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IOSM: Interminable Opinionating Smothers Mirth
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Nov 21, 2020 20:29
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PharmerBoy posted:I'm not going to play "just asking questions" with you. If you have a position, state what "right" means to you and why your position fits it. Every philosophy has issues when taken to extremes and edge cases, so its the easy route to say everything is wrong without actually trying to figure out what's right. That's fair. I don't know what's right. I want to hear peoples positions and then interrogate them to try and come to an understanding of them and what they are arguing and why. Like I don't fully know if I agree with the idea of "I want to manage not get rid of this". I hate having OCD, but if other people really enjoy it/ don't want it to go away then why should my idea matter more than theirs? Why is my point of view more valuable, etc. Personally one argument I saw that I found persuasive was the idea that the sheer amount of depression suffered by people at the moment is because things are actually pretty hosed up and instead of trying to treat individual cases as a purely individualistic disease, it should instead be treated as a problem with societies more generally. Now I am trying to weigh up how true those things are vs the more widely held belief that it's a case of brain chemistry and so on.
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Nov 21, 2020 20:48
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My issue with the "why is it a problem if they don't think it's a problem?" line of thought with depression and the like is that it's a condition that affects how you think and often leads to self-destructive behaviors. So is "I don't have a problem with my depression and don't want to treat it" a well-reasoned idea, or is it depression-induced self-sabotage?
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Nov 21, 2020 21:09
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Anyone who says they don’t have a problem with their untreated/uncontrolled clinical depression and can say so honestly is not depressed. Clinical Depression, by definition, impedes function.
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Nov 21, 2020 21:28
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Loomer posted:Anyone who says they don’t have a problem with their untreated/uncontrolled clinical depression and can say so honestly is not depressed. Clinical Depression, by definition, impedes function. But that just loops back to the whole autism spectrum thingamajig. If something causes you a problem how much is that on you to resolve it, vs how much is it on the world to be resolved to accommodate. Khizan posted:My issue with the "why is it a problem if they don't think it's a problem?" line of thought with depression and the like is that it's a condition that affects how you think and often leads to self-destructive behaviors. So is "I don't have a problem with my depression and don't want to treat it" a well-reasoned idea, or is it depression-induced self-sabotage? This is absolutely a valid take.
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Nov 21, 2020 21:37
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No, it really doesn’t. Depressions impacts may need outside help to manage but it isn’t an alternative mode of being. It’s poo poo, plain and simple, because either you fix it or you die early. Not all mental health conditions and states are viable or legitimate modes of being - some are, by their nature, an actual unambiguous problem that actually can be treated and worked through.
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Nov 21, 2020 21:48
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Loomer posted:No, it really doesn’t. Depressions impacts may need outside help to manage but it isn’t an alternative mode of being. It’s poo poo, plain and simple, because either you fix it or you die early. Not all mental health conditions and states are viable or legitimate modes of being - some are, by their nature, an actual unambiguous problem that actually can be treated and worked through. How do I put this. I agree with you, but I want to be able to convince people who might not agree. How would I do that? What could I say to them that would prove that depression or OCD is not an alternate mode but is illegitimate as a way of seeing the world. I am not asking you in particular to provide answers, should make that clear, but to try and understand how it is that people can view things differently. Josef bugman has a new favorite as of 21:54 on Nov 21, 2020 |
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Nov 21, 2020 21:51
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You would probably need to speak to a therapist because doing that is normally a necessary step in treating it.
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Nov 21, 2020 21:53
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Simple: look at the actual impacts in the ability to lead a satisfying life, defined by the person with the condition. Depression shreds that poo poo, regardless of what a given person identifies (unless they’re Schopenhauer). And that’s where we get back to my initial statement that anyone who says their untreated/uncontrolled depression isn’t a problem, and can say so honestly, literally is not depressed.
