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Ra Ra Rasputin posted:I don't know what campaign nerfs your talking about, but making a campaign harder isn't exactly the same as making it less fun, this isn't a competitive PvP campaign where a 5% nerf and cheese removal means you shelf it and go back to maining Ikit claw and Noctilus. Noctilus or feed
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Nov 22, 2020 04:45
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Captain Oblivious posted:Let me guess, he's mad that you can no longer do infinite money dipshit cheese? Is that what constitutes nerfing them? The thing that only the most boring humans alive were doing? I’m watching it now and at 4:07:xx he’s talking about how it’s most definitely a nerf, but that’s not immediately a bad thing, that CA is trying to not have everything be identical across the factions, so that seems alright? He also hinted at a Throt campaign that isn’t throt + “standard Legend ratlings doomstack” so I’m looking forward to that. e: the biggest nerf seems to be as a result of the changes to supply lines, so lower difficulties won’t really see a difference. Scott Forstall fucked around with this message at 05:05 on Nov 22, 2020 |
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Nov 22, 2020 05:01
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I still miss the old WE redlines that buffed everyone in the army regardless 
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Nov 22, 2020 06:23
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The red lines were hilariously good everyone-stomping fun when you threw in the buffing buildings in your settlements, but I won't mind if that nonsense is toned down because if I want to suplex the game now I just play Repanse, I'm looking forwards to just being a woodlands nuisance. Drycha looks pretty amazing btw, I was wondering if they were going to make her look more armoured up in tree bits but they seem to have stuck with her naked bog-witch look.
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Nov 22, 2020 06:37
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Scott Forstall posted:e: the biggest nerf seems to be as a result of the changes to supply lines, so lower difficulties won’t really see a difference.
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Nov 22, 2020 06:45
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Scott Forstall posted:e: the biggest nerf seems to be as a result of the changes to supply lines, so lower difficulties won’t really see a difference. It's this. Below VH probably won't be meaningfully affected, higher difficulties are going to get tag-teamed by the substantial increase in lord/hero upkeep and the reduction in income.
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Nov 22, 2020 06:56
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Kestral posted:It's this. Below VH probably won't be meaningfully affected, higher difficulties are going to get tag-teamed by the substantial increase in lord/hero upkeep and the reduction in income. As someone who regularly plays on VH difficulty, I'm really glad they decided to double down on the most annoying and least interesting difficulty feature in the game.
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Nov 22, 2020 12:03
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Some parts of the rework feel like the bad old days of conservative design choices. There's no reason why Welf office effects should be that bad, or Talon's of Kurnos being rendered useless or giving Orion and Durthu such mediocre skill trees. Because I'm sure Throt/Moulder will be exceedingly cool and fun with powerful campaign gimmicks.
99pct of germs fucked around with this message at 13:15 on Nov 22, 2020 |
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Nov 22, 2020 13:12
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Lt. Lizard posted:As someone who regularly plays on VH difficulty, I'm really glad they decided to double down on the most annoying and least interesting difficulty feature in the game. Yep. I'm still going for the VH achievements and the thing that makes me want to hang up a campaign is when I've just scratched together 4 armies, only to see an AI faction descend on me with 12.
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Nov 22, 2020 13:58
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i had this stuck in my head and couldn't not draw it sorry
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Nov 22, 2020 14:22
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Tiler Kiwi posted:i had this stuck in my head and couldn't not draw it sorry this is almost exactly what throt did with ghoritch, only ghoritch was too strong and ended up getting promoted over throt which has made him mad forever. can other skaven lords get ghoritch or he is a throt exclusive hero?
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Nov 22, 2020 14:48
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Tiler Kiwi posted:i had this stuck in my head and couldn't not draw it sorry Good job.
