should keep the word. The word isn’t even christian per se. Also I doubt the the people involved, that is the children, get offended. The jehovas witnesses can suck my julgris as well. A little while ago there was a satirical article about St. Lucia celebrations being modified to better include Muslims, by removing the live pig from the parade. Because, you know, the pig is traditionally an important element. A depressing number of idiots on Facebook thought it was real.
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Nov 20, 2020 15:33
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Groke posted:A little while ago there was a satirical article about St. Lucia celebrations being modified to better include Muslims, by removing the live pig from the parade. Because, you know, the pig is traditionally an important element. A depressing number of idiots on Facebook thought it was real. Is this a Sweden thing? Like the St. Lucia thing we did in Norway we only did in elementary school and was just that some of the girls dressed up in white and one of them wore a crown with Christmas tree lights, then we ate buns. Still have eaten the buns some times in later years. I've come across a fair few Muslims who just straight up celebrate Christmas and do advent calendars. Generally speaking most people don't care alot either way, except they like Christmas and presents. Children especially don't really care, and schools don't have prayers or go to Church any more (we did in the 90s though so it's pretty recent) so like that stuff is gone. If the number of Muslims in Norway was closer to what anti-immigrant people think (in reality it's like 4 % at most) I'd say the solution to concerns about the inclusivity of Christmas would be to the feast at the end of Ramadan a public holiday as well, and just do stuff around that in school as well. Because why not. Of course then you'd see what a war against a holiday really would look like. In reality though the whole War on Christmas thing, especially in Scandinavia, has to be like one of the oldest intances of fake news. It's really just a circlejerk of conern and manufacture outrage, where most people really aren't involved in any way or another.
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Nov 20, 2020 15:46
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I am also Norwegian and so was that satirical article. The joke obviously being that St. Lucia celebrations have never included a pig, live or otherwise, in any capacity. Nevertheless idiots were outraged.
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Nov 20, 2020 16:09
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Kamrat posted:Bring back Julbocken! Local politicians are, surprisingly, often not so bright. And no, pigs are not a part of Swedish Lucia. Lucia tier list in how mandatory they are: S: Lucia, tärnor (girls without the crown) A: B: Star Boys C: D: Tomtenisse, gingerbread men Guys are not highly prioritized. lilljonas fucked around with this message at 17:04 on Nov 20, 2020 |
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Nov 20, 2020 16:55
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Jul is not a celebration of the winter itself. It was always a festival to mark the end of the year and our hopes for the future. Its about endring winter not celebrating it. In pagan, Christian or crass materalistic form the message was never "we love winter". Thats why vinterfest feels cringy to me. Not really worth making a huge fuss about tough. Removing the explicitly Christian stuff in school is Good and frankly more honest. Its been a loong time since Jesus was the reason for the season in Scandinavia. Thats now a fringe opinion.
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Nov 20, 2020 16:56
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lilljonas posted:Local politicians are, surprisingly, often not so bright. This is true but I still thought they would be smarter than this In other news, this bar-chain is trying to get around the new rules by changing time zones and declaring their own country, I hope this is a joke. https://www.svt.se/nyheter/lokalt/halland/efter-alkoholstoppet-barkedjan-andrar-tidszon-for-att-ha-oppet-pa-natten
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Nov 20, 2020 17:04
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the thing is, though, that even though specific instances are often revealed as fake, the general trend of dissolution of common rituals is very real. you mentioned the removal of church services etc, which used to serve that function back when we were an officially christian country. as the more obviously outdated stuff goes away, people start worrying about the things they care about and become hypervigilant about the things they actually want to preserve. the dissolution of commonalities in the name of pluralism is a very real trend, and the baseline opposition to it should be taken much more seriously than it usually is. there's plenty of fake news and hyperbolic outrage about it, but there's a core of something real and important which genuinely doesn't care that our present iteration of yule is largely a post-war invention so long as it's something to connect generations and to which one can look forward without having to make it problematic. most people can live with weird sects abstaining from these things without issue beyond thinking they're weirdos. it's when the majority has to accommodate those sects that it becomes a sore point. this is a genuine conflict of interests and writing it off as ridiculous whining is deeply unconstructive imo
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Nov 20, 2020 17:05
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as mentioned, this isn't really one of those things where the muslims are the big outliers - most muslims i've talked to have been happy to celebrate some version of yule if for no other reason than to have something to look forward to during the long, dark winter. the people who object to this stuff are mostly puritan sects of various stripes. i'm perfectly happy to keep the official celebration about nisser and the cycles of seasons and suchlike, but imo we should maintain a recognisable celebration with a baseline expectation of participation with our ridiculous ritual tree-murder and garish decorations
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Nov 20, 2020 17:20
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While it is true that the modern holiday season has undergone alot of commodification in the postwar period the tradition does have its roots in our ancient history regarding rituals surrounding midwinter solstice. Besides, it speaks to something nice about treasuring your loved ones in the darkest time of the year. I have never been a fan of seeing it as an overtly christian holiday which is just not true, thankfully we live in a very secular country that has more or less abolished alot of the religious aspects of the holiday season.