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Nov 21, 2020 21:54
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I have my issues with ABA - it tends to focus on "fixing" external behaviors rather than the internal experience of an autistic person, there aren't really any long-term studies into how it affects people, it tends to value spoken language over written or signed communications that might feel more natural for the kid, if operant conditioning is so great how come we don't use it more on neurotypical children, etc. Worth noting that the ability to mask one's autism - which is what ABA tends to teach - has been associated with increased depression and anxiety, and that's certainly true in my experience. What's more, while I can't prove that I lack internal motivation and am bad at self-advocating because of ABA, I don't think it helped. (I think I could have been ambidextrous if my ABA therapist hadn't picked a hand for me, but that's a lesser concern.) On the other hand, I don't have a problem with ABA practitioners who route kids away from self-harming stims, respect autistic forms of communication, and will stop a session if a kid gets overwhelmed. I also want to say that my ABA therapist was a nice person and I have happy memories of her. Unlike a lot of people, I don't associate ABA with trauma. Still, my experience doesn't invalidate other autistic people's experience with ABA, and I can certainly understand why people have such a strong reaction. I get that there's a lot of nuance to this. One thing I know for sure: if I have an autistic child, I will do my due diligence about my kid's therapy, ABA or no. If the therapist won't allow me to sit in on sessions, if my kid has no way of stopping a session if they're under too much stress, if they start having emotional problems after starting therapy, or if anything else seems fishy, I'll pull them out. Josef bugman posted:That's fair. You're getting at something important - what's known as the social model of disability. Under the social model, disability is caused by society's failure to accommodate a body or brain difference, not the body or brain difference itself. For example, under the social model, having poor eyesight isn't a disability because it's well-accommodated by our society: most people are screened for it at a young age, corrective lenses are available to all but the very poorest in hundreds of styles, and there's little to no stigma attached to needing glasses or contacts. Having a mobility issue that makes you need a wheelchair is a disability in our society: most of our infrastructure is designed for walking people; able-bodied people often assume wheelchair users are incapable and constantly miserable, which affects how they treat wheelchair users in a bad way. Now, the social model has its deficits - just like the medical model, which says that body and brain differences are problems that need to be cured through treatment and/or gumption. Just as the medical model doesn't accommodate people who don't want their brain or body differences to be "cured," the social model doesn't accommodate people who suffer from pain or emotional turmoil because of their differences. When we're creating policy for disabled people, we need to keep both the social and the medical model in mind. For every kind of disability, we need to think: is this disabled person's suffering really caused by something inherent to how their body or brain works, or it is caused by society's failure to support them? If it's the former, then we need the medical model to treat them. If it's the latter, we need the social model to change that person's environment.
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Nov 21, 2020 21:58
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I know in my case it doesn’t matter how accessible society is, the burNing ache in all my joints and muscles every other day of the week is still going to suck. It’ll just suck less if people aren’t dicks.
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Nov 21, 2020 22:01
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Josef bugman posted:If you didn't think you were right it wouldn't be a position you'd hold though, right? No. You can't jump from personal opinion about oneself to universal truth. If I say "I like chocolate ice cream", the only truth you can glean from that is that it's true that I like chocolate ice cream. You can't even derive my opinions on other flavors of ice cream from that, much less the idea that I believe I'm Objectively Right about chocolate ice cream being good so everyone should like it. When I say "my depression sucks and I'd like to get rid of it" it's neither fair nor appropriate to assume that I believe that should be true of other people.
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Nov 21, 2020 22:20
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Loomer posted:Simple: look at the actual impacts in the ability to lead a satisfying life, defined by the person with the condition. Depression shreds that poo poo, regardless of what a given person identifies (unless they’re Schopenhauer). And that’s where we get back to my initial statement that anyone who says their untreated/uncontrolled depression isn’t a problem, and can say so honestly, literally is not depressed. There are degrees of depression, just like there is for autism. What you're talking about is major depressive disorder, but it's not like everyone without that is totally fine.