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Nov 22, 2020 14:52
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juggalo baby coffin posted:can other skaven lords get ghoritch or he is a throt exclusive hero? If they keep adding penalties to supply lines its kind of annoying to have an office system that provides a bunch of army-only benefits when I'm realistically never going to field more than a handful of armies, and certainly never enough to fill Orion's offices. The only time I've come close to that is VCounts because of their free skeleton armies and -50%/100% upkeep skills on a ton of their Bloodline lords. Also those bonuses seem a bit...marginal. Could be worse, since it is a free effect and doubles when the Hunt is up. Maybe make T1/T2 units not apply to supply lines penalties if they want to discourage doomstacking? I don't know, its weird. Still not going to play above Hard and will be trying to house-rules some general fun for me. On a tangent, would love a Shadowdancer hero as some kind of Witch Elf analog with either shadow spells or gorebull-esque aura since it seems like they just got a Handmaiden of Alarielle except on a stag. e2: Give people in offices some experience per turn while they're not deployed so you can use them as emergency relief forces. Ravenfood fucked around with this message at 15:35 on Nov 22, 2020 |
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Nov 22, 2020 15:02
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Tiler Kiwi posted:i had this stuck in my head and couldn't not draw it sorry In one of the adventures in the 2e RPG the main Skaven nerd bad guy is just randomly throwing his fellow rats into a radiation chamber and adjusting the numbers and carefully writing down whether or not they melt or turn to ash as he tries to give them superpowers like it was a comic book. If he's cornered he jumps in himself, and this time it works and he turns into the Incredible Skaven Hulk and attacks the party. But also all other Skaven because his brain is TOO HOT and he's gotta get blood on it to cool it off that's just how Skaven Hulk works. This is why Skaven have so much content, because you look at that, nod sagely, and go 'that seems pretty normal for Skaven'.
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Nov 22, 2020 15:26
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Supply Lines have always been a dumb mechanic and I would advice everyone to just use a mod that removes it. I feel like this is the port income nerf all over again. I really wish CA would learn that loving with the player's income isn't going to make campaign harder, or prevent players from getting bored and quitting a campaign.
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Nov 22, 2020 15:46
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Offices have always blown and always will, they should just look at the replacement gimmick they gave the Empire with the territories/Elector Counts and figure out variations on that for the WE/VCoast and remove offices entirely. Offices are an unneeded relic of Game 1 launch-times design that the games have largely moved away from anyway.
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Nov 22, 2020 16:04
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I think it's mainly to prevent players from just having a bunch of 1 man combat lords follow their main army around soaking up experience which was my favorite go-to in warhammer 1, a halfway decent combat lord could kill infinity early game units while just costing a tiny bit of upkeep, then eventually they could leave the nest and lead their own armies after they got 20 levels of experience just hanging by the main army.
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Nov 22, 2020 16:04
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Ra Ra Rasputin posted:I think it's mainly to prevent players from just having a bunch of 1 man combat lords follow their main army around soaking up experience which was my favorite go-to in warhammer 1, a halfway decent combat lord could kill infinity early game units while just costing a tiny bit of upkeep, then eventually they could leave the nest and lead their own armies after they got 20 levels of experience just hanging by the main army. Probably, but the problem is that Lord rank is hugely important and for most faction, +Lord rank techs don't make up for the fact. There are probably other, better ways to prevent that though, that aren't as incredibly annoying to deal with. And with Bretonnia, that's absolutely the optimal strategy, especially because it lets you get their insanely good trait from doing reinforcement battles and speeds up Chivalry gain by a lot.
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Nov 22, 2020 16:18
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juggalo baby coffin posted:this is almost exactly what throt did with ghoritch, only ghoritch was too strong and ended up getting promoted over throt which has made him mad forever. except ghoritch wasn't a rat originally, he came from one of the cool factions. chaos.
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Nov 22, 2020 16:45
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Ra Ra Rasputin posted:I think it's mainly to prevent players from just having a bunch of 1 man combat lords follow their main army around soaking up experience which was my favorite go-to in warhammer 1, a halfway decent combat lord could kill infinity early game units while just costing a tiny bit of upkeep, then eventually they could leave the nest and lead their own armies after they got 20 levels of experience just hanging by the main army. It's precisely this. The optimal Bretonnia strategy is to literally do this because paying ~900g + 280 a turn or whatever for a lord is an infinitely better return on investment than the equivalent in low tier units, and you're leveling up lords for later. Without any limitation on it(either by supply lines or army limitations ala TK), there would be no real reason for every player faction to not consist of a locust swarm of empty lords rolling around in a ball, which is both annoying and tedious to control on the strategic map as well as providing a pretty strong disincentive to actually use low tier units.