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Nov 20, 2020 17:30
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The pagan roots of Christmas celebrations (and this is not just in Scandinavia) have nothing to do with whether or not the holiday is worth treasuring, even if it were purely a Christian holiday (which I almost think you could make some sort of argument for because I would guess that very few of the specific traditions we have surrounding Christmas celebrations go back as long as we might believe, and paganism has been gone from Scandinavia for a long-rear end time, like a thousand years), I'd still say it's worth holding onto because it's a highly treasure common public celebration, characterized by spending time with family and loved ones, with a background theme of generosity and charity. That's a positive thing that's worth preserving, and public holidays themselves are Very Good and should not ever be surrendered. If anything had to go about Christmas I'd pick the commercialized elements surrounding it waaay ahead of the Christian elements.
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Nov 20, 2020 17:49
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There are some elements that probably have continuity with pre-christian traditions, though. Brewing of special beer, for example. Or propitiatory sacrifices to fjøsnissen.
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Nov 20, 2020 17:56
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Groke posted:There are some elements that probably have continuity with pre-christian traditions, though. Brewing of special beer, for example. Or propitiatory sacrifices to fjøsnissen. Probably, but still co-opted into Christian traditions for so long that it doesn't really matter any more. Because if they really were pre-Christian traditions they'd be more than thousand years old. Things don't stay the same over a thousand years.
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Nov 20, 2020 17:57
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Randarkman posted:Probably, but still co-opted into Christian traditions for so long that it doesn't really matter any more. Because if they really were pre-Christian traditions they'd be more than thousand years old. Things don't stay the same over a thousand years.
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Nov 20, 2020 18:32
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A Buttery Pastry posted:That just means they're post-Christianization pagan traditions. Christianity created a new environment for those traditions to evolve in, but they were never converted into Christian traditions - unlike whatever organized worship Christian rites did replace, before those were themselves replaced by Donald Duck. Folk traditions and superstitions are not the same as paganism which is long gone (unless you count modern neo-movements and revivals I guess), though I'd agree with you that they are not strictly Christian.
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Nov 20, 2020 18:35
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Nothing is static, no. Except for every generation insisting that the way things were done in their own childhood is the only true tradition. We do know that the yule beer had some religious significance to the pagans; after adoption of Christianity the brewing continued but with no further religious significance as far as I know. Strictly speaking not Christian traditions then, just traditions allowed to Christians.
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Nov 20, 2020 18:42
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Who gives a gently caress about the dissolution of rituals? I am all for having norms in society, such as paying your taxes and not speaking to strangers on public transportation, but why should I care if someone celebrates the end of winter or Jesus or whatever the gently caress? It does not concern me, nor does it concern society. The reason why it is a right wing or religious talking point is because they conflate the ritual with white and Christian identity respectively, which would be dumb even if those things were not bad.
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Nov 20, 2020 19:19
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Randarkman posted:Folk traditions and superstitions are not the same as paganism which is long gone (unless you count modern neo-movements and revivals I guess), though I'd agree with you that they are not strictly Christian.
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Nov 20, 2020 19:20
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Sacrificing to minor spirits is definitely paganism. Common as hell in a lot of countries across the planet, too. Very often as a remnant tradition from otherwise extirpated paganism.