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Nov 21, 2020 22:26
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I only just got my ADHD diagnosis this year. I had been thinking I was on the spectrum for many years, though. I'm trying out medication to see if it can help with the traits that have a negative impact on my life, but I'd never want it truly cured. I really enjoy the traits that don't negatively impact me, and they make me who I am. Some people who don't have the same traits might think they're not rthat great from an outsider point of view, but it's my life and I'll do what I want so long as I'm happy. One prime example I like to mention: I wanted to be able to navigate Tokyo by train without getting overwhelmed and shutting down on a platform so I started studying it ahead of time. I went so far with it that I ended up hand-drawing every single rail line in the greater Tokyo area on Google Earth and exported the XML file onto my phone to easily see the most efficient routes when out and about. I even drew lines for trains I knew I'd never use, because I couldn't accept it being incomplete. I spent dozens of hours on it, often spending my entire day working. To some that would be a concerning level of obsession. But for me, I was having the time of my loving life. It was so much fun to research lines and stations and figure our the whole system and I'm proud of my work. I wouldn't ever want to lose that joy and determination. I stopped myself from labelling every station. I knew that was pushing it too far. I usually keep escalating projects until I get to a point where I recognize how absurd it is that I'm even thinking about taking it to that level. I was almost diagnosed OCD until it became obvious that I didn't compulsively do these things to the point they disrupted my quality of life. I do it for fun and a sense of accomplishment. Totally a choice. A couple friends said it was a waste of time and I should just go and enjoy myself rather than be some obsessive over-planner, but if I get overwhelmed by anything, the whole world just turns into static and noise and I can't comprehend anything, my senses stop working, and I can't put together a single coherent thought. My husband has gotten quite good at helping me through those shut downs. Thank gently caress he can snap me back to reality as well as he does, even if it is just taking over for me when I go wall-eyed and start stuttering and shaking. That's enough words. Sorry that was so long. Just felt good to say it somewhere.
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Nov 21, 2020 22:34
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To me, the big difference is this - there's a difference between something that's a disability because of issues interfacing with the environment, and one that's a disability because it makes you feel like poo poo. Autism is often related to an interface with the environment. Things like (non-injurious) stimming and narrow focusing are an issue that could be addressed by changing the interaction with the environment (greater social change) rather than requiring the individual to change. People need to be able to communicate their needs, so the individual may need to learn methods and the environment needs to be flexible in learning different communication methods. We don't need to get rid of what's "wrong" with the person, as long as the person is happy. If the person is happy and able to live a life where they feel valued as a member of society and as an individual, that's what matters. A flexible environment with people who are educated and empathetic towards all people, and which adapts to the needs of people, would eliminate or at least significantly reduce the impact of things like autism, deafness, physical disabilites, etc. Depression, though, is inherently maladaptive. It makes you feel like poo poo, that's a huge chunk of the diagnostic criteria. Not wanting to get rid of it is kind of like not wanting to leave an abusive relationship. It makes you feel lower than dirt, but you've lived with it for so long you don't know how you would live without it. ETA: Picnic Princess, that's a good example of using healthy coping mechanisms. You know what works for you! I just thought of an example of environmental change - bathrooms. People who require assistance toileting often run into issues with bathrooms. They can run into a lot of trouble on a day out - do you hope there's a functioning, clean toilet you and your assistant can fit into? Do you avoid drinking and eating, and risk a kidney infection, so you don't need to use the bathroom? Do you wear a diaper, and risk a UTI and having to sit in your own waste? What if you get too heavy for your assistant to lift, or you need changing and the only option is the filthy floor? Maybe you just only go out for a couple of hours instead of all day, so you can go home to use the toilet. Or, public restrooms could change to be more accessible and eliminate all of those problems. Exampe: http://www.changing-places.org/the_campaign/what_are_changing_places_toilets_.aspx Bonster has a new favorite as of 23:08 on Nov 21, 2020 |
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Nov 21, 2020 22:54
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Pththya-lyi posted:is this disabled person's suffering really caused by something inherent to how their body or brain works, or it is caused by society's failure to support them? If it's the former, then we need the medical model to treat them. If it's the latter, we need the social model to change that person's environment. Yes, this is a very helpful post in general and I wanted to say thank you for helping me understand/ give a name to a thing I keep seeing. Yes, but that means we should ask other people to not be dicks as well. That's fair, but at the same time the person I was quoting did seem to think that it was something that should be cured in all people, based on what they were saying about how "Someone can still believe this but they would be wrong". Not trying to equivocate more just trying to explain. Picnic Princess posted:That's enough words. Sorry that was so long. Just felt good to say it somewhere. Thank you for speaking about this, that is really cool.