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Nov 22, 2020 16:45
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Just use a tk like army limit system if they want to force you to not have too many stacks, I'd honestly prefer that to supply lines.
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Nov 22, 2020 16:57
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Eimi posted:Just use a tk like army limit system if they want to force you to not have too many stacks, I'd honestly prefer that to supply lines. Reduce supply line penalties by owning province capitals or give a threshold which causes it. Make garrisoned armies not count. Give armies a radius which causes supply line penalties if you have too many close together, to actually represent supply issues when you cram too many together (this one probably sucks a lot). There are a lot of ways to prevent this single lord-spamming armies that aren't as annoying as just ramping up supply lines. Reducing the incentives for it (like reducing exp gain for reinforcements) or increasing Lord recruit rank bonuses so it's less necessary) would also work. Or make melee lords less good off the bat and require a bit more investment, like caster lords.
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Nov 22, 2020 17:13
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Kestral posted:Boy, that Legend of Total War review of the wood elf changes is disappointing, and that guy of all people should know. Those really are straight-up across the board nerfs at the campaign level. Guess I'll be waiting for the inevitable mods that undo some of this poo poo, so that we can have a Wood Elf faction that both has interesting campaign-level gameplay and isn't crippled at higher difficulties. Nah this is dumb, unless you can only enjoy the game by min max cheesing all the fun out like he does. Ofc anything is going to be a nerf compared to an exploit which let you field infinite stacks of tree men for basically free.
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Nov 22, 2020 17:42
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I do wish it was easier to make money and see combinations. I prefer not having to fight sieges over and over.
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Nov 22, 2020 18:07
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:except ghoritch wasn't a rat originally, he came from one of the cool factions. chaos. this is merely a taunt, meant to inspire anger. it is working
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Nov 22, 2020 18:11
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:he came from one of the cool factions. chaos. Get a loada dis git ^^
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Nov 22, 2020 18:17
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:except ghoritch wasn't a rat originally, he came from one of the cool factions. chaos. his brain was from chaos, his body was from throt also someone earlier was saying CA should just make every faction as cool as skaven, i would like that but it seems impossible. there is only so much you can do with generic elves to make them interesting. it's not like they play horribly its just theyre very boring as characters its easy to do grom's cauldron or throt's flesh lab as an idea, but, idk, 'tirion's bucket of manly tears' or 'imrik's noble insult assembler' don't have quite the same ring to them.
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Nov 22, 2020 18:49
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Choyi posted:Nah this is dumb, unless you can only enjoy the game by min max cheesing all the fun out like he does. Ofc anything is going to be a nerf compared to an exploit which let you field infinite stacks of tree men for basically free. That's not one of the nerfs he's complaining about. He's mostly concerned with removing all the +relations techs, and partly the offices being poo poo. Also the Talon of Kurnos trait getting nerfed.
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Nov 22, 2020 19:06
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They nerfed Wood Elves raze income, heavily nerfed the port income increase research from 400% to 100% port income, they destroyed outpost income, nerfed resource income, and increased lord/hero upkeep in general (Orion went from 275 pre dlc to 715 in the dlc). What Legend was talking about was that on VH/L it will be really hard to ever have more then 2 stacks, until so late in a campaign that most people rarely reach.
