|
There are people very pointedly not saying it's good but also in the same breath that we must also be very careful about how we criticise the CCP in a way they do not apply to any other country and it gives me the distinct impression that they would very much like to say that it is good but realise that saying that would get them run out of the thread, and so instead are looking for a sharper wedge to insert. "I'm so authcom lol also maybe they had a reason to do it maybe it was justified wow so random makes u think" does not make me think I am not being bullshitted. That rhetorical approach is not one I have positive associations with. I have no common cause with people who are looking to make apologies for state terror. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 14:23 on Nov 22, 2020 |
#
?
Nov 22, 2020 14:11
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 24, 2024 16:59 |
|
|
You also don't have to look very far in CSPAM to find a fair few people who do run the 'NATO propaganda' line on the persecution of the Uygher either, it's practically the standard Marxist-Leninist position
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2020 14:25
|
|
|
People criticise the CCP government more than say the Myanmarian ir Ethiopian because china is a bigger part of our lives than myanmar or Ethiopia so journalists feel a greater obligation to speak out against their crimes and moral culpability for not doing so. Just because it's also geopolitical advantagous to some crusty old men who forget china has nukes doesn't make it wrong to do.
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2020 14:26
|
|
|
ThomasPaine posted:E: my uncertainty about describing what's happening as 'ethnic cleansing' is that it just seems to make no sense. There are active Uyghur members of the CCP. The language is a recognised minority language. There are dedicated cultural institutions to promote Uyghur culture. All of these things are controlled by the party at some level, but that's why I tend to think its more a heavy handed response to separatism. That's not good, obviously, but it's not exactly ethnic cleansing. That would be like having the Third Reich have Jewish ministers and recognising Yiddish and making Hannukah an official holiday - it just seems absurd. ok so first, this isn't a remotely valid comparison, the nazis had "wiping out the Jewish menace" as a central tenet, possibly the most central tenet, of their ideology. and second, yes, it's all officially written down and recognised, well done, how wonderfully easy that makes it to find them
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2020 14:28
|
|
|
Honestly I'm more concerned about the precedent being set, if we get to the point where the West can declare a country to be committing genocide and that then be accepted as a truism to the point that even questioning the evidence is seen as implicitly supporting it. It's a really toxic culture, whether or not the initial accusation does turn out to be true in the final analysis.
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2020 14:28
|
|
|
Comrade Fakename posted:and for the crime of posting in here we could have punishments ranging from having our social credit score lowered to being thrown into a re-education camp.  Just remembering how I posted in the USPOL thread in January that the novel coronavirus was gonna spread and be bad, and I was accused by a few people of being Sinophobic , welp. China is a land of contrasts, it's nice enough to visit but is so nakedly capitalist it's disturbing. The major Western democracies are, of course, also awful, so all cultural comparison just becomes spidermans_pointing_at_each_other.png
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2020 14:31
|
|
|
Communist Thoughts posted:It was the home office who destroyed them though right? Combine that with the fact that we've resisted any form of national proof or record of who is or is not a citizen as an affront to our traditional English liberties or whatever, and that leaves the Windrush generation in a vulnerable place. Combine that with Theresa May's tough on migrants bullshit and you get what happens. It's a good proof that liberalism is capable of producing the same outcomes as authoritarianism, but without a single mustache twirling villain to point to. It was just assumed that nobody would doubt the citizenship of someone who came from the British West Indies in the 50s and lived here their whole life, until they did.
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2020 14:32
|
|
|
Soricidus posted:I too am eager to live in a country where your posting is literally and unironically a criminal offence Sounds like a dream world tbh Alternatively "a lot of people in this thread who should move to China", pick your fave
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2020 14:33
|
|
ThomasPaine posted:Honestly I'm more concerned about the precedent being set, if we get to the point where the West can declare a country to be committing genocide and that then be accepted as a truism to the point that even questioning the evidence is seen as implicitly supporting it. It's a really toxic culture, whether or not the initial accusation does turn out to be true in the final analysis. Yes we should totally give the benefit of the doubt to a country that has a history of covering up its atrocities. Maybe we should wait until we see Uighur bodies being powerwashed off roads before casting any aspersions.