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Nov 20, 2020 19:32
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thotsky posted:Who gives a gently caress about the dissolution of rituals? I am all for having norms in society, such as paying your taxes and not speaking to strangers on public transportation, but why should I care if someone celebrates the end of winter or Jesus or whatever the gently caress? It does not concern me, nor does it concern society. The reason why it is a right wing or religious talking point is because they conflate the ritual with white and Christian identity respectively, which would be dumb even if those things were not bad. having commonalities in a societies is Good, imo
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Nov 20, 2020 19:50
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Baudolino posted:Jul is not a celebration of the winter itself. It was always a festival to mark the end of the year and our hopes for the future. Its about endring winter not celebrating it. In pagan, Christian or crass materalistic form the message was never "we love winter". Thats why vinterfest feels cringy to me. Not really worth making a huge fuss about tough. Removing the explicitly Christian stuff in school is Good and frankly more honest. Its been a loong time since Jesus was the reason for the season in Scandinavia. Thats now a fringe opinion. We're gonna miss winter so bad, when global warming kills the last snow and we're all eaten alive by Tsetse flies.
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Nov 20, 2020 19:50
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Groke posted:Nothing is static, no. Except for every generation insisting that the way things were done in their own childhood is the only true tradition. Swedes getting drunk on Christmas and traumatizing their children has to be a tradition by now.
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Nov 20, 2020 21:00
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V. Illych L. posted:having commonalities in a societies is Good, imo Not just good, but inevitable. If none exist, they'll eventually appear, and they might terrible, so any non-terrible existing commonalities are good. Religion may be the people's opiate - but missing from that observation is that people will inevitably take up recreational drugs, and it makes sense to not discard any mostly harmless habits.
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Nov 20, 2020 21:01
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V. Illych L. posted:having commonalities in a societies is Good, imo Why? Like, yeah, if the commonality is being nice to other people or working to better humanity or something, but it is not a Good on the face of it.
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Nov 20, 2020 21:31
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thotsky posted:Why? Like, yeah, if the commonality is being nice to other people or working to better humanity or something, but it is not a Good on the face of it. It can be literature, art, entertainment, gastronomy, etc. In addition there is value to having days assigned to festive activities: it makes scheduling easier, makes better use of public spaces, has a beneficial effect on public orders and humans crave predictability and repetition. Weird holiday rituals divert this basic human need in a way that is less harmful than the emergence of fascism to take advantage of a void in such regularity and predictability. Humans are highly tribal and usually despise chaos and insecurity. Rituals comfort and create tribal identity. This can be co-opted by bad people, but they'll just create such ritual in the absence of existing rituals. I am not saying all such aspects of all human cultures are Good - some are Bad or Ugly. The dream of humans transcending tribalism and irrationality is beautiful, but unrealistic. And with change be inevitable, there is no escaping the conflict created by the stress of cultural evolution and change towards those who do not want change. People who can be chill about such things, while perhaps in the majority here, are in the minority.
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Nov 20, 2020 21:42
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V. Illych L. posted:having commonalities in a societies is Good, imo 
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Nov 20, 2020 22:00
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PederP posted:It can be literature, art, entertainment, gastronomy, etc. In addition there is value to having days assigned to festive activities: it makes scheduling easier, makes better use of public spaces, has a beneficial effect on public orders and humans crave predictability and repetition. Weird holiday rituals divert this basic human need in a way that is less harmful than the emergence of fascism to take advantage of a void in such regularity and predictability. Humans are highly tribal and usually despise chaos and insecurity. Rituals comfort and create tribal identity. This can be co-opted by bad people, but they'll just create such ritual in the absence of existing rituals. I don't have an issue with people having rituals, but they're perfectly replaceable, and people who don't follow em don't generally miss em. Commonalities might have value, but it is relative or context dependent; making a sweeping generalization like this is not only intellectually lazy, but is embraced by reactionaries and conservatives precisely because it's a nice way of furthering their ideology. One could just as well say that diversity in societies is Good, and start loading that concept up with a bunch of liberal values or biotruths if that is more your bag, and plenty of people do. Everyone should be able to see that having things in common, or being different can both be good, but only when they produce something of value; they're not intrinsically good things.
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Nov 21, 2020 01:35
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yes, one can indeed assert that pluralism is a priori Good, which is what the scandi cultural classes have been doing since the late eighties since then, coincidentally, the populist right have been advancing steadily under the drum beat of culture war
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Nov 21, 2020 03:00
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