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Nov 22, 2020 19:36
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juggalo baby coffin posted:his brain was from chaos, his body was from throt They're not generic elves tho, they're Warhammer elves. Teclis is elf George W Bush but he's been doing it for hundreds of years, and many humans consider him something like Prometheus. I can imagine an amazing campaign for him stealing boat and undercity mechanics. Teclis' goal is to keep the "order" factions in power, and he and his lords sail around in boat hordes attacking settlements lost by "order" and giving them back to their rightful owners, but leaving "elven embassies" in each settlement they are sadly forced to save. Some settlements, he gets to be kingmaker and change world relations. "Marienburg? Frankly... I think Louen would be a better owner than you, Karl." The elves aren't as openly wacky as skaven but they are loving amazing when you remember that they also are in Warhammer. e: and the elven embassy building effects get better if you have good relations with the owning faction! i actually want to play this campaign. Edgar Allen Ho fucked around with this message at 19:55 on Nov 22, 2020 |
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Nov 22, 2020 19:39
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The Elf CIA absolutely had a hand in making Marienburg 'independent' entirely to gently caress over the Empire as a naval/mercantile power and when the Empire tried to object, they sent in the Marines. Elf United Fruit is something they could really lean into.
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Nov 22, 2020 19:43
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Nerfing raze income sucks if true because I liked the idea of being a fickle neighbor and occasionally just razing some nearby folks for some cash infusions. Shame, it helped differentiate the WE campaign a bit. I won't complain until I get to play it though, because maybe there are some other techs/stuff that mitigate upkeep a bit.
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Nov 22, 2020 19:44
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Wood elves utilize the dead invaders of their forests as fertilizer, which they use magic to enhance further to create (lore wise) stronger tree spirits that absorb the essence of the dead race that fertilized it. You could make a pretty cool mechanic based on that for at least one of the lords. Grind down kills of a race into fertilizers that make your tree monsters stronger in x ways, like orcs making them stronger, skaven giving them poison or what not. They also utilize a lot of ritual magic that just isnt represented. Same with Slaan and the Lizardfolk. Slaan can teleport entire armies across the world, create chasms that swallow entire cities, manipulate the weather so completely that they leaving regions in eternal darkness, etc. Then theres all the spawning pool settings, magically enhanced spawning pools and similar things. You could easily make cool rear end mechanics out of any of these things.
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Nov 22, 2020 19:46
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Someone on the subreddit make a big post on this topic of Skaven favoritism if you want to check it out. Basically the differences between a Malus faction and a Malekith faction is minimal when you get down it, both would use similar units/similar tactics in battle/similar goals/slavery is awesome, the major differences come from them as individuals. For the Skaven it's completely different each Skaven Clan is ridiculously different from another major Skaven Clan, in terms of everything essentially. Also GW clearly favored Skaven, because of how popular they were/are and how much praise they get/got for such a unique fantasy race, it's understandable they'd show a bit more love to them.
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Nov 22, 2020 19:47
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It wouldn't surprise me if it also comes down to the devs personally being interested in the Skaven and some other factions more than they are High Elves or Lizardmen which obviously isn't an excuse, just like, a thing that affects how they develop stuff potentially.
thebardyspoon fucked around with this message at 20:22 on Nov 22, 2020 |
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Nov 22, 2020 19:55
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skaven are like the empire in that they have a huge variety of units and army compositions, vs more focused factions like lizardmen or elves.
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Nov 22, 2020 20:07
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The wood elf faction(s) are absolutely not boring and generic d&d elves. Having more interesting mechanics for the rats and goblins is just a failure of imagination.
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Nov 22, 2020 21:16
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juggalo baby coffin posted:also someone earlier was saying CA should just make every faction as cool as skaven, i would like that but it seems impossible. there is only so much you can do with generic elves to make them interesting. it's not like they play horribly its just theyre very boring as characters Empire went from being what it was at Game 1's launch to the place it is right now. The pulled together Norsca pretty much out of thin air. They can make any of the boring factions/LLs better if they applied themselves to the problem, the issue here is if they care to or if it makes sense financially, not "only X faction can be cool, conceptually". As if they couldn't do something with the Elves' penchant for trade, or interactions/incentives to interact with the colonies, or something to do with the fact that they're one of the prime magic factions in the setting, or any other number of things. Hell, the angle CA went for was "diplomancy" and a focus on the island itself, you telling me they couldn't get a system similar to the Elector Count /Territory thing the Empire got but themed around Ulthuan being in Elven hands? They dipped their toes in that when they added Alarielle's whole "purity of Ulthuan" shtick. Seriously this excuse of "they can't do ANYTHING with this faction, that's just a fact" is so drat weak in a fantasy setting.