|
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2020 14:53
|
|
|
ThomasPaine posted:Honestly I'm more concerned about the precedent being set, if we get to the point where the West can declare a country to be committing genocide and that then be accepted as a truism to the point that even questioning the evidence is seen as implicitly supporting it. It's a really toxic culture, whether or not the initial accusation does turn out to be true in the final analysis. The problem with this kind of argument is that many Holocaust deniers also claim to be “questioning the evidence”. Letting them get away with that would also set a bad precedent. Also honestly I don’t have a problem with the burden of proof being on the occupying power to demonstrate that the allegations of ethnic cleansing are false. If China’s restrictions on the press are such that there is any doubt as to what is happening in their colonies, then that seems to me like evidence that they do not deserve the benefit of any doubt.
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2020 14:55
|
|
|
Bearing in mind this is also a country that still restricts pictures and news of Tiananmen Square from being distributed and actively denies that it happened. I cant believe anyone in this thread is actively saying "Well maybe we shouldn't be too quick to judge"
|
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2020 14:59
|
|
|
ThomasPaine posted:I don't like some of the directions the CCP have gone wrt embracing capitalism but as their pandemic response shows there are significant advantages to living in an authoritarian state when things need to get done. South Korea, Taiwan, New Zealand, and many more countries show that having a tyrannical regime is not necessary for an effective response to the pandemic. anyone jumping to the PRC as their go to example is just showing their true colours Nothingtoseehere posted:If anywhere should be shaming western governments, it's places like Taiwan, South Korea and New Zealand. Cerv fucked around with this message at 15:14 on Nov 22, 2020 |
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2020 15:06
|
|
|
South Korea also has a similar population, density distribution, and is effectively an island, with almost all transport via a few ports, so it's a good one to point to for "how did Britain gently caress up so bad?"
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2020 15:11
|
|
|
Guavanaut posted:South Korea also has a similar population, density distribution, and is effectively an island, with almost all transport via a few ports, so it's a good one to point to for "how did Britain gently caress up so bad?" If anything South Korea is in an even worse position in terms of likely spread. Over half of the population is lives in greater Seoul, with a density of ~5,000 people/sq. km, which is about the same as the GLA area. Imagine if the Green Belt had never happened and London had just kept growing until it had absorbed everything from Portsmouth to Cambridge (with half of the remainder packed into Birmingham and Newcastle). Northumbria, the least densely-populated county in the country (300k people in about half the space that Seoul gets 25 million into) has just over 1 death per thousand, SK has managed 1 in 100,000. There is literally no excuse for this but blah blah blitz spirit something something.
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2020 15:41
|
|
|
OwlFancier posted:There are people very pointedly not saying it's good but also in the same breath that we must also be very careful about how we criticise the CCP in a way they do not apply to any other country and it gives me the distinct impression that they would very much like to say that it is good but realise that saying that would get them run out of the thread, and so instead are looking for a sharper wedge to insert. Yep, this is what I was getting at. I'm always running into authcoms who will rush to the defence of countries like China and when called out pull the 'oh well obviously they're not good as such but blah blah blah western propaganda at least this at least that' in a way that makes me think that actually they very much think they are good and all the atrocities are totally worth it/not actually real/actually just cracking down on anti-communists. And Jose/TP are very much reminding me of those people right now. I don't think I'm being a oval office about that.
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2020 15:47
|
|
|
You can condemn the actions of the CCP in Tibet and against the Uighurs while also acknowledging that their response to curtailing the virus was very efficient (once they stopped lying about the severity of it to outsiders). It's not about saying that fascism is good, you're saying that neoliberal nepotism is an absolute shitshow and one of the main reason's it's being shown to be so is because a bad system like fascism managed to utterly outperform it. Like the one supposed grace of neoliberalism is supposed to be that the markets will sort it all out because there's so much money flowing through our system, and they just haven't; because all of our labs were busy making recurring treatments instead of vaccines and cures because that's where the profit is. Theoretical neoliberalism should have walked it in, and the fact that it didn't shows you how it doesn't work in reality and it's an utterly cynical and hollow non-ideology. You can absolutely say that the presence of an efficient (mostly) non capitalist system has shown capitalism for the scam it is, without that automatically meaning you stan the deaths of minorities. You can say that one thing that someone did is good without unconditionally validating everything else they've done.