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Nov 21, 2020 23:23
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Comparing ADHD and autism to major depressive disorder is comparing non-mood disorders disorders with mood disorders. It's just not going to line up. As someone mentioned, mood disorders by definition impact your quality of life, whereas other behavioral disorders don't necessarily. If you like your life with OCD/ADHD/etc, that's awesome. But it's not going to be the same for 99% of people who have major depressive disorder, anxiety disorders, or other mood disorders. (Not directing this at you, PP, or anyone in particular. Being comfortable with yourself and living a happy life is pretty much the dream.)
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Nov 21, 2020 23:54
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Picnic Princess posted:I'm trying out medication to see if it can help with the traits that have a negative impact on my life, but I'd never want it truly cured. I really enjoy the traits that don't negatively impact me, and they make me who I am. Some people who don't have the same traits might think they're not rthat great from an outsider point of view, but it's my life and I'll do what I want so long as I'm happy. thats how i treat my bipolar and schizophrenia. i enjoy the voices and as long as i know they arent real let me enjoy them. healthy coping habits helped me get rid of most of the bad schizophrenic symptoms i have like having and following a schedule so i remember to bathe etc. bipolar can gtfo though.
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Nov 22, 2020 00:03
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Josef bugman posted:That's fair, but at the same time the person I was quoting did seem to think that it was something that should be cured in all people, based on what they were saying about how "Someone can still believe this but they would be wrong". Not trying to equivocate more just trying to explain. I really suggest you re-read their posts, because either you're reading a lot into what they said or you're possibly conflating two posters.
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Nov 22, 2020 00:05
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Wait... whats autism?
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Nov 22, 2020 00:11
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moving on https://twitter.com/CopingMAGA/status/1330280741654192132?s=20
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Nov 22, 2020 00:11
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Hihohe posted:Wait... a miserable little pile of extra neural connections but enough talk, have at you  
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Nov 22, 2020 00:15
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SneezeOfTheDecade posted:I really suggest you re-read their posts, because either you're reading a lot into what they said or you're possibly conflating two posters. WHOOPS! Yep got confused! I can understand that. I'm just trying to understand people who disagree. That and the whole definition of "happiness" and that whole thing, which is a minefield in and of itself.
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Nov 22, 2020 00:17
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something also to keep in mind regarding all this is that autism has structural components as well as chemical ones and thus can't be "cured" without extensive precise brain surgery and understanding of the workings of the brain far beyond what we have now, so anyone saying they know how to cure autism is 100% full of poo poo
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Nov 22, 2020 00:22
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StillFullyTerrible posted:a miserable little pile of extra neural connections It’s me, the commenter who knows I didn’t come up with this barb that I know is disingenuous and that everyone has heard nine million times before but I’m gonna be the guy who says it the nine million and oneth time anyway
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Nov 22, 2020 00:38
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I know this is something awful but 4 pages about everyone's developmental issues is a little excessive
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Nov 22, 2020 01:14
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snergle posted:thats how i treat my bipolar and schizophrenia. i enjoy the voices and as long as i know they arent real let me enjoy them. healthy coping habits helped me get rid of most of the bad schizophrenic symptoms i have like having and following a schedule so i remember to bathe etc. bipolar can gtfo though. I have hallucinations too, trying to get a diagnosis on that. Mine are pretty easy to tell aren't real, a common on is hearing a large crowd of people outside my house arguing and sounding aggressive enough to start a brawl but I can't make out any words. I can look outside and see that no one is there, and there shouldn't ever be because I live in a quiet suburb with mostly elderly people for neighbours. It would be genuinely way scarier if those sounds were real lmao
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Nov 22, 2020 01:18
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Abby you're married I'm pretty sure nobody else is supposed to do it for you, at least according to your lifestyle. E: Picnic Princess posted:I have hallucinations too, trying to get a diagnosis on that. Mine are pretty easy to tell aren't real, a common on is hearing a large crowd of people outside my house arguing and sounding aggressive enough to start a brawl but I can't make out any words. I can look outside and see that no one is there, and there shouldn't ever be because I live in a quiet suburb with mostly elderly people for neighbours. It would be genuinely way scarier if those sounds were real lmao Boy are you going to have egg on your face when those elderly people start a riot!