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Nov 22, 2020 21:49
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Like, all these cool LL mechanics the Skaven get? Peel off the layer of fluff and it's just mechanics describable as, for example "Get Resource X in order to obtain special custom units. You get Resource X by winning fights, through buildings, through tech and through dilemmas. Use it to put more modifiers on your custom units. If you put too much, you start getting penalties. You can recycle modified units to get Resource X back." That Throt, right? But you could easily, EASILY adjust the fluff and have the EXACT SAME SYSTEM for a number of other factions. This could work for Nosca (God's Favor, Mutants, Sacrifices), Warriors of Chaos (Same as Nosca), Vampire Counts (Necromancers stitching together Frankenstein/Zombie type abominations, pulling them apart for parts), Vampire Coast (Call it Manaan's Favor, have it focus on sea monster units or undead "blessed" by him), Beastmen (Same as Nosca/WoC), Tomb Kings (necrotects playing with creating "new" constructs, relying on the waning power of their fading gods, hence the risk of failure), Dark Elves (they have an entire faction of beast/monster breeders!), etc... Forget about the fluff, that comes AFTER you figure out what a cool mechanic could be, because with comparably little work you can probably get any system to click for just about any faction. e.: I remember reading/hearing somewhere that this is how Nintendo does new in-house game projects; the lead/team comes up with a purely mechanical idea, and only AFTER that mechanics prototype/idea gets green-lit do they discuss which IP will be assigned to it. The game itself, mechanically, always comes first. KazigluBey fucked around with this message at 22:12 on Nov 22, 2020 |
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Nov 22, 2020 22:09
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I'm going to disagree with the general opinion and say I don't like the way the Skaven DLC has been handled, not because they're so pro-Skaven, but because of how they basically heavily encourage you to limit your roster. They have some interesting mechanical effects, and the map effects are neat. I think the Eshin DLC has been the most varied, but the general pattern has been "introduce units and a Lord that buffs those units to insane degrees so you can just doomstack those units". Like, doomflayers and rat ogres basically fill the same army niche, but Ikit buffs flayers (and they're better anyway) so why would Ikit bring rat ogres ever? Ikit only needs to bring units from his DLC, plus maybe stuff from Sniktch's that's been designed to work with his upgrades, and he's totally fine. He doesn't need to interact with most of his factions' units. Same with Eshin to a lesser extent, and it looks like Throt will be the same way. If Gelt was a DLC Lord now, he'd give all free company +100% AP damage, double the explosion damage of outriders and rocket batteries, give handgunners +50% damage, and +20% ward save for steam tanks and war wagons or some poo poo. You'd never need to build any infantry or shock cavalry at all. Franz would give absurd buffs to greatswords, Reiksgard, and make state infantry free or some poo poo. Volkmar would give flagellants Ungrim's slayer effect, enable universal recruitment of KotBS, and give them +60 charge and some ward save or something. There's giving units and buffs to encourage and fill niches, and then there's just giving each LL a wildly overpowered niche such that you never really need to engage with anything else. I think the Skaven stuff is neat. I think it's a bit of a shame that they've balanced the DLCs that you never actually miss the other LL's stuff because you just have your own themed flavor of it. They feel like different factions because they effectively are, just by massively supercharging one aspect of the faction such that you never actually need anything else. You could remove all of Eshin, Moulder, and Pestilens units from Ikit's roster and it would barely matter. I don't think that's great design, honestly. That's fun, but I still like the more balanced rosters and just leaning a bit more into niches rather than just all-in on one or two units per Lord. Ravenfood fucked around with this message at 23:27 on Nov 22, 2020 |
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Nov 22, 2020 23:22
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