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2020 15:56
|
|
|
Comrade Fakename posted:the crime of posting
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2020 16:02
|
|
|
Jakabite posted:Yep, this is what I was getting at. I'm always running into authcoms who will rush to the defence of countries like China and when called out pull the 'oh well obviously they're not good as such but blah blah blah western propaganda at least this at least that' in a way that makes me think that actually they very much think they are good and all the atrocities are totally worth it/not actually real/actually just cracking down on anti-communists. And Jose/TP are very much reminding me of those people right now. I don't think I'm being a oval office about that. I've not done any of this is why I'm calling you a oval office Lol I'll take the country with no plague over this https://twitter.com/MirrorPolitics/status/1330503216245694468?s=19
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2020 16:04
|
|
|
Jose posted:I've not done any of this is why I'm calling you a oval office Reacting to mention of an extremely authoritarian country with praise for authoritarianism and how much better it is than what we have in the UK is exactly that. In any case I don't think it would warrant being called a oval office to be honest. I'd guess you're still salty about being called a transphobe in the Greenwald conversation a week ago. I'd take the country that hasn't (recently) herded a million people into concentration camps, doesn't have literal Black Mirror style social scoring, and has no risk of me being black bagged for posting on the Something Awful Forums, but each to their own.
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2020 16:18
|
|
|
Not defending the CCP remotely, but the "social credit" system isn't quite as bad as Black Mirror - not yet anyway. https://www.wired.com/story/china-social-credit-score-system/
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2020 16:46
|
|
|
We have a poster who lives in China and regularly posts in this very thread, apparently without yet having been thrown in prison, so I think maybe a few people are getting a little carried away in their rush to distance themselves from being the bad kind of communist.
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2020 16:50
|
|
|
big scary monsters posted:We have a poster who lives in China and regularly posts in this very thread, apparently without yet having been thrown in prison, so I think maybe a few people are getting a little carried away in their rush to distance themselves from being the bad kind of communist. We do also have a poster here who's been, if not thrown in prison, put under considerable pressure by the UK police for posts.
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2020 16:57
|
|
|
goddamnedtwisto posted:We do also have a poster here who's been, if not thrown in prison, put under considerable pressure by the UK police for posts. pretty sure its the one i called a oval office lol
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2020 17:00
|
|
|
These days they throw you in gaol just for saying you're English.
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2020 17:01
|
|
|
Jose posted:pretty sure its the one i called a oval office lol You'll need to narrow that down a bit
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2020 17:03
|
|
|
Vigil for Virgil posted:Bearing in mind this is also a country that still restricts pictures and news of Tiananmen Square from being distributed and actively denies that it happened. It's not about being overly charitable though is it? It's about acknowledging the issues with your sources. There's every chance you come to the conclusion that the CCP is bad anyway, but you have to get there properly. You don't throw out basic critical analysis because you don't like the group being criticised. That shouldn't be controversial.
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2020 17:06
|
|
|
big scary monsters posted:We have a poster who lives in China and regularly posts in this very thread, apparently without yet having been thrown in prison, so I think maybe a few people are getting a little carried away in their rush to distance themselves from being the bad kind of communist. I thought foreigners were treated with a light touch in China precisely to avoid those types of bad stories? It's a known quantity that if you're a domestic citizen the state will go out its way to ruin you for saying the wrong things, even on seemingly innocuous subjects like that MMA guy who was driven out of his industry for saying kung-fu is bullshit
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2020 17:09
|
|
|
Jose posted:pretty sure its the one i called a oval office lol Yep, that's this oval office right here. Amusingly that story gets brought up like clockwork every 6 months or so and has for about the past ten years.
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2020 17:12
|
|
|
Doesn't it get morphed on the retelling to an even grander tale each time?