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Nov 22, 2020 01:26
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Hihohe posted:Wait... According to one poster it's That One Poster posted:a child who stims by shouting - "They only teach kids to follow instructions"
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Nov 22, 2020 01:29
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Data Graham posted:It’s me, the commenter who knows I didn’t come up with this barb that I know is disingenuous and that everyone has heard nine million times before but I’m gonna be the guy who says it the nine million and oneth time anyway If millennials actually followed that advice, it would be a matter of days before we'd be flooded with "MILLENNIALS ARE KILLING THE COFFEE INDUSTRY" articles.
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Nov 22, 2020 01:34
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Elviscat posted:I told a dude from Texas that Texas was a traitor state because they fly the flag at the same height as the American flag (he wouldn't shut the gently caress up about the Texas independent nation poo poo like it wasn't the obvious legal fallacy it was, I didn't just start out with that). I enjoy letting Texans know that all the special little "privileges" they think they have, like flying the state flag at the same level as the US flag, are things that every state is allowed to do (and people in lots of states do fly their flags at the same height as the US one) and that Texas has exactly zero special snowflake provisions that make it legally different from any other state.
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Nov 22, 2020 02:16
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Data Graham posted:It’s me, the commenter who knows I didn’t come up with this barb that I know is disingenuous and that everyone has heard nine million times before but I’m gonna be the guy who says it the nine million and oneth time anyway What does it say about me that I'm annoyed that they didn't go for the better or at least unique take complaining that millennials aren't just buying a junker for $5 and restoring it over a nice, hot summer like they totally did.
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Nov 22, 2020 02:42
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Soviet Commubot posted:I enjoy letting Texans know that all the special little "privileges" they think they have, like flying the state flag at the same level as the US flag, are things that every state is allowed to do (and people in lots of states do fly their flags at the same height as the US one) and that Texas has exactly zero special snowflake provisions that make it legally different from any other state. Texas is also the only state to fight in two different wars over wanting to keep slaves.
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Nov 22, 2020 02:45
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Data Graham posted:It’s me, the commenter who knows I didn’t come up with this barb that I know is disingenuous and that everyone has heard nine million times before but I’m gonna be the guy who says it the nine million and oneth time anyway i, too, am a goon
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Nov 22, 2020 02:46
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xtal posted:I know this is something awful but 4 pages about everyone's developmental issues is a little excessive I mean, a large majority of the people who are terminally online to the point of hanging out socialising on a dead gay comedy forum are going to be neurodivergent in some way. It's kind of self-selecting.
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Nov 22, 2020 03:08
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I'm just a jerk.
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Nov 22, 2020 03:12
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Why the gently caress is it ALWAYS lattes? Surely there are numerous different things people waste their money on? “Priced out of the housing market? Maybe stop buying so many Walking Dead Funko Pops!” (It’s like there are still people who never got over the trauma of the 90s and learning there is more than one way to drink coffee.) letthereberock has a new favorite as of 03:19 on Nov 22, 2020 |
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Nov 22, 2020 03:17
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letthereberock posted:Why the gently caress is it ALWAYS lattes? Surely there are numerous different things people waste their money on? Because if they said "just stop buying medicine! stop paying bills!" conservatives wouldn't hum in agreement and go about their day.
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Nov 22, 2020 03:21
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letthereberock posted:Why the gently caress is it ALWAYS lattes? Surely there are numerous different things people waste their money on? It has a French name so it must be for sissies. Which, now that I think about it, is really ironic. The coffee that most americans drink is supposed to taste as strong as an Americano, which is the name for watered down coffee that was too strong for Americans in Europe. American coffee culture is already for sissies.
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Nov 22, 2020 03:21
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ultrafilter posted:There are degrees of depression, just like there is for autism. What you're talking about is major depressive disorder, but it's not like everyone without that is totally fine. Oh, I know, I have both major and persistent depressive disorders.
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Nov 22, 2020 03:30
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