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2020 17:16
|
|
|
Yeah I've heard some pretty wild interpretations of it. For a good few years I literally didn't post except to correct that story lol. Thankfully for all of you I'm now an active poster though
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2020 17:19
|
|
|
ThomasPaine posted:It's not about being overly charitable though is it? It's about acknowledging the issues with your sources. There's every chance you come to the conclusion that the CCP is bad anyway, but you have to get there properly. You don't throw out basic critical analysis because you don't like the group being criticised. That shouldn't be controversial. it's a question about one's priors, I suppose
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2020 17:26
|
|
|
Jakabite posted:Yeah I've heard some pretty wild interpretations of it. For a good few years I literally didn't post except to correct that story lol. Thankfully for all of you I'm now an active poster though I heard you stole one of Boris' water cannons and at the time you were caught you were plotting to use it to assassinate Danny Boyle and ruin the 2012 Olympics opening ceremony, ripping the very beating heart out of Britain.
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2020 17:26
|
|
|
Just to say, praising China's response to the virus isn't praising fascism by definition because China isn't fascist. Horrible, yes, authoritarian, yes, but not fascist. Also being authoritarian actually puts you in a pretty good position to deal with a pandemic, fascists then gently caress it up because they're incapable of admitting the virus is a threat that they can't just be Strong at.
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2020 17:28
|
|
|
Guavanaut posted:It was a different Home Office in that it was the fabled Last Labour Government. That doesn't make it not racist, Labour had some awful cunts as Home Secretary, but it was just "documents that are 50 years old get destroyed, among which are the boarding cards." Even though the post of Home Secretary is exclusively awarded to the worst fucker in your party, I don't see the racism there. Windrush is entirely down to the Tories being more evil than it was possible to imagine even after 18 years of Thatcherites.
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2020 17:28
|
|
|
Dabir posted:Just to say, praising China's response to the virus isn't praising fascism by definition because China isn't fascist. Horrible, yes, authoritarian, yes, but not fascist. Also being authoritarian actually puts you in a pretty good position to deal with a pandemic, fascists then gently caress it up because they're incapable of admitting the virus is a threat that they can't just be Strong at. The virgin fascist GOP vs the Chad authoritarian CCP.
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2020 17:36
|
|
ThomasPaine posted:It's not about being overly charitable though is it? It's about acknowledging the issues with your sources. There's every chance you come to the conclusion that the CCP is bad anyway, but you have to get there properly. You don't throw out basic critical analysis because you don't like the group being criticised. That shouldn't be controversial. If it were being levvied against a country with no prior examples. Sure. But history plays a big part of this. One that most people can't just go "Well sure they did it x times before, but surely they wouldn't do it again!!!!" Also I've seen enough evidence to make up my mind from people posting videos inside the camps. If that's not enough for you then fine, it's something we disagree on. CyberPingu fucked around with this message at 17:51 on Nov 22, 2020 |
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2020 17:44
|
|
|
Comparing an authoritarian government to neoliberalism which, by definition diffuses responsibility and most of the practicalities of all the heinous poo poo so it's abstracted and obfuscated away to 'the market' or private individuals seems like a false comparison? You don't need camps when 120,00 die from sound economic policy. I'm not commenting on the CCP because I don't know nearly enough but I've heard it's pretty bad? haakman fucked around with this message at 18:41 on Nov 22, 2020 |
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2020 18:34
|
|
|
Jedit posted:Even though the post of Home Secretary is exclusively awarded to the worst fucker in your party, I don't see the racism there. Windrush is entirely down to the Tories being more evil than it was possible to imagine even after 18 years of Thatcherites. Combine that with a lack of a national register that says "this is who is a citizen" because I guess we just non-racistly know who's British, right? and it guaranteed a problem like that if a future Home Secretary decided to start migrant baiting. Every attempt to establish some kind of formal by statute national register seems to be announced in a manner as to be as unappealing as possible to people of all positions, like Brown's.
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2020 18:45
|
|
|
goddamnedtwisto posted:We do also have a poster here who's been, if not thrown in prison, put under considerable pressure by the UK police for posts. One poster was also paid to infiltrate this thread of vile leftists.
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2020 18:45
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 24, 2024 16:59 |
|
|
I can't find what flavour monster munches, if any, they have in China but apparently some of the popular crisp flavours are cucumber, kiwi and blueberry if this information helps anyone make their minds up on which form of government is worse.
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2020 18:46
|
|
